Halloween 4K UHD (1978)

[flash.over]

Originally Posted by KubrickKurasawa

Well if you purchase these will they get the Mono on the first 3 to your liking? Will they get the Ultra Stereo of 4 and 5 to your liking? I prefer the Mono from the 2007 Blu-Ray release and I watched 5 in the Theater with Ultra Stereo. Then they all have NEW Atmos tracks. Who are these for? Rhetorical. Screwball Youtubers I presume.

My 22 YO daughter loves NoES and Halloween but I won't even mention this SET (She just told me she worked 79 hours this last week) and is getting released soon, because how can you have faith and let them spend 300.00 on a set like this and then she doesn't even have an Atmos setup just a soundbar. I notice the extra commentary deleted Debrah Hills audio track ok nice (sarcastic she basically came up with the entire Plot...at least half or more imho Carpenter had final cut and used a lot of Hitchcock influence here) the 2007 has Debrah Hill, Mono in 192Kbps and 1080p picture that rivals the 2018 4K picture imho and isn't as dark so I see more on my Sony.

This SHOUT company could make a lot more profits (I could get her to buy it LMAO she worked 79 hours just this week she can buy it in a snap LOL) but you can't recommend these releases to friends/family because it's all a gamble as to what is truly going to be on there. Oh a 18x24 poster lmao with a slipcase. Passing... and if anything might test the waters with the first 1 on a BF sale and see how good or bad it is.

If everything is right this set should be definitive but when are they ever LOL it might could be!! Sigh... Charlie Brown....I doubt they will sell out of the 300.00 set but I question it's quality on disc. 5 pins...oh jesus really? HAHA whatever.

[RustinCohle]

Originally Posted by KubrickKurasawa

Well if you purchase these will they get the Mono on the first 3 to your liking? Will they get the Ultra Stereo of 4 and 5 to your liking? I prefer the Mono from the 2007 Blu-Ray release and I watched 5 in the Theater with Ultra Stereo. Then they all have NEW Atmos tracks. Who are these for? Rhetorical. Screwball Youtubers I presume.

My 22 YO daughter loves NoES and Halloween but I won't even mention this SET (She just told me she worked 79 hours this last week) and is getting released soon, because how can you have faith and let them spend 300.00 on a set like this and then she doesn't even have an Atmos setup just a soundbar. I notice the extra commentary deleted Debrah Hills audio track ok nice (sarcastic she basically came up with the entire Plot...at least half or more imho Carpenter had final cut and used a lot of Hitchcock influence here) the 2007 has Debrah Hill, Mono in 192Kbps and 1080p picture that rivals the 2018 4K picture imho and isn't as dark so I see more on my Sony.

This SHOUT company could make a lot more profits (I could get her to buy it LMAO she worked 79 hours just this week she can buy it in a snap LOL) but you can't recommend these releases to friends/family because it's all a gamble as to what is truly going to be on there. Oh a 18x24 poster lmao with a slipcase. Passing... and if anything might test the waters with the first 1 on a BF sale and see how good or bad it is.

If everything is right this set should be definitive but when are they ever LOL it might could be!! Sigh... Charlie Brown....I doubt they will sell out of the 300.00 set but I question it's quality on disc. 5 pins...oh jesus really? HAHA whatever.

You know it's KurOsawa, right?

[JCRW82]

Originally Posted by doctorwily

I don't understand any of this. If Scream got DVD audio for Halloween 4, then why can't they get the laserdisc audio for Halloween? Rip it, put it on the disc and call it a day. Is there something I am missing here?

Even though the Criterion Laserdisc Mono Mix is the best sounding release in home video format, it is still not the best possible audio source that a company like Shout Factory can get. The right way to go about this is to go back to the master tape (Original 35mm Magnetic Master Mono Soundtrack) just like they did for the video (OCN over an Interpositive like seen in the Lionsgate Halloween 4K release).

Little would have to be done: get the mag master tapes from Trancas and send them over to a sound production company of choice to perform a raw, lossless, uncompressed A/D transfer and send over the digital files to whomever is responsible for compiling the audio & video and pressing it onto the physical medium. This is what they would have done with Halloween 5 after SF confirmed they found the Mag Master Tapes.

If the Mag Master Tapes are lost/destroyed, then SF could use the Criterion Laserdisc mono mix (exactly as they did for Halloween 4). If there are licensing/legal issues preventing this from happening then of course they have to go to the next best available source which would most likely be the 2014 filtered mono mix we already have.

A simple reply from someone at SF just to confirm why they used the 2014 filtered mono mix would suffice. "Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, the Mag mono tape is lost for H1 and we could not get permission to use the Criterion Laserdisc audio." If this were done I would completely understand and would actually purchase the 4K release.

[steel_breeze]

Originally Posted by JCRW82

A simple reply from someone at SF just to confirm why they used the 2014 filtered mono mix would suffice. "Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, the Mag mono tape is lost for H1 and we could not get permission to use the Criterion Laserdisc audio." If this were done I would completely understand and would actually purchase the 4K release.

Maybe I'm going crazy (well, that's a certainty), but I could swear Cliff already responded that they're using the same "original mono" track -- not the fold-down -- as the previous BD releases from 2007 and the 2014 box because they never knew there were any issues with that track. As I understand it, it's that simple: they ported it over because it's the correct "original" and there were no indications that they needed to look for a better track.

[BobSimms]

Originally Posted by steel_breeze

because they never knew there were any issues with that track. As I understand it, it's that simple: they ported it over because it's the correct "original" and there were no indications that they needed to look for a better track.

You would think they’d be aware or be made aware at some point in the process though, right? In between the 2007 and 2014 releases and today? “Wait, this is a major movie and we’re trying to do a definitive presentation… is this the best that the original soundtrack could be?” Maybe that’s asking too much.

[JCRW82]

Originally Posted by steel_breeze

Maybe I'm going crazy (well, that's a certainty), but I could swear Cliff already responded that they're using the same "original mono" track -- not the fold-down -- as the previous BD releases from 2007 and the 2014 box because they never knew there were any issues with that track. As I understand it, it's that simple: they ported it over because it's the correct "original" and there were no indications that they needed to look for a better track.

I searched the Halloween 4K thread and found no confirmation from Cliff on the original mono track for Halloween (1978). He confirmed the sources used for H4 & H5, and provided an explanation for why they were unable to pull the commentary track used in the Halloween Criterion Laserdisc release. The only confirmation on the mono mix source is from Shout Factory Customer Service who also confirmed they are using the best possible audio resources available to them.

There were certainly a few here that posted about the audio issues with the 2014 mono mix included in the SF Boxset and some mentioned that they would be willing to provide the Criterion Laserdisc audio source if they absolutely needed it. That was around the same time folks questioned why the stereo mixes were not listed in the audio specs for H4 & H5. We got the explanation and the updates for those two films and silence for H1.

[Kyle15]

Originally Posted by steel_breeze

Maybe I'm going crazy (well, that's a certainty), but I could swear Cliff already responded that they're using the same "original mono" track -- not the fold-down -- as the previous BD releases from 2007 and the 2014 box because they never knew there were any issues with that track. As I understand it, it's that simple: they ported it over because it's the correct "original" and there were no indications that they needed to look for a better track.

I feel like this is the most likely scenario. Everyone should keep in mind filtered audio tracks are atypical to the point of being standard. If it fits the bill as the original mono, it's already been "restored" and is thusly available as-is. If there's a point in the project that's already done it's already done.

[BluProofie]

Originally Posted by Kyle15

I feel like this is the most likely scenario. Everyone should keep in mind filtered audio tracks are atypical to the point of being standard. If it fits the bill as the original mono, it's already been "restored" and is thusly available as-is. If there's a point in the project that's already done it's already done.

Assuming the original audio for H1 still exists and was available, they were probably more focused on H4 and H5 because they wanted to make sure each film had its original audio track in some form. There was a lot of chatter about those two when these were first announced because the 5.1 tracks for those are atrocious.

As long as these transfers look amazing, I’m ok with that. I never noticed anything wrong with the “filtered” track and wouldn’t have if people hadn’t pointed it out. I did, however, notice how awful the H4 and H5 tracks were and am happy that those are finally getting great home video releases.

[JCRW82]

Originally Posted by Kyle15

I feel like this is the most likely scenario. Everyone should keep in mind filtered audio tracks are atypical to the point of being standard. If it fits the bill as the original mono, it's already been "restored" and is thusly available as-is. If there's a point in the project that's already done it's already done.

I do get this perspective but now that the issue has been raised with the 2007/2014 Mono Mix, it can certainly be "remastered". That is a practice done commonly in the music industry and even in films, although the latter would be more focused on picture quality (Patton: Remastered, The Terminator: Remastered, etc). All they need to do is go back to the Original Master Tapes, flat transfer them to digital and perform minimal to zero processing of the files.

Of course it is too late now to address this in the new release, we will now have to wait until the 45th or 50th Anniversary edition(s) to see if they follow through. But that may not happen either, especially if the mono master tape is lost. If it still exists, then certainly Shout Factory are not using "the best possible audio resources available to them" and I cannot support this 4K release. I think right now, all we are waiting for is a quick confirmation on whether the Mag tape is available or lost/destroyed. A quick and simple reply similar to the one covering the sources used for H4 & H5 will suffice.

[BluProofie]

Originally Posted by JCRW82

I do get this perspective but now that the issue has been raised with the 2007/2014 Mono Mix, it can certainly be "remastered". That is a practice done commonly in the music industry and even in films, although the latter would be more focused on picture quality (Patton: Remastered, The Terminator: Remastered, etc). All they need to do is go back to the Original Master Tapes, flat transfer them to digital and perform minimal to zero processing of the files.

Of course it is too late now to address this in the new release, we will now have to wait until the 45th or 50th Anniversary edition(s) to see if they follow through. But that may not happen either, especially if the mono master tape is lost. If it still exists, then certainly Shout Factory are not using "the best possible audio resources available to them" and I cannot support this 4K release. I think right now, all we are waiting for is a quick confirmation on whether the Mag tape is available or lost/destroyed. A quick and simple reply similar to the one covering the sources used for H4 & H5 will suffice.

Hard to say if physical media will still exist then, and if so, I’d expect a UHD re-release to just be the same disc. And if it was a case of laziness, I doubt they would’ve gone through the trouble of getting the OG tracks for H4 and 5. They could’ve simply said that the material was lost, end of story.

You’re right that this is all just speculation until we receive confirmation, though.

[BobSimms]

I really don’t see how the original mono could be missing. It was on the 35mm, which was used to create the vinyl master for the 2018 Death Waltz issue of the original mono soundtrack. And that vinyl doesn’t sound like the crushed-to-death ‘07/‘14 original mono options on BD. You can find a video of a vinyl rip of that release online and hear it yourself. If Death Waltz could access that, so could Scream Factory or (fingers crossed) another home video label.

[BluProofie]

Originally Posted by BobSimms

I really don’t see how the original mono could be missing. It was on the 35mm, which was used to create the vinyl master for the 2018 Death Waltz issue of the original mono soundtrack. And that vinyl doesn’t sound like the crushed-to-death ‘07/‘14 original mono options on BD. You can find a video of a vinyl rip of that release online and hear it yourself. If Death Waltz could access that, so could Scream Factory or (fingers crossed) another home video label.

Anchor Bay had the home video rights for like 20 years.

[jayman3]

Originally Posted by BluProofie

Are you ok

Originally Posted by JPLeon

Huh, WHAT?!...oh *laughs*... ok

Originally Posted by flash.over

Originally Posted by RustinCohle

You know it's KurOsawa, right?

Guys. His daughter worked 79 hours this week. She can totally afford the set.

[Jay Mammoth]

Originally Posted by BluProofie

Anchor Bay had the home video rights for like 20 years.

This, glad Scream Factory has the rights now.

[JCRW82]

Originally Posted by BobSimms

I really don’t see how the original mono could be missing. It was on the 35mm, which was used to create the vinyl master for the 2018 Death Waltz issue of the original mono soundtrack. And that vinyl doesn’t sound like the crushed-to-death ‘07/‘14 original mono options on BD. You can find a video of a vinyl rip of that release online and hear it yourself. If Death Waltz could access that, so could Scream Factory or (fingers crossed) another home video label.

Death Waltz would have used the Original 35mm Magnetic Mono Music and Effects Track rather than the Original 35mm Magnetic Master Mono Soundtrack. Both are original master tapes but the Music and Effects tape is just that: the music and effects without the dialogue. As that tape was used in 2018 for the vinyl reissue it is safe to confirm that the tape still exists and is in good shape.

The Original 35mm Magnetic Master Mono Soundtrack on the other hand (the mix that includes the dialogue) we have no idea whether the tape still exists or not. It would have last been handled by Anchor Bay & Crest for the 2007 Blu Ray Release. And it's quite possible that it may even go back earlier than that to the original 1999 DVD release from Anchor Bay/Chace Productions where they created the 5.1 surround mix straight from both the 16 track music studio master and the original 35mm Magnetic Dialogue and Effects Tracks.

[bobbyh64]

Originally Posted by HW666

Laurie stabbing The Shape whilst crouched in front of the sofa was also an alternate take.

I forgot to check this scene out when you posted this and just remembered. Yep, different takes! So, it seems there are three alternate takes used in the TV cut.

[BobSimms]

Originally Posted by JCRW82

[Show spoiler]Death Waltz would have used the Original 35mm Magnetic Mono Music and Effects Track rather than the Original 35mm Magnetic Master Mono Soundtrack. Both are original master tapes but the Music and Effects tape is just that: the music and effects without the dialogue. As that tape was used in 2018 for the vinyl reissue it is safe to confirm that the tape still exists and is in good shape.

The Original 35mm Magnetic Master Mono Soundtrack on the other hand (the mix that includes the dialogue) we have no idea whether the tape still exists or not. It would have last been handled by Anchor Bay & Crest for the 2007 Blu Ray Release. And it's quite possible that it may even go back earlier than that to the original 1999 DVD release from Anchor Bay/Chace Productions where they created the 5.1 surround mix straight from both the 16 track music studio master and the original 35mm Magnetic Dialogue and Effects Tracks.

You’re mistaken about a few things here. Death Waltz, namely Alan Howarth—the same dude who remixed the soundtrack in stereo for its very first vinyl release several decades ago—did not access any original tape recordings for the 2018 mono vinyl. He used the optical track from the 35mm negative, the space on the film reserved for the entirety of the soundtrack, including dialogue, effects, and music. We know this several ways: 1) Death Waltz specified it in their copy about the release; 2) there is obvious bleed-through heard at various points in the release, where dialogue is heard faintly—typical of the 3-track stems on a 35mm reel’s optical soundtrack; and 3) the music fades down at various points to accommodate the dialogue, just as we hear it do when watching the film.

There is no need to go back to any kind of tape to restore or transfer the soundtrack anew. We’re not talking about remixing it in stereo or surround (although they certainly did that to create the Atmos track, somehow!) where it would be a tremendous advantage (and necessary, I would think?) to at least be able to access Carpenter’s studio multitracks of his music and remix it with the dialogue from the negative. We’re just talking about creating a better mono audio track using the 3-track stems that are most certainly already on the final negative, which was accessed by Death Waltz/Alan Howarth in 2018. It’s all there on the 35mm negative’s optical soundtrack.

[Onlysleeping23]

Originally Posted by BobSimms

You’re mistaken about a few things here. Death Waltz, namely Alan Howarth—the same dude who remixed the soundtrack in stereo for its very first vinyl release several decades ago—did not access any original tape recordings for the 2018 mono vinyl. He used the optical track from the 35mm negative, the space on the film reserved for the entirety of the soundtrack, including dialogue, effects, and music. We know this several ways: 1) Death Waltz specified it in their copy about the release; 2) there is obvious bleed-through heard at various points in the release, where dialogue is heard faintly—typical of the 3-track stems on a 35mm reel’s optical soundtrack; and 3) the music fades down at various points to accommodate the dialogue, just as we hear it do when watching the film.

There is no need to go back to any kind of tape to restore or transfer the soundtrack anew. We’re not talking about remixing it in stereo or surround (although they certainly did that to create the Atmos track, somehow!) where it would be a tremendous advantage (and necessary, I would think?) to at least be able to access Carpenter’s studio multitracks of his music and remix it with the dialogue from the negative. We’re just talking about creating a better mono audio track using the 3-track stems that are most certainly already on the final negative, which was accessed by Death Waltz/Alan Howarth in 2018. It’s all there on the 35mm negative’s optical soundtrack.

The audio is not stored in an optical format, it’s magnetic tape coated on 35mm film. It looks like this:



The optical track would be a mixed version of the audio for playback during projection.

Here’s the Death Waltz copy:

“ The audio is taken from the “music stem” derived from the 35mm mono tracks that comprised the dialogue, sound effects and music of the original film which when combined, comprise the complete soundtrack of the classic film.”

All of this is kind of a moot point anyway. We know this material still exists, they’ve been able to access it for countless remixes over the years, and the DW soundtrack. The only way this would help, and what I think you’re suggesting is if they carefully combined them to create a NEW mono mix, approximating the old one.

We don’t know what deliverables re: the original mono MIX (with all music, effects, and dialog combined) SF has access to, other than the filtered track they’ve already used on the box set. I think that’s the debate here.

[BobSimms]

Originally Posted by Onlysleeping23

The audio is not stored in an optical format, it’s magnetic tape coated on 35mm film. The optical track would be a mixed version of the audio for playback during projection.

I’m assuming you’re making a distinction between mag reels and the finished optical track? I’m not talking about going back to the original mag reels (what I believe JCR82 was calling “tapes”) that they initially used to merge the audio with video in the editing room. Why wouldn’t the first (or other early) generation optical track be accessible? Isn’t that what every restoration house & home video label accesses when rescanning/restoring a 35mm film in HD/2K/4K? Where do the original soundtracks come from whenever, say, Vinegar Syndrome performs a brand new scan?

I don’t understand why this particular element of a new Halloween resto is being made out to be a bridge too far. As you said, we know the sound exists; if SF could construct a new Atmos track (again—using which elements, exactly?) why couldn’t they extract the original mono from somewhere and treat it better than it was treated 20+ years ago? Clearly I’m missing something, I just don’t know what.

Edited to add: I was confusing the optical track, which contains the final mix of the soundtrack with its various elements inextricably linked, and the mag reels. Evidently the mag reels are what Howarth accessed for the 2018 mono vinyl soundtrack. My question, ‘Why isn’t the original optical track accessible?’ still stands.

[JCRW82]

Originally Posted by BobSimms

I’m assuming you’re making a distinction between mag reels and the finished optical track? I’m not talking about going back to the original mag reels (what I believe JCR82 was calling “tapes”) that they initially used to merge the audio with video in the editing room. Why wouldn’t the first (or other early) generation optical track be accessible? Isn’t that what every restoration house & home video label accesses when rescanning/restoring a 35mm film in HD/2K/4K? Where do the original soundtracks come from whenever, say, Vinegar Syndrome performs a brand new scan?

I don’t understand why this particular element of a new Halloween resto is being made out to be a bridge too far. As you said, we know the sound exists; if SF could construct a new Atmos track (again—using which elements, exactly?) why couldn’t they extract the original mono from somewhere and treat it better than it was treated 20+ years ago? Clearly I’m missing something, I just don’t know what.

Edited to add: I was confusing the optical track, which contains the final mix of the soundtrack with its various elements inextricably linked, and the mag reels. Evidently the mag reels are what Howarth accessed for the 2018 mono vinyl soundtrack. My question, ‘Why isn’t the original optical track accessible?’ still stands.

Cool, if Howarth used the mag reels that also included a dialogue track for the vinyl release then that would more or less confirm that the Master Mono Mix still exists. SF should easily have been able to obtain this source for the release and minimal work would have been needed to be done with it.