The Matrix 4K UHD (1999)

[RockySpectrum]

Originally Posted by motorheadache95

Ok, so I went to go see a vintage 1999 35mm print...

Hello!
I am about to see the UHD, and while setting it up and checking, I have noticed the HDR version (both HDR10 and DV) to be MUCH darker than previous releases. The shadows seem almost pitch black often.
Is it the case with 35mm?

Example:
The black cat's fur is almost pitch black on UHD, hard to see the texture of it.
The shadows seem to have much more discernible detail in previous SDR releases - it is easier to see that the fur is a bit shiny since the cat is in a hallway and its fur appears brighter than the shadows (the cat on UHD seems to be graded almost at the same level and the shadows in the corners, it seems).

There are many other dark scenes which appear darker in UHD than before (take the rooftop chase at the beginning, for instance).

[Telemachus]

Whenever I've seen a 35mm print the blacks look milky, they are kind of **** tbh

[RockySpectrum]

Are you talking about The Matrix 35mm print, or just 35mm prints in general?
Because yeah, I get that a projected image is a far cry from the contrast of a proper HDR display, and the higher black level doesn't allow for 'inky blacks' of HDR.

But still, I've seen a showing or two where 35mm looked darker sometimes than a DVD/BD. I thought this might be the case with The Matrix too - and they tried to recreate it in the UHD. But I have never seem the 35mm, hence my question...

[sojrner]

Originally Posted by RockySpectrum

Hello!
I am about to see the UHD, and while setting it up and checking, I have noticed the HDR version (both HDR10 and DV) to be MUCH darker than previous releases. The shadows seem almost pitch black often.
Is it the case with 35mm?

Example:
The black cat's fur is almost pitch black on UHD, hard to see the texture of it.
The shadows seem to have much more discernible detail in previous SDR releases - it is easier to see that the fur is a bit shiny since the cat is in a hallway and its fur appears brighter than the shadows (the cat on UHD seems to be graded almost at the same level and the shadows in the corners, it seems).

There are many other dark scenes which appear darker in UHD than before (take the rooftop chase at the beginning, for instance).

While "darker" is a common refrain for those watching UHD presentations for the first time, if the transfer is decent with solid application of HDR (which this is), the variable is your hardware mm, insetup. I.e., a cheap display or incorrect configuration can crush blacks. You didn't say what you have, so that is just an assumption.

[RockySpectrum]

Although it is a bit irrelevant (I was asking for the other user's experience and impressions instead, not my gear), my setup is:

LG OLED C3, didn't calibrate (the TV seems to be pre-calibrated well, which is confirmed by RTings and other sources), RTings recommended settings (I aim for accuracy and creator's intent).

I don't think there is any black crush - the TV is past its break-in period, I believe + I have taken a look at test charts (esp. near black steps) - no black crush visible.
Besides, I must say that, on my setup, modern HDR titles look much better in terms of 'dimness' (Dune: Part One looked gorgeous!).

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by Telemachus

The DVD looks great, the UHD looks like a marriage between the DVD shot and the old BD, I never liked the old BD the green just looked awful everytime I watched it. If the print looked more magenta or blue I could imagine that.

Yep. If people want to decry the UHD as an abomination they're welcome to, but that previous Blu-ray was shit and that's not me being revisionist either, I never liked it.

[Mierzwiak]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

that previous Blu-ray was shit and that's not me being revisionist either, I never liked it.

It might be a matter of simply being used to it, it's the version I watched the most, but I always liked it and it has that THE MATRIX! look to me. The UHD, while mostly fantastic (mostly; it has too many moments with bitrate nose-diving to hell), has some trully bizarre, often inconsistent color choices.

Two days ago I watched a 2K DCP version of it and yup, it looks exactly the same as the remastered BD.

[BrokenGlass41]

Originally Posted by Mierzwiak

It might be a matter of simply being used to it, it's the version I watched the most, but I always liked it and it has that THE MATRIX! look to me. The UHD, while mostly fantastic (mostly; it has too many moments with bitrate nose-diving to hell), has some trully bizarre, often inconsistent color choices.

Two days ago I watched a 2K DCP version of it and yup, it looks exactly the same as the remastered BD.

Where did you see the remaster?

[Mierzwiak]

Originally Posted by BrokenGlass41

Where did you see the remaster?

In Poland. Our "Multikino" chain is showing some catalogue titles this year, including many from Warner Bros, for example in June & July they will be screening all Harry Potter films and The Dark Knight trilogy in September.

https://multikino.pl/wydarzenia/kultowe-kino

[sojrner]

Originally Posted by RockySpectrum

Although it is a bit irrelevant (I was asking for the other user's experience and impressions instead, not my gear), my setup is:

LG OLED C3, didn't calibrate (the TV seems to be pre-calibrated well, which is confirmed by RTings and other sources), RTings recommended settings (I aim for accuracy and creator's intent).

I don't think there is any black crush - the TV is past its break-in period, I believe + I have taken a look at test charts (esp. near black steps) - no black crush visible.
Besides, I must say that, on my setup, modern HDR titles look much better in terms of 'dimness' (Dune: Part One looked gorgeous!).

Not irrelevant at all. You said it was dark, gave examples of what you couldn't see, and basically asked if that was normal. Any experience of a movie is dependent on how you watch it and how it's presented just as much as how it was created. I wasn't giving any disrespect, just that all those things are factors in how a person perceives a movie, regardless if the version being watched is perfect or not.

Example: If you have your display in a brightly lit room with window reflections, this movie may appear very dark with impenetrable shadows, and that's before a player's processing, the display's aggressive ABL, or the transfer itself is even discussed. Yet in a light-controlled room that's fully dark, without a reflection at all, suddenly it's totally different and the details you miss are visible. Theaters are dark for a reason.

When someone says "it's too dark" or "it looks amazing," without understanding the whole environment it's watched in, it can be tough to qualify.

Carry on.

[RockySpectrum]

I didn't ask 'if it was normal', I asked if the 35mm presentation looks similar to UHD in terms of shadow detail and APL overall.
And I was not comparing my experience to another person's experience - I asked THEM to compare their experiences.

I know the projected image can't give you the 'inky blacks' that an OLED can (and the UHD low-key grading is trying to take advantage of that), but in my case I see the 'inky blacks' smothering the shadow detail a bit that looks incorrect after seeing previous releases (I have a light-controlled room, yes). A cat in a hallway should be more or less well-lit, its fur (including the gloss) easily visible in comparison to the darkest corners in the scene. It is the case with DVD and HD-DVD, but not with UHD.

Perhaps, I'll provide some photos a bit later for better clarity (literally and figuratively).

[Telemachus]

There is no cat

[weberrygt]

Originally Posted by motorheadache95

[Show spoiler]Ok, so I went to go see a vintage 1999 35mm print of the movie and just for fun I'll leave my impressions since the color on this movie has been controversial pretty much since the original DVD release.

So I watched the 4K disc last week, and suddenly the opportunity came up to see this print so I saw both pretty close together, and then when I got home from seeing the print I went back through and spot checked some scenes on the UHD just for fun.

Basically it's what I think many people knew when they looked at the comparisons-- the print looked really close to the UHD for most of the movie (including the greens and yes-- many scenes with cyan lighting). BUT... the shoot-out and rooftop scenes definitely didn't have that cyan cast in the print. There are random shots that have some cyan lighting, mostly cast off of the walls in the building the agents are in holding Morpheus, but it's much fewer than the 4K transfer.

My purely speculative guess? Bill Pope wanted more cyan in those scenes, maybe because they didn't light it quite the way he wanted originally, so he pushed more of it on the new transfer and it's the one real revisionist quality to it. Regardless, IMO it doesn't really bother me and I think it fits in with the overall aesthetic of the movie.

But it was really fun to watch that print with a bunch of fans-- there's a little funny part that I never noticed before-- when Neo is talking to Morpheus on the phone and sees the agents and goes "oh shit!' And then Morpheus says: "yesssss" That got a big laugh.

Very cool. My favorite movie of all time!

I was going to ask how you missed that conversation. I always thought it was clear. However, if you are like me, you may have seen this movie multiple times on less than stellar setups, so it was easy to not hear each and every line. When I saw this in IMAX last year, I noticed sounds that I never noticed before too. So, I'm glad you were able to catch the "YESSSSSS" interaction this time.

[BrokenGlass41]

Originally Posted by RockySpectrum

I didn't ask 'if it was normal', I asked if the 35mm presentation looks similar to UHD in terms of shadow detail and APL overall.
And I was not comparing my experience to another person's experience - I asked THEM to compare their experiences.

I know the projected image can't give you the 'inky blacks' that an OLED can (and the UHD low-key grading is trying to take advantage of that), but in my case I see the 'inky blacks' smothering the shadow detail a bit that looks incorrect after seeing previous releases (I have a light-controlled room, yes). A cat in a hallway should be more or less well-lit, its fur (including the gloss) easily visible in comparison to the darkest corners in the scene. It is the case with DVD and HD-DVD, but not with UHD.

Perhaps, I'll provide some photos a bit later for better clarity (literally and figuratively).

Saw this on what I think was a 35 mm film projection about a year ago and I remember distinctly that the cat was almost pure black and you couldn’t see the fur detail. I can’t really verify how I saw though, so it might’ve been digital, might’ve been film.

I also remember that the rooftop shootout and the helicopter scene were tinted slightly, but I don’t remember the exact color. It was a lot more like the UHD than 35 mm reconstruction that you see in the video.

EDIT: Nevermind. I just checked out the listing. It was a 4K DCP with Atmos, so probably from the 4K master used for the discs. My bad. Always do your research, kiddos.

[Mierzwiak]

I just rewatched Reloaded and it's funny because clips from the first Matrix on TV screens in the Architect scene have an old color grading similar to DVD

[motorheadache95]

Originally Posted by weberrygt

Very cool. My favorite movie of all time!

I was going to ask how you missed that conversation. I always thought it was clear. However, if you are like me, you may have seen this movie multiple times on less than stellar setups, so it was easy to not hear each and every line. When I saw this in IMAX last year, I noticed sounds that I never noticed before too. So, I'm glad you were able to catch the "YESSSSSS" interaction this time.

Well that’s the weird thing— it’s not that I didn’t hear it, I just never noticed it was funny: It’s a weird thing that’s never happened to me before— we all laughed at the part and I was thinking “why did I never notice that was funny before?”

[HeavyHitter]

Originally Posted by Mierzwiak

It might be a matter of simply being used to it, it's the version I watched the most, but I always liked it and it has that THE MATRIX! look to me. The UHD, while mostly fantastic (mostly; it has too many moments with bitrate nose-diving to hell), has some trully bizarre, often inconsistent color choices.

Two days ago I watched a 2K DCP version of it and yup, it looks exactly the same as the remastered BD.

The remastered BD has some major clipping to where it looks completely blown out in some scenes; this was also on the 2K DCP?

[Mierzwiak]

Originally Posted by HeavyHitter

The remastered BD has some major clipping to where it looks completely blown out in some scenes; this was also on the 2K DCP?

Yes, it looked identical as the remastered BD.

[BrokenGlass41]

Originally Posted by Mierzwiak

Yes, it looked identical as the remastered BD.

So is this remastered Blu-ray the one that comes with the 4K release? Sorry about the angry face at the top, that was an accident.

[DR Herbert West]

Originally Posted by BrokenGlass41

So is this remastered Blu-ray the one that comes with the 4K release? Sorry about the angry face at the top, that was an accident.

Yes.