8K discussion thread

[JohnAV]

Sharp to demonstrate 120" 8K lcd TV with 5G modem at IFA - AnandTech

Being the world’s first manufacturer to develop an Ultra-HD television featuring a 7680×4320 resolution, Sharp still has an edge over its rivals on the 8K front. At IFA next week the company plans to showcase its latest 8K devices, including the world’s largest liquid crystal display as well as an 8K TV with an integrated 5G modem.

Well did you solve the issue of having to be so close to the 5G cell tower you might as well have it on your roof? These companies want to proclaim 5G is the answer when they fail to take into issues of using very limited 30 Ghz microwave transmission range and issue with any object in line of sight that severely attenuates the signal.

They might as well hook fiber to each house and use 802.11ac to a TV, thats the real solution.

[renegadeviking]

8k Ultra HD Bluray should use the Versatile Video Coding (VVC) (MPEG-I Part 3)! VVC is out next year. It should also have AV1 codec, because Youtube proves it needs AV1. The Bluray players really need to update to the Webp format for photographs and Opus format for audio.

[sapiendut]

Sure, share your insight to the 8K alliance.

[slimdude]

Nobody is talking about 8K anymore. Whenever I go to Best Buy and other department stores, customers are still buying 4K TVs. 8K is niche and practically nobody (except for the early adopters) is investing in it.

[renegadeviking]

Did you know Raspberry Pi 4 and ODROID UX4 can do 8k video those cost $70 for CPU/RAM/Motherboard? That's their launch price. 8k can be cheap to decode. imho Raspberry Pi 4 decodes h265. 8k TV technology isn't supposed to be expensive with Raspberry pi 4 SOC

[FilmFreakosaurus]

Originally Posted by renegadeviking

8k Ultra HD Bluray should use the Versatile Video Coding (VVC) (MPEG-I Part 3)! VVC is out next year. It should also have AV1 codec, because Youtube proves it needs AV1. The Bluray players really need to update to the Webp format for photographs and Opus format for audio.

It would be great... BUT... there isn't going to be an 8k disc format.

And the majority of major studio projects are still mastered at 2k.

[JohnAV]

Originally Posted by FilmFreakosaurus

It would be great... BUT... there isn't going to be an 8k disc format.

And the majority of major studio projects are still mastered at 2k.

From the May 2019 - Dark clouds invade forecast for 8K TV shipments - Fierce Video article.

Analyst Mark Vena of Moor Insights & Strategy, who watched Rua Aguete’s IFA GPC presentation, said he agreed with her assessment.

“I’ve always been a bit skeptical of 8K’s appeal with mainstream consumers,” he emailed. “Major headwind factors include still not enough meaningful content that clearly demonstrates 8K’s improved video quality (especially vs. 4K); continued sluggishness with the cable providers to upgrade their set top boxes (and the infrastructure) to provide 8K content; and the ongoing availability of very good 4K TVs at terrific (especially sub-$1,500) pricing.”

The biggest TV firm exhibiting at IFA GPC underscored that last point: TCL, which said it’s now the No. 2 vendor worldwide by shipment volume, said it will sell a 55-inch 4K set in Europe for just €699. TCL will also bring 8K sets to the EU market, but they will occupy the highest slot among 11 product lines—three still only HD.

TV[R]EV lead analyst Alan Wolk was as pessimistic as Vena.

“I think the industry is still struggling to make 4K a thing, so I don’t see 8K happening any time soon,” he said in an email. “There may be some special effects movies that benefit from it, but otherwise I don’t see a lot of demand, either for the content or for the TVs.”

Japan—the one market with 8K broadcasts already available, thanks to NHK’s move to push that as part of its coverage of the 2020 Summer Olympics there—doesn’t figure too large in IHS’s latest forecasts either.

“Shipments will still be low at just over 80,000 in 2020,” Gray said. He blamed a “generalized preference for much smaller screen sizes – sizes below where even 4K starts,” and a strong start for OLED screens, which already hold a 45% share of 65-inch screens there.

It’s China that looks to become 8K’s brightest market: IHS now forecasts that shipments will surge to 46,000 in 2019 and then 369,000 in 2020. But that, Gray explained, mainly reflects cultural and supply-chain factors.

“TVs are a status symbol in China in the way they are not in the U.S. or Europe,” he said, citing lower car ownership and smaller homes. “Furthermore, the Chinese market has brutal pricing – 65 inches is a break-even product, all smaller sizes loss-making!”

Asked what might change 8K’s fortunes back in the U.S., Vena suggested that 8K vendors push compelling native content instead of counting on up-scaled 4K fare—although without support from cable TV, that will require exceptionally fast broadband connections untrammeled by data caps.

“The industry may need to hang its hat on promoting upcoming, highly prominent events (like the Olympics) that will best enjoyed on 75-inch class screens and have the best chance of showing the superior image quality,” he said. Then he added a caveat: “To put this in perspective, even last year’s World Series wasn’t broadcast in 4K.”

No matter how much 8K is marketed this year and next you'll still have consumers going hey why are they selling 8K TV's with no 8k content? Why?

Redshark had this comment in their "How to make 4K look like 8k" article

Upscaling
Finally, we're almost certain to see software coming soon that will claim to upscale HD and 4K footage to 8K. I have an 8K TV in my living room (by Samsung) that does exactly that. It seems to work.

How does it do this? In the case of the 8K Samsung, I don't know, although I'm assured that it is genuine AI as opposed to an empty marketing trick. One way that AI might work is by "recognising" objects at various levels of abstraction and drawing the edges of them. This is entirely different to the type of sharpening mentioned above, because it is actually adding information, although this will lower the overall authenticity of the image.

Ultimately, there's a clear message here. Apart from a few tricks mentioned above, the way to make your image look like it was shot at a higher resolution is to put all your effort into making the best image at the current resolution. Use good lenses, light well. Focus accurately. Maybe even use a smaller sensor with a deeper depth of field (contrary to the current fashion for full frame sensors).

4K isn't just 4K and 8K isn't just 8K. I've seen 8K material that looked like 4K or worse, and I've seen 4K that's so good it was hard to believe it wasn't 8K. While 8K is a worthwhile improvement, it really isn't that much better than very good 4K. And with so many 6K cameras coming on to the scene, you'll be able to make 4K that's so good that people will just watch the pictures in awe. No one will even mention resolution.

[Staying Salty]

Originally Posted by stl8k

Interesting to see LG talking about Contrast Modulation as a key metric in their marketing of 8K TVs:

"The ICDM has defined the Contrast Modulation (CM) measurement which describes accurately and quantitatively how distinguishable the neighboring pixels are from each another. For any TV display to deliver the resolution indicated by its pixel count, the ICDM requires the minimum CM value to exceed a threshold of 25 percent for images and 50 percent for text. An 8K TV with a CM value that is lower than these required thresholds does not deliver real 8K, even though the TV may in fact have the sufficient number (7,680 x 4,320) of pixels. Tests performed in accordance with these universally-referenced industry standards resulted in both LG SIGNATURE OLED 8K and LG 8K NanoCell TVs achieving CM values in the 90 percent range, guaranteeing that viewers will be able to actually experience all of the additional detail in the 8K content when viewed on their LG 8K televisions."

http://www.lgnewsroom.com/2019/09/re...lobal-rollout/

Will be interesting to see if that metric gains currency, especially among the sophisticated early buyers of these sets.

To guarantee memorable, cinematic viewing sessions, LG 8K OLED TV and 8K NanoCell TV feature Cinema HDR, encompassing support for Dolby Vision and Advanced HDR by Technicolor up to 4K and HLG and HDR 10 up to 8K.

.

[JohnAV]

Related

[IFA 2019] LG says Samsung’s 8K TV fails internationally agreed standards - Korea Herald

By Lim Jeong-yeo
Samsung opts to give no response

BERLIN -- LG Electronics is adamant that Samsung’s 2019 8K TV does not meet the international standards for 8K resolution and that the company is effectively deceiving consumers.

LG has made similar assertions before, but this is the first time it has officially called out Samsung.

“We believe Samsung’s 8K TV is not really 8K,” said Park Hyoung-sei, executive vice president at LG Electronics TV Business Operation Center.

“Consumers need to know the truth and know what value they are getting for the price they pay.”





LG representatives including Park said at a press briefing at IFA 2019 on Saturday that product-testing and certification bodies Intertek and VDE’s tests of commercialized 8K TVs from Samsung, LG and Sony showed that Samsung’s QLED 8K TV has a contrast modulation level of 12 percent, far below the 50 percent threshold to qualify as 8K resolution.

The VDE report also stated LG’s NanoCell 8K TV has 90 percent CM and Sony’s 8K TV has 70 percent CM.



CM, or contrast modulation, is the level of distinction between the luminance of white and the luminance of black on a screen.

The higher the CM the clearer the distinction between white and black, therefore producing sharper images.

ICDM set the threshold for CM levels for text-displaying screens at 50 percent and image-displaying screens at 25 percent.

In 2012, the ICDM said that contrast modulation is “the best way to describe display resolution” and made it mandatory for companies to report it.



Global tech companies, such as Dolby, Apple, Microsoft, Panasonic, Samsung and LG, had agreed on the guidelines as members of the ICDM.

Therefore, 8K resolution must not only have 33 million pixels -- the result of having 7680 by 4320 pixels -- but also have above 50 percent CM, LG stressed.

Samsung’s TVs had previously abided by this CM level guideline. Samsung had been supporting the importance of CM, according to its company newsroom article dated June 20, 2016.

“You‘ll have to ask Samsung what happened (for their 2019 versions),” Park said.

“The fall in Samsung QLED 8K TVs’ CM happened so abruptly and drastically, we only suspect something Samsung did to improve other features, such as improving the viewing angle, to have resulted in negatively affecting the CM rate.”

Samsung QLED 8K TVs still boast ultra-high definition when seen with human eyes.

LG admitted it is almost impossible to distinguish between 4K and 8K resolutions, but that consumers are entitled to know what product specifications they are paying for.

Samsung is selling its 98-inch QLED 8K TV, the biggest model from the line, at 77 million won ($64,500).

A Samsung representative declined to comment. The company currently has no plans to hold a session countering LG’s claims.

LG is planning to host another press event Sept. 17 at its office in Yeouido, Seoul, to further discuss 8K TV specifications.

Meanwhile, Samsung’s 55-inch QLED 8K TV -- a new addition to the 8K lineup -- was presented the best TV award at IFA 2019 on Saturday.

The world’s first commercial 8K TV was developed by Sharp in December 2017.

Samsung introduced its first 8K TV at IFA 2018 as one of the early pioneers. At this year’s event, several companies showcased 8K TVs, including Japan’s Sony and China’s TCL, reflecting growing interest and research and development on higher-resolution premium screens.

By Lim Jeong-yeo (kaylalim@heraldcorp.com)
Korea Herald correspondent

[JohnAV]

Related
LG warns of real 8K versus fake 8K TVs – how to tell - GadgetGuy

Examples

real 8K versus fake 8K TVs CM


The left illustrates the quality if pixels are dimmed. The right illustrate the ‘holes’ if they are turned off leading to lower resolution.


LG – all pixels on and dimmed to 25%


Competitor – one in four pixels turned off – notice fly screen effect

All its takes is a $1 15x magnifier to expose the truth per author.

[Geoff D]

LG admitted it is almost impossible to distinguish between 4K and 8K resolutions

loooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooool

[FilmFreakosaurus]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

loooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooool

I've been to NHK's 8k television kiosks at NAB and LG is correct (and I'm amazed they let the cat out of the bag)... you really can't tell the difference between consumer 4k and consumer 8k video at this juncture. There may be a number of factors involved IMHO... such as delivery compression quality standards not being up to snuff, etc.



Now, blown up to ginormous proportions (larger than most any average person would ever have at home) with one of their 8k projectors (as was on hand at their enclosed demo booth), 8k looks like 4k without the visible pixel structure due to the magnified image size... that's it. However, like I mentioned, 98% of consumers would never have a mini-IMAX in their homes nor could they afford it if they had the room to install it.



The only thing I see possibly happening is that with 8k you may start to see technology strides that were promised for 4k and were never delivered (color volume and gamut pushing towards Rec 2020 primaries rather than less than or equal to DCI-P3, greater contrast ranges, etc.).



Potentially: 8K = better 4k. That won't exactly cause consumers to trample their neighbors during Black Friday sales events.

[Geoff D]

But but but...everyone with one of them thar new Samsung 8Ks keeps going on about how awesome it is!

[LordoftheRings]

Another point of view (today) ...
• https://www.forbes.com/sites/johnarc...echnology-spat

And this is normal...it was bound to come up ...
• https://www.techspot.com/news/81819-...rld-first.html

[Staying Salty]

LG Demos "Real 8K" Resolution Based on Contrast Modulation at IFA 2019 - YouTube

"Fake 8K". I think we can use this term for consumer content for the next decade or so.

LG vs Samsung

[JohnAV]

Puts a different spin on whether the 8k Association is full of themselves.

Reference 8K TV War As New Association Formed With Brands Taking Sides - ChannelNews

Hours out from LG moving to trash Samsung’s 8K TV’s a new 8K TV Association with their own global standards has been announced, missing from the membership line-up is LG who claims that Samsung TV’s “do not comply”.

the new 8K Association has not embraced industry-wide nor do they have Philips, Sony or LG on board with some insiders claiming that Samsung is the brand that has pushed for the new standards which LG for one is not accepting as being the “right standard” for “high quality” 8K TV output.

Back in 2016 Samsung was highlighting the importance of ICDM measurement as a standard for 8K TV’s, this is the same measurement that LG is adopting.

At this stage the 8K Association which describes itself as a non-profit corporation comprises of 16 companies among them is Samsung, Intel, Panasonic, Hisense and TCLbut no LG Electronics.

So are we returning to the 2 sided industry wars again? Guess who the principal parties who are backing this 8k Association is, well if you guessed Samsung, bingo, with Hisense assisting.

Look at the 8k web association site for the makeup of it.

Does this crap ever end with Samsung?

[SeeMoreDigital]

Personally I'm of the opinion that 8K should primarily be used within the professional sector and for projection at cinemas/movie theatres, for a more detailed big screen experience.

Currently 4K is more than good enough in the home... And will improve further as the technology matures on the back of 8K.

[Geoff D]

I think the reality is that, just as 4K large screen production took with it all the gains that could realistically have been applied to 1080p, 8K production will also segue into the premium market and soon become the de facto standard if you want to buy a killer TV. In other words: they gon' keep all the good stuff for the ATEKAY bidness, son!

[DJR662]

Which is why I think I'll probably end up with an 8K TV whenever I do my next upgrade.

[Geoff D]

Same here.