Justice League 4K UHD (2017)

[RockyIII]

Man of Steel is a movie devoid of all hope? What???

[meatball_84]

Originally Posted by pottyaboutpotter1

That's not what happened. Fanboys have negligible effect on the box office for movies like this. This is why movies like Justice League, Warcraft and Power Rangers can be box office disappointments despite having strong fanbases.

What did happen? Man of Steel and Batman v Superman massively disappointed general audiences and turned them off seeing any more movies in the DCEU that were directed by Zack Snyder or looked to be in the same mould as those two movies, which may likely extend to movies starring Henry Cavill's Superman and Ben Affleck's Batman (we'll have to see what happens there if more movies starring those two as the characters get made).

Snyder's take on Batman and Superman drove away general audiences. MOS and BVS were not widely considered good films. Audiences then voted with their wallets and chose not to see Justice League, going to see Thor: Ragnarok, Coco and Wonder instead. Many people also chose to wait for reviews and WOM for Justice League and when it got out that the film was not great this led to more people choosing not to see it.

A sub-$100 million OW for WB's biggest release of the year doesn't happen because of childish fanboys. It happens when the general audience has had enough. This is supported by Justice League becoming the lowest grossing DCEU movie worldwide, making LESS than Man of Steel. To put that in perspective, this is the equivalent of Infinity War making less than Ant-Man (the current lowest grossing MCU movie). It's a disappointment, a massive embarrassment for all involved, shows audiences have lost all faith in the DCEU franchise and ensures Justice League (with it's estimated $450 million total costs including marketing) will remain unprofitable for quite some time until later in it's DVD/Blu-Ray release. And that's not good whichever way you slice it, because they're not in this business to make a profit many months down the line.

Just like what happened with Transformers last year, audiences have had enough. Zack Snyder directing a DCEU project is box office poison at this point in time (which ensures the "Snyder Cut" will likely never see a release and that Snyder will probably never handle a film featuring someone else's IP ever again).

Through not seeing Justice League, general audiences vehemently rejected the DCEU in its current form. This was not the work of childish fanboys.

This is not entirely accurate. It is a mix of reasons why JL failed. $880 million theatrically for BvS showed that there was a fanbase for the movie. But not hitting $1billion, and poor critic response launched WB into freak out mode and they sabotaged Suicide Squad trying to alter course. They tried to mess with Wonder Woman too, but Jenkins won out and the movie was a massive hit for them.

WB's issue is that they failed to recognize that there was a pretty large fanbase for what Snyder had delivered previously, and still more people curious if they could continue the momentum from WW. The curious crowd were the ones that were going to wait on reviews. However, the behind the scenes on JL were incredibly messy. WB was so focused on the fans that they didnt have, that they completely abandoned the ones that they did have. Replacing Snyder so far into production was concerning, but the way they described the change was that HIS movie was going to be finished, with very slight alterations approved by him. Then they fired JunkieXL, then Mustachegate, then 2hr mandate. Even then, the trailers looked great. All the way up to October when the final trailer came out, it continued to look like a great movie. Obviously it became apparent that the movie being advertised was not what we got. Then the final nail in the coffin came when they held back reviews until the last possible second, which is never a good sign. The word of mouth was bad, and that kept away not only the people on the fence, but also many of the loyal fans that were tired of WBs circus act with this franchise.

In my opinion, the movie would have made more if they released the original version that they set out to make. That would have brought in the established fans for multiple viewings, likely would have had better reviews at least for being one cohesive movie, and would not have had 6 months of bad behind the scenes news. At the same time, they would not have spent another $100 million to drastically change the movie. Even if the Snyder cut had made the same amount as the one we got, the overall budget would have been 20-30% lower. Then they could have just moved on from Snyder after JL came out. Now they are in an even tougher spot trying to figure out how to proceed, how to get new fans, but more importantly(IMO) get back the fans that enjoyed the DCEU before Justice League.

Even as a big Snyder fan I will also admit that in retrospect if they did not want to continue the Snyder vision from MoS and BvS, then they should have stopped before production started and replaced him then. At least they could have found an organic way of transitioning to the new direction instead of this mess. I would have been disappointed, but that is life. The shit storm that came from doing over a years worth of production then drastically altering course was way worse than just pushing back the release and production by 6 months.

Justice League's failure is 100% WBs baby. Snyder makes the movies, and whether or not we like them is subjective. You cannot blame him for moving forward with his vision when his bosses approve the script, the casting, the budget, the sets, the music, the release date and so much more. And you really cannot blame him with they chop out 30 minutes(BvS) at the last second and wonder why critics say the story doesnt flow or make sense. You cannot blame him when he is almost finished with JL and they hijack the movie and change 50% of it and then leave his name as the sole director to take the blame. It is truly a testament to his character that he has not said one negative word about WB after everything that has happened. And it is testament to WB's character when they used his daughters suicide to cover up his firing, and continually lied to the fans about the movie we would receive.

I do think we will get the Snyder cut. If WB can make a profit from it, we will get it.

[morphinapg]

I love Man of Steel, I think Batman v Superman is near perfect (the Ultimate Edition anyway), and I enjoy Justice League but for me Justice League doesn't quite live up to what those movies were building up to. I think the core ideas are there, of Superman having an influence on Bruce to become a better hero, for Superman to be reborn himself into something more like what we expect, but I didn't think the villain was good enough to warrant this team up. I do think he was technically a big threat, but I would have liked more. Steppenwolf always felt more like a sidekick to someone bigger, so the movie always felt like it was lacking the punch it needed to really be an epic movie. The comedy I felt was mostly a nice addition, and was definitely what Snyder had in mind if you look at the original comic con footage, and I do think Whedon did likely help with the team rapport compared to Snyder, but I do think there were a few beats Whedon added that didn't quite work. I feel like perhaps if we had seen the longer cut Whedon did before the studio cut it down further, perhaps that might have solved some of the issues with the movie. For the most part I think Whedon enhanced the movie. I think the biggest changes made to Snyder's story were likely more studio interference than Whedon's ideas. I don't think a Snyder cut is possible without another dozens of millions of dollars, which WB is never going to allow, but I would at least like to have seen the longer Whedon cut, which would have included more Snyder content for sure.

Sent from my OnePlus One using Tapatalk

[AdubW1982]

Originally Posted by meatball_84

This is not entirely accurate. It is a mix of reasons why JL failed. $880 million theatrically for BvS showed that there was a fanbase for the movie. But not hitting $1billion, and poor critic response launched WB into freak out mode and they sabotaged Suicide Squad trying to alter course. They tried to mess with Wonder Woman too, but Jenkins won out and the movie was a massive hit for them.

WB's issue is that they failed to recognize that there was a pretty large fanbase for what Snyder had delivered previously, and still more people curious if they could continue the momentum from WW. The curious crowd were the ones that were going to wait on reviews. However, the behind the scenes on JL were incredibly messy. WB was so focused on the fans that they didnt have, that they completely abandoned the ones that they did have. Replacing Snyder so far into production was concerning, but the way they described the change was that HIS movie was going to be finished, with very slight alterations approved by him. Then they fired JunkieXL, then Mustachegate, then 2hr mandate. Even then, the trailers looked great. All the way up to October when the final trailer came out, it continued to look like a great movie. Obviously it became apparent that the movie being advertised was not what we got. Then the final nail in the coffin came when they held back reviews until the last possible second, which is never a good sign. The word of mouth was bad, and that kept away not only the people on the fence, but also many of the loyal fans that were tired of WBs circus act with this franchise.

In my opinion, the movie would have made more if they released the original version that they set out to make. That would have brought in the established fans for multiple viewings, likely would have had better reviews at least for being one cohesive movie, and would not have had 6 months of bad behind the scenes news. At the same time, they would not have spent another $100 million to drastically change the movie. Even if the Snyder cut had made the same amount as the one we got, the overall budget would have been 20-30% lower. Then they could have just moved on from Snyder after JL came out. Now they are in an even tougher spot trying to figure out how to proceed, how to get new fans, but more importantly(IMO) get back the fans that enjoyed the DCEU before Justice League.

Even as a big Snyder fan I will also admit that in retrospect if they did not want to continue the Snyder vision from MoS and BvS, then they should have stopped before production started and replaced him then. At least they could have found an organic way of transitioning to the new direction instead of this mess. I would have been disappointed, but that is life. The shit storm that came from doing over a years worth of production then drastically altering course was way worse than just pushing back the release and production by 6 months.

Justice League's failure is 100% WBs baby. Snyder makes the movies, and whether or not we like them is subjective. You cannot blame him for moving forward with his vision when his bosses approve the script, the casting, the budget, the sets, the music, the release date and so much more. And you really cannot blame him with they chop out 30 minutes(BvS) at the last second and wonder why critics say the story doesnt flow or make sense. You cannot blame him when he is almost finished with JL and they hijack the movie and change 50% of it and then leave his name as the sole director to take the blame. It is truly a testament to his character that he has not said one negative word about WB after everything that has happened. And it is testament to WB's character when they used his daughters suicide to cover up his firing, and continually lied to the fans about the movie we would receive.

I do think we will get the Snyder cut. If WB can make a profit from it, we will get it.

Well said man, well said!

[A1i7]

is there any 1.85:1 aspect ratio available on 4k?

[car2nst]

Originally Posted by pottyaboutpotter1

I'm not bashing Man of Steel, as I said I actually really like it, but my point is that the characterisation of Superman left something to be desired for many moviegoers. Audiences obviously didn't find Cavill's Superman heroic or inspiring enough. And I don't think it had anything to do with them expecting a more experienced Superman. Spider-Man: Homecoming featured Spider-Man as a complete rookie but that was still a huge hit. The complaints the average movie goer had with Man of Steel are completely valid. They are even problems that critics picked up on. The film, like all the Snyder DCEU films, didn't click with audiences the way WB wanted it to. I don't think it's because audiences want more comedic superhero movies, but likewise you can't be completely joyless and have an almost oppressively dour tone and still expect the movie to play well with kids and families. To put it simply, the main hero wears a symbol of hope on his chest but yet never actually inspires hope in the audience. Man of Steel is a very hopeless film and that is one of its major failings and possibly why it didn't click with audiences. Personally, you can write as much as you can saying "But he did save people! But he did smile!" and it won't change that Man of Steel was a very hopeless film despite it pushing hope as its main theme. I like the film, but it has a lot of problems and I honestly can't blame audiences for not connecting with it. The same applies for Batman v Superman.

Man of Steel was expected to be a massive hit. It fell way below WB's expectations which is why we got Batman v Superman instead of Man of Steel 2; WB thought throwing Batman into the mix and rushing a shared universe would lead to a bigger box office and better profits. While no one lost money on Man of Steel, they didn't make as much as they wanted. And the same goes on Batman v Superman. And then they lost money on Justice League. Two films in a row with very dour tones that don't give audiences anything to aspire to, don't inspire any hope and make the two lead heroes pretty unlikeable. Is it any question why Justice League bombed? This is why Wonder Woman did well, because tonally it was right. Wonder Woman was a likeable character who inspired hope in the audience and left people with a smile on their face. Not leaving them conflicted and unsure if they should even be rooting for the hero.

I hate to be blunt, but the general audience had very valid complaints with Man of Steel and BVS. You can write as many long posts as you want defending the creative decisions in these films, but at the end of the day the films did not click with audiences and it's not hard to see why. A Superman film devoid of hope is a very tough sell and it's something I still don't think audiences are quite ready for and if they are, it's not something they want. Is it any surprise the Man of Steel trailers tried their damnedest to make the film look more uplifting and hopeful than it actually was?

Where are you getting your information from? MOS WAS fairly well received & was a decent hit & the general audience thought it was ok (& not even near the divineness as JL or The Last Jedi was). I am a huge Superman fan, but I don't recall ANYONE saying it would be a MASSIVE hit before it came out. You are making it sound like it should have made 1.5 billion at the box office...which is just unrealistic not to mention you said JL lost money (which it did not...it was already established it passed its profit margin & made a little profit...which some is still better than none)

There ARE flaws in the movie to be sure. Show me a movie that does not have flaws, but when you say the general audience did not like it...that is just wrong. I don't go by what RT or Metacritic goes by, but if you do than you should take an avg of ALL them plus retail sites like Amazon, Target, etc (since MOS did break record dvd sales when it was released...so I would say your "general audience" must have liked it enough to buy the movie.)

And yes my very long post made more of valid points than your inaccurate assessments & points without merit..As well as shown through the youtube video that more people agree with that than not. as you will find out the majority of people liked the movie from "just ok" to "great" rather than than just "crap" or "really didn't like it".

Zack Snyder did fine..he is a decent director...he has his flaws & has his weaknesses but I distinctly remember after Superman Returns came out & it ill-performed much more so than MOS, that people all over the internet said he was too creepy, & it was too similar to Richard Donner's & Superman didn't even fight...NOW we got a Superman who DID smile more than once (instead of stalking his ex) in the movie & DID fight ...and is the BEST Raw power Superhero Fight we have seen in a Comic Book movie to date.

And lastly judging by the likes & views of this particular forum...I believe your incorrect assessment is in the minority.

[car2nst]

Originally Posted by AdubW1982

Well said man, well said!

No..it really wasn't considering half of his statements were either inaccurate conjectures or just assumptions based on a few hundred critics' opinions vs 10s of thousands of movie viewers...lol

[meatball_84]

Originally Posted by pottyaboutpotter1

I'm not bashing Man of Steel, as I said I actually really like it, but my point is that the characterisation of Superman left something to be desired for many moviegoers. Audiences obviously didn't find Cavill's Superman heroic or inspiring enough. And I don't think it had anything to do with them expecting a more experienced Superman. Spider-Man: Homecoming featured Spider-Man as a complete rookie but that was still a huge hit. The complaints the average movie goer had with Man of Steel are completely valid. They are even problems that critics picked up on. The film, like all the Snyder DCEU films, didn't click with audiences the way WB wanted it to. I don't think it's because audiences want more comedic superhero movies, but likewise you can't be completely joyless and have an almost oppressively dour tone and still expect the movie to play well with kids and families. To put it simply, the main hero wears a symbol of hope on his chest but yet never actually inspires hope in the audience. Man of Steel is a very hopeless film and that is one of its major failings and possibly why it didn't click with audiences. Personally, you can write as much as you can saying "But he did save people! But he did smile!" and it won't change that Man of Steel was a very hopeless film despite it pushing hope as its main theme. I like the film, but it has a lot of problems and I honestly can't blame audiences for not connecting with it. The same applies for Batman v Superman.

Man of Steel was expected to be a massive hit. It fell way below WB's expectations which is why we got Batman v Superman instead of Man of Steel 2; WB thought throwing Batman into the mix and rushing a shared universe would lead to a bigger box office and better profits. While no one lost money on Man of Steel, they didn't make as much as they wanted. And the same goes on Batman v Superman. And then they lost money on Justice League. Two films in a row with very dour tones that don't give audiences anything to aspire to, don't inspire any hope and make the two lead heroes pretty unlikeable. Is it any question why Justice League bombed? This is why Wonder Woman did well, because tonally it was right. Wonder Woman was a likeable character who inspired hope in the audience and left people with a smile on their face. Not leaving them conflicted and unsure if they should even be rooting for the hero.

I hate to be blunt, but the general audience had very valid complaints with Man of Steel and BVS. You can write as many long posts as you want defending the creative decisions in these films, but at the end of the day the films did not click with audiences and it's not hard to see why. A Superman film devoid of hope is a very tough sell and it's something I still don't think audiences are quite ready for and if they are, it's not something they want. Is it any surprise the Man of Steel trailers tried their damnedest to make the film look more uplifting and hopeful than it actually was?

I do agree with some of you points here, especially about Wonder Woman. My take on MoS and BvS not being received as well boils down to one thing. Marvel. Let me explain.

I actually quite like the MCU. What they have done to cinema is historic. But... at the same time, they have trained audiences on what to expect from your comic book movie. Good humor, fun action, interconnected stories, end credits scenes, ect. Snyder, Goyer, and Nolan set out from the start to be different with Man of Steel, and rightfully so. I feel the lack of connection from audiences was because it was so drastically different from what movie fans had become accustomed to with the MCU. To me, MoS felt more real. Like it could have actually happened in our world. Marvel feels like a comic book, and thats awesome. In an alien invasion, people die. When Gods fight in the street, buildings get leveled. But audiences were not happy about the level of destruction, about the loss of life. WB also wanted Marvels success after 1 movie not 5-6 years worth of world building. So they ordered Batman to be added and the DCEU to start being built. Snyder and Terrios adjustment was genius IMO. BvS held Superman responsible for what happend in MoS. Batman was introduced as an old, tired, and pissed off Batman. Again though, and even more so, BvS was MASSIVELY different than any other comic book movie. It showed us an alien struggling with his place in our very real world. It showed the government trying to control him, protesters trying to condemn him, others begging for his help, and those who used to have the most power trying to destroy him. It is not easy for the audience to see their hero become the villain(Batman). It is not easy to see Superman struggle with his place in the world. But audiences have also complained that Superman is too powerful to be relatable. So watching his downfall and acceptance of his humanity made him human.

To me, Snyders DC movies are more adult. And I am not one of those fans that will say that people are too dumb to understand. It feels more that it was just too different to what people liked at the time. But BvS has changed cinema too. I think even marvel is affraid to go that dark, or that serious with their movies. Ragnarok should have been a much darker film than it was. And I actually did not like it. It took a very serious plot line and made it into a comedy. Fans loved it though and it made a ton of money. But has Marvel become too cocky because they think they cannot fail? Maybe. Look at The Last Jedi. It took major risks with the universe. It made money, but there is some massive fan backlash. It should be applauded for trying to subvert expectations. But it is not what fans wanted apparently.

This may sound crazy, but I think fans are a big part of the problem with most of these franchises. The internet has made everyone so loud, and the studios listen to those who have problems with then end product, more than those who actually enjoyed it. And we all hop onto forums like this and fight it out on which universe it better, and it gets pretty ugly. But studios need to stand by their choices and push forward. Marvel has proven that you make a plan and stick to it while making small course corrections when necessary. WB is like Two Face, flipping a coin for every decision that needs to be made, then they end up making up a 3rd choice along the way, and even then they dont adhere to it.

[meatball_84]

Originally Posted by car2nst

Where are you getting your information from? MOS WAS fairly well received & was a decent hit & the general audience thought it was ok (& not even near the divineness as JL or The Last Jedi was). I am a huge Superman fan, but I don't recall ANYONE saying it would be a MASSIVE hit before it came out. You are making it sound like it should have made 1.5 billion at the box office...which is just unrealistic not to mention you said JL lost money (which it did not...it was already established it passed its profit margin & made a little profit...which some is still better than none)

There ARE flaws in the movie to be sure. Show me a movie that does not have flaws, but when you say the general audience did not like it...that is just wrong. I don't go by what RT or Metacritic goes by, but if you do than you should take an avg of ALL them plus retail sites like Amazon, Target, etc (since MOS did break record dvd sales when it was released...so I would say your "general audience" must have liked it enough to buy the movie.)

And yes my very long post made more of valid points than your inaccurate assessments & points without merit..As well as shown through the youtube video that more people agree with that than not. as you will find out the majority of people liked the movie from "just ok" to "great" rather than than just "crap" or "really didn't like it".

Zack Snyder did fine..he is a decent director...he has his flaws & has his weaknesses but I distinctly remember after Superman Returns came out & it ill-performed much more so than MOS, that people all over the internet said he was too creepy, & it was too similar to Richard Donner's & Superman didn't even fight...NOW we got a Superman who DID smile more than once (instead of stalking his ex) in the movie & DID fight ...and is the BEST Raw power Superhero Fight we have seen in a Comic Book movie to date.

And lastly judging by the likes & views of this particular forum...I believe your incorrect assessment is in the minority.

Only WB expected MoS to be a MASSIVE hit. They felt that Marvel was already making billion dollar movies so they should too. So everytime one of there DC movies made less than that magical $1billion, they overreacted.

[meatball_84]

Originally Posted by car2nst

No..it really wasn't considering half of his statements were either inaccurate conjectures or just assumptions based on a few hundred critics' opinions vs 10s of thousands of movie viewers...lol

That is why I put in my opinion on there multiple times. I base alot of what I said around points that haven PROVEN true, but have been reported by reliable sources. There is no way to prove that the Snyder Cut would have made more, but I feel that it would have, and not just as a fan boy. It would have completed an arc that started in MoS and continued in BvS.

But what is obvious is that WB altered the movie to be more Marvel-like and that it did not resonate with the established fans, those on the fence, or those willing to give it a shot.

What is also very likely is that delaying the film from the start and either firing or keeping Snyder and adjusting the story would have probably given us a better product than the frankenstein movie we ended up with.

And I dont hate JL. I do love MoS and BvS. I was more disappointed by what we got than I was angry. JL could have been much worse considering everything that happened. It is still better than Fan4stic or Green Lantern, but IMO is only better than Suicide Squad in the DCEU. And I think we deserved better than what we were given

[car2nst]

Originally Posted by meatball_84

That is why I put in my opinion on there multiple times. I base alot of what I said around points that haven PROVEN true, but have been reported by reliable sources. There is no way to prove that the Snyder Cut would have made more, but I feel that it would have, and not just as a fan boy. It would have completed an arc that started in MoS and continued in BvS.

But what is obvious is that WB altered the movie to be more Marvel-like and that it did not resonate with the established fans, those on the fence, or those willing to give it a shot.

What is also very likely is that delaying the film from the start and either firing or keeping Snyder and adjusting the story would have probably given us a better product than the frankenstein movie we ended up with.

And I dont hate JL. I do love MoS and BvS. I was more disappointed by what we got than I was angry. JL could have been much worse considering everything that happened. It is still better than Fan4stic or Green Lantern, but IMO is only better than Suicide Squad in the DCEU. And I think we deserved better than what we were given

I agree. It's a shame what WB has done BTS to the movies...if they were let alone & DC was given their own Movie Studio like Marvel Studios has, all of these films would be "Marvel" level or better.

WB might have had massive hit expectations but that is far from saying MOS was not well received by the general audience though. Look at the 2013 Tomb Raider reboot video game...The game studio (I want to say Square Enix..but i don't remember) released a statement saying it essentially flopped due to not meeting their expectations in sales...which were unrealistic to the point of absurdity.(like trying to sell twice as much as the current CoD of that time period)..however the game was actually very well received by the gamers & won numerous awards. MOS did win a few awards but was nominated for a bunch of them. (granted not winning them isn't the same but being nominated for as many as it did means the movie must have done something right moreover than not)

I just don't see the amount of data/reviews & news adding up to show that MoS was more ill-received by the complete viewer base.(theatrically & home video wise)

[kurtis21]

Originally Posted by RockyIII

Any of you who may own a 4K upsampling projector has had the chance to play this UHD on 100" screen or larger? How is this when played on a 4K upsampling projector?

I'm confused by "upsampling" projector? Do you mean the E-Shift projectors from JVC? Because you're also saying the UHD...which means you can't be talking about a 1080P projector? Correct?

[meatball_84]

Originally Posted by car2nst

I agree. It's a shame what WB has done BTS to the movies...if they were let alone & DC was given their own Movie Studio like Marvel Studios has, all of these films would be "Marvel" level or better.

WB might have had massive hit expectations but that is far from saying MOS was not well received by the general audience though. Look at the 2013 Tomb Raider reboot video game...The game studio (I want to say Square Enix..but i don't remember) released a statement saying it essentially flopped due to not meeting their expectations in sales...which were unrealistic to the point of absurdity.(like trying to sell twice as much as the current CoD of that time period)..however the game was actually very well received by the gamers & won numerous awards. MOS did win a few awards but was nominated for a bunch of them. (granted not winning them isn't the same but being nominated for as many as it did means the movie must have done something right moreover than not)

I just don't see the amount of data/reviews & news adding up to show that MoS was more ill-received by the complete viewer base.(theatrically & home video wise)

I actually think that both MoS and BvS have become more accepted since their release. There is still some massive hate. But I think people are starting to see the bigger picture. In 10 years it may well actually be liked.... I love both to the point that BvS is one of my favorite of all time in any genre. But I do see where people did not get what they expected. I only want to see the trilogy completed with a Snyder cut. JL didn't feel like part of the franchise to me

[pottyaboutpotter1]

Originally Posted by meatball_84

This is not entirely accurate. It is a mix of reasons why JL failed. $880 million theatrically for BvS showed that there was a fanbase for the movie. But not hitting $1billion, and poor critic response launched WB into freak out mode and they sabotaged Suicide Squad trying to alter course. They tried to mess with Wonder Woman too, but Jenkins won out and the movie was a massive hit for them.

WB's issue is that they failed to recognize that there was a pretty large fanbase for what Snyder had delivered previously, and still more people curious if they could continue the momentum from WW. The curious crowd were the ones that were going to wait on reviews. However, the behind the scenes on JL were incredibly messy. WB was so focused on the fans that they didnt have, that they completely abandoned the ones that they did have. Replacing Snyder so far into production was concerning, but the way they described the change was that HIS movie was going to be finished, with very slight alterations approved by him. Then they fired JunkieXL, then Mustachegate, then 2hr mandate. Even then, the trailers looked great. All the way up to October when the final trailer came out, it continued to look like a great movie. Obviously it became apparent that the movie being advertised was not what we got. Then the final nail in the coffin came when they held back reviews until the last possible second, which is never a good sign. The word of mouth was bad, and that kept away not only the people on the fence, but also many of the loyal fans that were tired of WBs circus act with this franchise.

In my opinion, the movie would have made more if they released the original version that they set out to make. That would have brought in the established fans for multiple viewings, likely would have had better reviews at least for being one cohesive movie, and would not have had 6 months of bad behind the scenes news. At the same time, they would not have spent another $100 million to drastically change the movie. Even if the Snyder cut had made the same amount as the one we got, the overall budget would have been 20-30% lower. Then they could have just moved on from Snyder after JL came out. Now they are in an even tougher spot trying to figure out how to proceed, how to get new fans, but more importantly(IMO) get back the fans that enjoyed the DCEU before Justice League.

Even as a big Snyder fan I will also admit that in retrospect if they did not want to continue the Snyder vision from MoS and BvS, then they should have stopped before production started and replaced him then. At least they could have found an organic way of transitioning to the new direction instead of this mess. I would have been disappointed, but that is life. The shit storm that came from doing over a years worth of production then drastically altering course was way worse than just pushing back the release and production by 6 months.

Justice League's failure is 100% WBs baby. Snyder makes the movies, and whether or not we like them is subjective. You cannot blame him for moving forward with his vision when his bosses approve the script, the casting, the budget, the sets, the music, the release date and so much more. And you really cannot blame him with they chop out 30 minutes(BvS) at the last second and wonder why critics say the story doesnt flow or make sense. You cannot blame him when he is almost finished with JL and they hijack the movie and change 50% of it and then leave his name as the sole director to take the blame. It is truly a testament to his character that he has not said one negative word about WB after everything that has happened. And it is testament to WB's character when they used his daughters suicide to cover up his firing, and continually lied to the fans about the movie we would receive.

I do think we will get the Snyder cut. If WB can make a profit from it, we will get it.

The film would not have done better if Snyder was in charge. It would have done around the same.

BVS opened massively and then sunk incredibly quickly once WOM got out. The Snyder fanbase is nowhere near as big as you're making them out to be. They make up like 5% of the total audience. A film called Batman v Superman should have made $1 billion on the title alone. The fact it didn't shows a massive problem. Box office analysts have gone on record saying the film made nowhere near as much as it would have done if audiences had actually liked it. There was an incredible amount of hype for BVS prior to release and it was this hype, combined with very little competition at the box office, that led to the film's $873 million total. One WOM got out however, the film sank. The second weekend drop was disastrous in most markets. The film then dropped fast from there, limping its way to its total. The film did as well as it did due to having no competition.

Justice League's poor performance had nothing to do with Snyder being fired. Audiences had lost faith. You don't go from a $150 million plus OW to a sub-$100 million OW just because a director was sacked. You get that from audiences just giving up. Look at Transformers which went from a $100 million OW from one entry to a sub $50 million OW for the fifth film, because audiences had had enough. The Transformers films have their fans. They all turned up for the fifth film. They weren't enough to save it. Same thing for Pirates of the Caribbean.

Audiences don't like the direction Snyder was taking the DCEU so they voted with their wallets and chose not to see another. Just like they did for Transformers. And Pirates. And Resident Evil. And X-Men.

You may have liked Snyder's direction, but many didn't and it was one that wasn't financially viable. WB now have the difficult task of winning audiences back. Yes it's partly their fault, but it doesn't change the facts; audiences don't like the direction Snyder was taking.

[imsounoriginal]

Snyder doing just one movie (or doing the movies for one hero) would've been fine. But handing the keys to kingdom over to him was the problem. And I say this as a Snyder fan. But even the MCU doesn't rely on a single director to helm most of its movies, and even X-Men found other voices beside Bryan Singer.

[car2nst]

Originally Posted by pottyaboutpotter1

The film would not have done better if Snyder was in charge. It would have done around the same.

BVS opened massively and then sunk incredibly quickly once WOM got out. The Snyder fanbase is nowhere near as big as you're making them out to be. They make up like 5% of the total audience. A film called Batman v Superman should have made $1 billion on the title alone. The fact it didn't shows a massive problem. Box office analysts have gone on record saying the film made nowhere near as much as it would have done if audiences had actually liked it. There was an incredible amount of hype for BVS prior to release and it was this hype, combined with very little competition at the box office, that led to the film's $873 million total. One WOM got out however, the film sank. The second weekend drop was disastrous in most markets. The film then dropped fast from there, limping its way to its total. The film did as well as it did due to having no competition.

Justice League's poor performance had nothing to do with Snyder being fired. Audiences had lost faith. You don't go from a $150 million plus OW to a sub-$100 million OW just because a director was sacked. You get that from audiences just giving up. Look at Transformers which went from a $100 million OW from one entry to a sub $50 million OW for the fifth film, because audiences had had enough. The Transformers films have their fans. They all turned up for the fifth film. They weren't enough to save it. Same thing for Pirates of the Caribbean.

Audiences don't like the direction Snyder was taking the DCEU so they voted with their wallets and chose not to see another. Just like they did for Transformers. And Pirates. And Resident Evil. And X-Men.

You may have liked Snyder's direction, but many didn't and it was one that wasn't financially viable. WB now have the difficult task of winning audiences back. Yes it's partly their fault, but it doesn't change the facts; audiences don't like the direction Snyder was taking.

Isn't that kind of contradicting yourself? You cant just say Snyder fans only make up 5% of the general audience & then say in the same post the general audience didn't like the direction Snyder took when according to you 95% of the general audience are not Snyder fans (or more accurately even knows or cares who the director is)

Box office analysts are like weatherman & sports analysts...useless. According to Sports analysts the Golden State Warriors were a sure win for the Championships against The Cavs after breaking The Chicago Bulls season record...THEY were Wrong. Walmart Bean counters can make any number seem good or bad...it's what they do....a useless profession

Audience "voted with their wallets" for The Last Jedi to...& that movie was more divisive than even JL...& even considered a colossal mess given that it is "STAR WARS"....

[gwsat]

Originally Posted by pottyaboutpotter1

Superhero fatigue is a myth. The success of Wonder Woman, Deadpool, Logan and every MCU film attests to that.

The films you claim disprove superhero fatigue really don't, it seems to me. Wonder Woman was the first female oriented film of the genre and featured a beautiful and charismatic protagonist. Deadpool had as its hero a wiseass slacker with a scarred face but who has superpowers and could charm the birds out of the trees. Finally, Logan traced the last act in the life of the aging and ill Wolverine in a moving and effective way.

Each film, then was sui generis and thus unlike any other film, including superhero movies. I own the UHD HDR version of each of those films by the way. I liked them despite their being superhero movies, not because of it. In stark contrast, I thought Justice League was memorable mostly because of how good it looked and sounded. There was a time, though, when I would have given it higher marks but for superhero fatigue.

[meatball_84]

Originally Posted by pottyaboutpotter1

The film would not have done better if Snyder was in charge. It would have done around the same.

BVS opened massively and then sunk incredibly quickly once WOM got out. The Snyder fanbase is nowhere near as big as you're making them out to be. They make up like 5% of the total audience. A film called Batman v Superman should have made $1 billion on the title alone. The fact it didn't shows a massive problem. Box office analysts have gone on record saying the film made nowhere near as much as it would have done if audiences had actually liked it. There was an incredible amount of hype for BVS prior to release and it was this hype, combined with very little competition at the box office, that led to the film's $873 million total. One WOM got out however, the film sank. The second weekend drop was disastrous in most markets. The film then dropped fast from there, limping its way to its total. The film did as well as it did due to having no competition.

Justice League's poor performance had nothing to do with Snyder being fired. Audiences had lost faith. You don't go from a $150 million plus OW to a sub-$100 million OW just because a director was sacked. You get that from audiences just giving up. Look at Transformers which went from a $100 million OW from one entry to a sub $50 million OW for the fifth film, because audiences had had enough. The Transformers films have their fans. They all turned up for the fifth film. They weren't enough to save it. Same thing for Pirates of the Caribbean.

Audiences don't like the direction Snyder was taking the DCEU so they voted with their wallets and chose not to see another. Just like they did for Transformers. And Pirates. And Resident Evil. And X-Men.

You may have liked Snyder's direction, but many didn't and it was one that wasn't financially viable. WB now have the difficult task of winning audiences back. Yes it's partly their fault, but it doesn't change the facts; audiences don't like the direction Snyder was taking.

I do agree that many were not on board with Snyder's DCEU, but I didnt say that Snyder fans would have save JL. But there are many more people that did enjoy the movies that were not Snyder fans. That is who WB abandoned, their established fanbase that was there. Snyder being fired didn't come out until after the movie, but my point was that the negativity from the behind the scenes on JL only made those that were on the fence even more hesitant. And then the poor reviews came out and they decided not to give it another chance. The film was a mess, and should have been delayed and improved instead of just being made shorter. Again, even if Snyder's version would have made dollar for dollar the same amount, it would have been more profitable since the reshoots and changes added a huge amount to the budget.

If they didn't want Snyder's Justice League, they should have never started filming. Simple as that. It would have been better to fire him and start over than to replace him with only 6 months till release. Or release his movie and then part ways. Either would have been better for PR, and probably would have yielded a better finished product. Now we have even less faith in the upcoming slate. If James Wan wasn't doing Aquaman, I wouldn't be excited at all. Being a DC fan is exhausting, you can just never assume that the next movie is gonna be worth a damn. WB just needs to pick a direction and stick to it. They aren't going to have Marvel success overnight, it may be awhile before they have rebuilt fans trust.

[car2nst]

Originally Posted by gwsat

The films you claim disprove superhero fatigue really don't, it seems to me. Wonder Woman was the first female oriented film of the genre and featured a beautiful and charismatic protagonist. Deadpool had as its hero a wiseass slacker with a scarred face but who has superpowers and could charm the birds out of the trees. Finally, Logan traced the last act in the life of the aging and ill Wolverine in a moving and effective way.

Each film, then was sui generis and thus unlike any other film, including superhero movies. I own the UHD HDR version of each of those films by the way. I liked them despite their being superhero movies, not because of it. In stark contrast, I thought Justice League was memorable mostly because of how good it looked and sounded. There was a time, though, when I would have given it higher marks but for superhero fatigue.

Even though I disagree with most of his previous posts I think he meant that in general Super hero fatigue is not setring in as people are realizing & getting different superheroes than just the usual Superman Batman & Spidey. Black Panther is a character that was never done before but still has made huge waves in the comic movie genre. GOTG did this as well & as it branched off of the norm of what alot of people thought superhero movies were.(and forgive my spelling as im in the backseat of a bumpy car ride...lol)

[meatball_84]

Originally Posted by gwsat

The films you claim disprove superhero fatigue really don't, it seems to me. Wonder Woman was the first female oriented film of the genre and featured a beautiful and charismatic protagonist. Deadpool had as its hero a wiseass slacker with a scarred face but who has superpowers and could charm the birds out of the trees. Finally, Logan traced the last act in the life of the aging and ill Wolverine in a moving and effective way.

Each film, then was sui generis and thus unlike any other film, including superhero movies. I own the UHD HDR version of each of those films by the way. I liked them despite their being superhero movies, not because of it. In stark contrast, I thought Justice League was memorable mostly because of how good it looked and sounded. There was a time, though, when I would have given it higher marks but for superhero fatigue.

I don't think that Superhero movie fatigue is happening, but I do think that the audience is expecting more out of them. The days of making crap like Green Lantern, Fan4stic, Batman & Robin and X-Men Origins is coming to an end. Whether you are DC or Marvel, we just want good movies. Marvel fans are pretty in unison about what they like where us DC fans are split. I would watch Snyder DC movies for the rest of my life because they are trying to be something different.

But Wonder Woman, Ragnarok, Black Panther and soon Infinity War have proven that there is still many years ahead. (Even though I really didn't like Ragnarok)