The Criterion Collection

[senseabove]

Originally Posted by Buscemi

The problem with Dunham is that all of her work (Tiny Furniture, Girls, that memoir she wrote that didn't sell) is an extension of herself. She doesn't try to separate the art from the artist. She puts herself front and center and doesn't care who she hurts in the process.

Which also goes into another problem that goes beyond Dunham: we are too nice to vanity projects. In the past, we weren't afraid to call out things for being too self-indulgent. But now, all we do is play to the filmmaker's egos. James Franco could sure use a talking to about his love of himself in his slapped together projects (though I've read The Disaster Artist is good).

I also can't stand Woody All—wait... who are we talking about?

[SammyJankis]

Ah, we're back at this discussion.

[mja345]

There are a lot of great films that are vanity projects. "8 1/2" is the ultimate vanity project. Great film. Woody Allen's "Stardust Memories", inspired by "8 1/2", is a major vanity project and is very good. Soderbergh's "Schizopolis" is a vanity project that's also fantastic. There are many others I'm not going to list.

The key is vanity projects have to be made by people who are really talented. When they're made by people who aren't quite as talented (i.e. "An Alan Smithee Film: Burn Hollywood" Burn", Joe Eszterhas' vanity project), then they can be insufferable.

[Feiereisel]

Originally Posted by Buscemi

The problem with Dunham is that all of her work (Tiny Furniture, Girls, that memoir she wrote that didn't sell) is an extension of herself. She doesn't try to separate the art from the artist. She puts herself front and center and doesn't care who she hurts in the process.

Which also goes into another problem that goes beyond Dunham: we are too nice to vanity projects. In the past, we weren't afraid to call out things for being too self-indulgent. But now, all we do is play to the filmmaker's egos. James Franco could sure use a talking to about his love of himself in his slapped together projects (though I've read The Disaster Artist is good).

All art is an extension of its artist, and all art is varying degrees of personal, but in the case of Girls and Tiny Furniture viewers seem to be especially eager to heap blame or praise on solely Dunham, to exclusion of the others involved in the creative aspects of their productions. I'm not suggesting that negative response is invalid, I just mean to note that the shape it takes, as related to this particular artist and her work, makes me increasingly uncomfortable. It's not a question of validity so much as a question of its thoughtfulness and tact.

An example: You've cited two pieces of fiction and a memoir as equivalent texts, but the memoir is a very different work; memoirs are inherently about their authors. Objecting to an author being "front and center" in their own memoir is an unworkable conceit.

I'm not even going to tread into mja345's response other than to say that framing a personal attack on how an artist looks as "honest" criticism is one of the discomforting things I alluded to in my initial post.

[The Great Owl]

In this age of “Me too.” and due attention finally being given to the long-standing issue of sexual harassment, I am inclined to recommend The Silence of the Lambs even more now purely in that regard.

To all of my fellow men reading this thread...

If you want to get a true feel for how difficult it may be for a competent woman to make her way in the professional world, then watch The Silence of the Lambs.

Jodie Foster's Clarice Starling has to deal with unwelcome attention and advances every step of the way during her FBI work. She is hit on by men a number of times, the most icky incident involving Dr. Chilton, whose “once over twice” gaze at her is all too noticeable. She is excluded from certain facets of the investigation because of her sex (the autopsy room scene, etc.). Even seemingly innocuous moments, like Clarice being a short woman in an elevator full of tall men, have an overtly intimidating vibe to them.

Jonathan Demme puts an uncomfortable focus on faces and close-ups during The Silence of the Lambs. I always joke that the movie is basically 85% close-ups of people's faces. This is an intentional move, not only because it makes certain characters creepier, but because it also sheds light on supposedly everyday males who are lusting after Foster's character with their eyes.

After watching that movie up on its release, I had a newfound empathy for women in the workplace. Work sucks bad enough in its own right without having to deal with the sort of stuff that women deal with even today.

In fact, The Silence of the Lambs could be released right now in 2017 and not seem the least bit dated in this regard. That's a sad commentary on the state of things.

[RCRochester]

Originally Posted by mja345

See, I'm not someone who thinks Criterion should stick to some arbitrary level of quality. If Criterion put out "Death Wish" (1974), for instance, I would think it's great because it's a very notable film in its particular genre. Others may feel like its beneath Criterion. If they put out "Commando" (1985), that would also be great because it's the pinnacle of absurd action films. These would also be two huge sellers for the label.

I'm not a fan of Dunham's work. I would never buy "Tiny Furniture", but if there were some people who were happy it got released, great. Let's be honest, the vitriol regarding Dunham is exacerbated by the fact she is a very physically unattractive woman. Not saying it's right, but it's true. If she were an attractive woman doing the exact same show, getting naked all the time, with the same act off-screen, the criticism would decrease dramatically.

Buscemi's criticism of Dunham above is very valid, but I've seen a lot of criticism of her which basically boils down to, "Damn, this girl is ugly." And that's unfortunate.

Some people may dislike Lena Dunham because of her looks and poke fun or attack her because of that, but I get the vibe that people dislike her more because they see her as an outspoken privileged millennial female.

[DaBargainHunta]

Originally Posted by mja345

See, I'm not someone who thinks Criterion should stick to some arbitrary level of quality. If Criterion put out "Death Wish" (1974), for instance, I would think it's great because it's a very notable film in its particular genre. Others may feel like its beneath Criterion. If they put out "Commando" (1985), that would also be great because it's the pinnacle of absurd action films. These would also be two huge sellers for the label

I think these would be great additions, and it's hardly out of character for Criterion either - they put Robocop and Armageddon once upon a time. I wish they'd get back to covering a wider spectrum of films like they used to. Then again, with all of the people in this thread and elsewhere raising their noses at The Breakfast Club, maybe the core Criterion audience has changed since then.

But Criterion needs to expand beyond "the core Criterion audience" if it wants to increase sales and generate new fans.

I will say that a friend of mine, who is a Blu-ray collector but mainly sticks to the Marvel/DC/etc. type of stuff, recently mentioned a Criterion release to me for the first time ever. It was The Breakfast Club.

Originally Posted by mja345

I'm not a fan of Dunham's work. I would never buy "Tiny Furniture", but if there were some people who were happy it got released, great. Let's be honest, the vitriol regarding Dunham is exacerbated by the fact she is a very physically unattractive woman. Not saying it's right, but it's true. If she were an attractive woman doing the exact same show, getting naked all the time, with the same act off-screen, the criticism would decrease dramatically.

Buscemi's criticism of Dunham above is very valid, but I've seen a lot of criticism of her which basically boils down to, "Damn, this girl is ugly." And that's unfortunate.

I think people dislike her because she admitted to molesting her sister.

[SammyJankis]

The Silence of the Lambs is pretty much Male Gaze: The Movie, and it beautifully subverts and dissects this with the associated conventions and tropes. It's more than just a "serial killer" movie.

[mja345]

Originally Posted by Feiereisel

All art is an extension of its artist, and all art is varying degrees of personal, but in the case of Girls and Tiny Furniture viewers seem to be especially eager to heap blame or praise on solely Dunham, to exclusion of the others involved in the creative aspects of their productions. I'm not suggesting that negative response is invalid, I just mean to note that the shape it takes, as related to this particular artist and her work, makes me increasingly uncomfortable. It's not a question of validity so much as a question of its thoughtfulness and tact.

An example: You've cited two pieces of fiction and a memoir as equivalent texts, but the memoir is a very different work; memoirs are inherently about their authors. Objecting to an author being "front and center" in their own memoir is an unworkable conceit.

I'm not even going to tread into mja345's response other than to say that framing a personal attack on how an artist looks as "honest" criticism is one of the discomforting things I alluded to in my initial post.

Did I say that I find criticism of her looks to be "an honest criticism"? No. I said "Let's be honest, that's part of why she is criticized to such a degree." I said that it is unfortunate that criticism of her looks seems to be a part of the vitriol against her.

There are a lot of reasons why people don't like her and her work. One is what RCRochester mentioned. She depicts the life of a privileged millenial, which isn't going to fly with some people. But, we're living in an imperfect world, and people unfortunately get judged by their physical appearance sometimes. And, in Dunham's case, her looks play into why the vitriol towards her is so nasty, way before she had some of her off-screen comments people didn't care for. Again, I'm not saying it's right or just, but it's reality.

[The Great Owl]

Just for the record, I think that Lena Dunham is actually somewhat attractive in that “cool girl next door” sort of way.

She has too much ink for my tastes, but, then again, a lot of women do these days. A few years ago, I just sort of threw my hands up in exasperation and decided to roll with the fact that tattoos are more and more popular.

I cannot comment on her movies or television shows simply because they haven't fallen into my viewing radar yet.

[italy12]

Originally Posted by buscemi

what did i do wrong?

What haven't you done?????

[AaronJ]

Originally Posted by ShellOilJunior

I was a youngster when the film was in theaters. My buddy and I saw TMNT 2 while his dad went to see The Silence of the Lambs.

I went with a woman I was completely in love with, and living with, but not involved with -- I know, sounds weird. Whatever.

But I will never forget that experience of watching the film with Annie. We left the theater, barely talked, went to the bar, and then discussed it. I really believed it was terrifying. This was a long time ago. People weren't that used to this sort of story. Now, everyone is familiar with not only the film itself, but many parodies of it.

But watch it for the first time in the theater, when it first came out? Damn. That was an experience.

[Feiereisel]

Originally Posted by mja345

Did I say that I find criticism of her looks to be "an honest criticism"? No. I said "Let's be honest, that's part of why she is criticized to such a degree." I said that it is unfortunate that criticism of her looks seems to be a part of the vitriol against her.

There are a lot of reasons why people don't like her and her work. One is what RCRochester mentioned. She depicts the life of a privileged millenial, which isn't going to fly with some people. But, we're living in an imperfect world, and people unfortunately get judged by their physical appearance sometimes. And, in Dunham's case, her looks play into why the vitriol towards her is so nasty, way before she had some of her off-screen comments people didn't care for. Again, I'm not saying it's right or just, but it's reality.

Regarding the first point, you may want to return to your previous post and edit it for clarity. Parts of it come off differently based on some of the word choices.

To the second, obviously the the work takes on privilege and millennial culture, but based on my interactions with people about it, I'm not sure some viewers necessarily have a bead on what it's saying or suggesting about those things, especially as an evolving dialogue over the course of Girls. It's (occasionally very) far from perfect, but not worthless.

And in response to the "it's reality" thing--there's no reason we need to accept that. As the people participating in the discussion, we can work to guide and elevate to make it more thoughtful and substantive.

(Which, based on the some of the posts in between these...is not an occasion we're really rising to. )

[Fat Phil]

Originally Posted by The Great Owl

If you want to get a true feel for how difficult it may be for a competent woman to make her way in the professional world, then watch The Silence of the Lambs.

Jodie Foster's Clarice Starling has to deal with unwelcome attention and advances every step of the way during her FBI work. She is hit on by men a number of times, the most icky incident involving Dr. Chilton, whose “once over twice” gaze at her is all too noticeable.

Great post. I get the feeling anyone who converses with Dr Chilton feels a strong urge to take a long hot shower afterwards. It's funny that in a mental asylum where it's very possible an inmate may ejaculate on you as you walk past, you could leave the premises saying "man, how creepy was that general administrator huh!? Eww"

[bwdowiak]

Originally Posted by Feiereisel

Same thing happened with the Baumbach/Gerwig stuff last week, and to some a lesser extent with the Personal Shopper discussion after the review of the disc went up. Makes me wonder how many people are lurking here, worried to jump in for fear of being sliced for liking something they honestly respond to or feel does have something to offer. And that worries me.

while you're at it, there is also the tendency to attempt to tear apart someone's logic when they've expressed an opinion that is contrary to what is widely accepted - almost as if saying, "I don't agree with you, therefore you must be contradicting yourself with your stated opinion."

some people seem to need to reconcile the fact that someone doesn't love what they do and this is the rationalization they seek.

just sayin' though..
not looking to argue with anybody.

[Ray Jackson]

Originally Posted by SammyJankis

The Silence of the Lambs is pretty much Male Gaze: The Movie, and it beautifully subverts and dissects this with the associated conventions and tropes. It's more than just a "serial killer" movie.

That's interesting.

First time I've heard someone reference that film in relation to the idea of the male gaze. Personally I've always viewed the male gaze as a situation, be it in painting or film, where the female subject/character is depicted as a helpless and/or passive target of male objectification or fetishization.

Whereas I view Clarice Starling as an independent female character who takes a very strong stance against the male antagonists in the film.

...even though the climactic scene in Buffalo Bill's dungeon is a literal, visual depiction of the male gaze.

[RCRochester]

Originally Posted by The Great Owl

Just for the record, I think that Lena Dunham is actually somewhat attractive in that “cool girl next door” sort of way.

She has too much ink for my tastes, but, then again, a lot of women do these days. A few years ago, I just sort of threw my hands up in exasperation and decided to roll with the fact that tattoos are more and more popular.

I cannot comment on her movies or television shows simply because they haven't fallen into my viewing radar yet.

I'm totally in the same boat as you. I don't find her unattractive at all, but I am put off by the large arm tattoo she has. That's just not my thing. I've not seen Tiny Furniture nor Girls but I did see her host an episode of SNL and I found her to be appealing at the time.

Just to reiterate my earlier post, she's an outspoken young female and sometimes that all people need to hate on a person, especially males, and especially when they're commenting on the internet.

[Reddington]

Is it bad that I have absolutely no idea who Lena Dunham is? (Other than from reading here that she made a film in the Criterion Collection that quite a few people don't like).

[AaronJ]

Originally Posted by Reddington

Is it bad that I have absolutely no idea who Lena Dunham is? (Other than from reading here that she made a film in the Criterion Collection that quite a few people don't like).

No.

I understand that she's talented. But I have never been into her work at all. So don't worry about it.

[llj]

Lena Dunham is not for me. However, I do take her seriously as a "real" artist and she passes all the attributes of being one.