The Criterion Collection

[jayembee]

Originally Posted by dwk

And Cohen, other than Daughters of the Dust, what African American directed films have they released?

It's not something that's in their wheelhouse. Cohen has two imprints:

Cohen Media Group, their main imprint, is (for the most part) for films from 2010 onward. The bulk of them are French films, with a smattering of films from other foreign countries...a Chinese film here, a Turkish film there. There are hardly any American films, and what there is tends to be documentaries -- Erik Greenberg Anjou's film about deli owners, Bogdanovich's Buster Keaton doc, that sort of thing. I'm not sure how many African-American-made docs would even be available to licensing.

Cohen Film Collection is for pre-2010 films. Again, largely French, a few Italian or British films. They have maybe a dozen and a half American films, almost all of which are films they own outright as part of their acquisition of the Rohaurer Collection. As far as I can see, they have only three American films that are not part of that catalog, and from later than 1952: Chuck Workman's Orson Welles documentary, Magician (2014), Joan Micklin Silver's Between the Lines (1977), and Julie Dash's Daughters of the Dust.

So I wouldn't expect a lot of African-American films to come out of Cohen (or much of any American indie films). Quite frankly, I was rather astonished that they released Daughters of the Dust -- I would've expected it from Kino, who had released it on DVD back circa 2000.

[jayembee]

Originally Posted by HillSprinter

I’m definitely not suggesting African-American filmmakers are “less important”, whatever that even means. Odd you’d take it that way? But my love and appreciation for World Cinema comes from seeing, experiencing and exploring different cultures/histories from other parts of the globe, and the stories and landscapes these filmmakers present.

I'm taking it that way because your question suggested that there was no reason why Criterion should have AA filmmakers in the Collection when they have plenty of other (non-African) American filmmakers in it.

I feel the same way you do about World Cinema. I, too, appreciate the different perspectives and experiences of other cultures. But the point here is that films by African-American filmmakers also present different perspectives and experiences than what I, as an old white guy from the (mostly white) 'burbs have. Daughters of the Dust, Ganja & Hess, even something like Cotton Comes to Harlem or Menace II Society, are as alien to my personal experience as anything from Iran, Japan, India, Senegal, Hungary, or wherever.

[dwk]

Originally Posted by jayembee

It's not something that's in their wheelhouse. Cohen has two imprints:

Cohen Media Group, their main imprint, is (for the most part) for films from 2010 onward. The bulk of them are French films, with a smattering of films from other foreign countries...a Chinese film here, a Turkish film there. There are hardly any American films, and what there is tends to be documentaries -- Erik Greenberg Anjou's film about deli owners, Bogdanovich's Buster Keaton doc, that sort of thing. I'm not sure how many African-American-made docs would even be available to licensing.

Cohen Film Collection is for pre-2010 films. Again, largely French, a few Italian or British films. They have maybe a dozen and a half American films, almost all of which are films they own outright as part of their acquisition of the Rohaurer Collection. As far as I can see, they have only three American films that are not part of that catalog, and from later than 1952: Chuck Workman's Orson Welles documentary, Magician (2014), Joan Micklin Silver's Between the Lines (1977), and Julie Dash's Daughters of the Dust.

So I wouldn't expect a lot of African-American films to come out of Cohen (or much of any American indie films). Quite frankly, I was rather astonished that they released Daughters of the Dust -- I would've expected it from Kino, who had released it on DVD back circa 2000.

You did see the post I was responding to that claimed Cohen was alongside Kino as a risk taking source of African American directed films?

[jayembee]

Originally Posted by dwk

You did see the post I was responding to that claimed Cohen was alongside Kino as a risk taking source of African American directed films?

Yes, I did see that post. Apparently, though, you didn't, even though you quoted it thus:

Originally Posted by bergman864

That hasn't stopped Kino Lorber or Cohen Media releasing historically significant films and projects that aren't huge sellers.

I didn't see bergman864 claim anything regarding African-American films with respect to Cohen.

[JackBros]

Originally Posted by bergman864

I doubt Smiethereens, The Story of Temple Drake, and The Cloud-Capped Star are flying off the shelves but it didn't stop them from getting Criterion releases.

Not starting anything, but just want to say that they might have been able to get those titles for a much cheaper price compared to more popular titles making the amount of copies needed to be sold to break even much lower. Maybe the rights holders approached Criterion about a release too, there are numerous reasons that a film gets added.

Some titles that Criterion might want to release might have the rights holders asking for too much compared to how many they think they'll sell. Sure, you still have the more popular titles selling enough to make up for titles that don't, but it's a careful balancing act.

Also, The Story of Temple Drake is exactly the kind of film I personally want Criterion to put out as it didn't even have a home video release (past some poor bootlegs) till their release. It's a great example of Pre-Code Hollywood and a piece of film history that was locked away until 2011. I was even looking to pick up it and Design for Living next time we Canadians get a sale just to show my support for more Pre-Code film love. There's also the lovely Dietrich and Sternberg boxset but I'd much rather pick up the lovely Indicator release of it.

[RCRochester]

Originally Posted by JackBros

Not starting anything, but just want to say that they might have been able to get those titles for a much cheaper price compared to more popular titles making the amount of copies needed to be sold to break even much lower. Maybe the rights holders approached Criterion about a release too, there are numerous reasons that a film gets added.

Some titles that Criterion might want to release might have the rights holders asking for too much compared to how many they think they'll sell. Sure, you still have the more popular titles selling enough to make up for titles that don't, but it's a careful balancing act.

Also, The Story of Temple Drake is exactly the kind of film I personally want Criterion to put out as it didn't even have a home video release (past some poor bootlegs) till their release. It's a great example of Pre-Code Hollywood and a piece of film history that was locked away until 2011. I was even looking to pick up it and Design for Living next time we Canadians get a sale just to show my support for more Pre-Code film love. There's also the lovely Dietrich and Sternberg boxset but I'd much rather pick up the lovely Indicator release of it.

I think people are missing the point that he was trying to make with that statement.

It was in direct response to someone talking about how Criterion are a business and that Wes Anderson films make money while nobody is "clamoring" for a Gordon Parks title.

And while the latter may be true, the fact that people don't "clamor" for certain titles hasn't stopped Criterion from releasing them in the past because part of their mandate is to release obscure foreign, arthouse or underground films that aren't exactly in demand because there is merit, whether it be artistic or cultural, in doing so.

Thus, making the excuse that Criterion haven't released more films by African-American directors because people aren't clamoring for them is no excuse at all.

[MifuneFan]

I wonder what's the story with Barry Jenkins' Medicine for Melancholy? According to the article, Becker reached out to Jenkins about licensing it in 2018, but doesn't go beyond that. So, did they get it, and just haven't revealed that, or did they run into roadblocks?

[shadowofdreams]

Part of what I find funny about this is that IIRC there was a similar issue a few years back with a female film critic calling out the same thing, albeit with a more broad "Criterion does not have enough minority-directed films", Criterion giving a very similar response, and I think they've actually been improving significantly in the past year; Pretty much every month has had at least one African-American or Female directed film, and the Criterion Channel has done a great job spotlighting African-American and Female directed films.

On some level the piece feels to me like a common tactic in modern discourse, where there is a broader issue (The underrepresentation of minorities in popular media) and a random part of the issue is taken and blown up for a case study, which has merit as it allows for a more focused examination while giving ideas that can be broadly applied, but can often feel like pinning the broader issue on a single entity. The uncomfortable truth is that people are happy to post on twitter about how they want more representation, but then cringe when it comes time to actually buy it, and its not even a social issue; I see it happen a TON with stuff like "X should release more Y genre films!" then X releases a Y genre film and all the people saying it start hemming and hawing and wincing and saying they will wait for sales. Its part of what killed Twilight Time.

I guess what I'm getting at is like, I would be interested to see what, say, the NYTimes writer would place as a more balanced schedule, and I'd be interested in seeing how it plays out. I personally really want more African-American cinema released by Criterion, but I also have thought that the reason there isn't more is because the market isn't willing to fund it.

EDIT: NYT added an addendum asking for reader submissions of African-American directed films to be added to the collection, and I must say, that is a great idea. Its both a great way to help Criterion bridge that gap and it allows people to do something about the issue rather than just be angry. I'm super excited for what they choose!

[BluProofie]

Originally Posted by MifuneFan

I wonder what's the story with Barry Jenkins' Medicine for Melancholy? According to the article, Becker reached out to Jenkins about licensing it in 2018, but doesn't go beyond that. So, did they get it, and just haven't revealed that, or did they run into roadblocks?

One of the tweets from the article’s author says that they “hope” to release it:

https://twitter.com/kylebuchanan/sta...956771330?s=21

[JackBros]

Originally Posted by RCRochester

I think people are missing the point that he was trying to make with that statement.

It was in direct response to someone talking about how Criterion are a business and that Wes Anderson films make money while nobody is "clamoring" for a Gordon Parks title.

And while the latter may be true, the fact that people don't "clamor" for certain titles hasn't stopped Criterion from releasing them in the past because part of their mandate is to release obscure foreign, arthouse or underground films that aren't exactly in demand because there is merit, whether it be artistic or cultural, in doing so.

Thus, making the excuse that Criterion haven't released more films by African-American directors because people aren't clamoring for them is no excuse at all.

Yeah I also don't believe that a lack of clamoring for a title dictates how Criterion goes about picking when you actually look at what titles have been released. I'm still of the belief that the lacking of African-American directors in the collection, past the already raised issue of their lacking numbers in the industry, might be due to licensing issues as that seems to be a commonly cited problem when labels are unable to release something.

If titles like the previously mentioned The Story of Temple Drake can get a release, based solely around the idea of measured popularity levels equaling sales and not license issues, then I don't see any reasons against more African-American directors also getting in. I realize that's a terribly convoluted way of putting it but I'm currently having a brain fart. Personally would love to see Criterion focus on giving nice releases to neglected titles of any stripe that aren't easy to access or buy

[dwk]

If Criterion were only concerned about sells numbers, I doubt if we'd be on Vol. 3 of the WCP boxsets.

[ElliesDad]

Two quick questions and a couple of idle thoughts:

1. How long is this discussion going to go on for?

2. Where is the moderator?

During the decade that I've been enjoying this forum I've been aware that one of the key principles that has contributed to its success is the stated objective of avoiding the introduction of political issues and discourse into a venue devoted solely to the enjoyment and discussion of cinema. And I've seen that guideline enforced on any number of occasions.

The current discussion, continuing now for over a dozen pages, dealing with such loaded social issues as 'cancel culture', the imposition of cultural quotas, and the current racialization of everything American is, I believe, in conflict with the guidelines.

The discussion, with everyone tip-toeing daintily about whatever 'issues' have been presented, for days on end, has in any case produced not a lot, apart from some virtue-signaling. The bottom line seems to be that people will buy what they want to buy and producers will produce whatever they can sell, whether it be widgets or art. So, has anyone seen a good movie lately?

[joy-division]

[RCRochester]

Originally Posted by ElliesDad

So, has anyone seen a good movie lately?

The Hit.

Watched it on the Criterion Channel last night. I'd never seen it before, I'd never even heard of it before I discovered it while browsing for something to watch. It was a cracking little crime film, not at all how I expected it to turn out, especially the scene

[Show spoiler]where Stamp's character finally realizes he's about to get shot and all the stuff he'd been preaching earlier about being ready to face death because it's a natural progression, etc. turns out to be crap!

Great cast: Terence Stamp, John Hurt and Tim Roth in one of his earliest roles. Glad to see there's a physical release coming out in a couple of months, but if anyone wants to check it out now and has the Channel, I thoroughly recommend it.

[captainron_howdy]

Originally Posted by ElliesDad

So, has anyone seen a good movie lately?

I watched The Comfort of Strangers for the first time in a while recently and it's even creepier than I remembered. I can certainly give that one a recommendation especially if you're a fan of Christopher Walken. I want more Schrader films in the collection, his work as a Director is mostly overlooked. Light Sleeper and Affliction would be most welcome.

[JackBros]

Originally Posted by ElliesDad

So, has anyone seen a good movie lately?

I watched Mr.Smith Goes to Washington after having recorded it months ago and really loved it, but then again I'm a big big fan of Jimmy Stewart so I've liked all the films I've seen him in so far.

[Aclea]

The Ear (Ucho), an absolutely extraordinary not-so-paranoid-after-all masterpiece banned by the Czech communist authorities for 20 years drawing comparisons with a dysfunctional marriage and a dysfunctional state that eavesdrops to gain advantage set over one long night's journey into utter despair. The most powerful film I've seen in years.

[DaBargainHunta]

Originally Posted by ElliesDad

1. How long is this discussion going to go on for?

What disappoints me the most is that the discussion devolved into such an utterly boring and unoriginal one.

The Times article, for all its flaws (perceived and otherwise), was a perfect opportunity for us to have an interesting discussion on which black filmmakers and movies we'd want to see in the Collection. I tried to get that going. I'm sure a couple of others did too. That line of conversation went mostly nowhere, to the detriment of this thread.

Instead, it was constant back-and-forth bickering about cancel culture, lazy journalism, the business/financial effect the article might have on Criterion's bottom line, etc. Yes, it's understandable that all of that would have to be brought up as part of the discussion - I get that - but the actual movies unfortunately took a backseat to all the other crap.

Originally Posted by ElliesDad

So, has anyone seen a good movie lately?

I've been participating in a Criterion film club on another site.

The Criterions I've watched over the past few weeks include:

Chungking Express: I posted my thoughts a few weeks ago.

Ugetsu: Rightly considered a classic. Without spoiling anything, this is a very haunting tale about the cost of ambition using the backdrop of ancient Japanese folklore.

Black Orpheus: Obama famously hates this, but I didn't. A take on the Greek myth of Orpheus and Eurydice set in Brazil's Carnival (their equivalent of Mardi Gras) in the late '50s. Like Chungking was for Hong Kong, this was a cool look at the non-tourist parts of Brazil.

Viridiana: Condemned by the Catholic Church and banned in Spain but probably not shocking by today's standards. I found it very compelling at first, but my interest waned after a key event in the movie and it never quite recovered for me. Very, very cynical. One of those that I appreciated more than loved.

Picnic at Hanging Rock: Several schoolgirls disappear after a field trip to Hanging Rock in Australia in the year 1900. Quite unsettling early Peter Weir picture.

And a bunch of others, but I doubt the highfalutin folks here want to hear my thoughts on Disney's Magic Camp or Netflix's The Sleepover.

[RCRochester]

Originally Posted by captainron_howdy

I watched The Comfort of Strangers for the first time in a while recently and it's even creepier than I remembered. I can certainly give that one a recommendation especially if you're a fan of Christopher Walken. I want more Schrader films in the collection, his work as a Director is mostly overlooked. Light Sleeper and Affliction would be most welcome.

I watched Light Sleeper (and Comfort of Strangers for that matter) on the Channel back when they had a Paul Schrader tribute. That was another one I’d never seen before and back when it first came out I didn’t really know much about Schrader so I never bothered with it. Anyway, it turned out to be a great film that fits right in with other films he’s been involved with like Taxi Driver, American Gigolo, Bringing out the Dead, etc. I’d also welcome a physical release of that.

[NeoNical]

Originally Posted by DaBargainHunta

I've been participating in a Criterion film club on another site.

The Criterions I've watched over the past few weeks include:

Chungking Express: I posted my thoughts a few weeks ago.

Ugetsu: Rightly considered a classic. Without spoiling anything, this is a very haunting tale about the cost of ambition using the backdrop of ancient Japanese folklore.

Black Orpheus: Obama famously hates this, but I didn't. A take on the Greek myth of Orpheus and Eurydice set in Brazil's Carnival (their equivalent of Mardi Gras) in the late '50s. Like Chungking was for Hong Kong, this was a cool look at the non-tourist parts of Brazil.

Viridiana: Condemned by the Catholic Church and banned in Spain but probably not shocking by today's standards. I found it very compelling at first, but my interest waned after a key event in the movie and it never quite recovered for me. Very, very cynical. One of those that I appreciated more than loved.

Picnic at Hanging Rock: Several schoolgirls disappear after a field trip to Hanging Rock in Australia in the year 1900. Quite unsettling early Peter Weir picture.

Ah! I found someone who saw the Criterion Club on r/Criterion! I haven't joined in any of these discussions (I wrote something for Viridiana but deleted it I think) but I think it was a wonderful idea. Sadly, it's not being too well recognized by the community as it disappears after a while and the collection posts pile up on top of it, making it hard to find the post. I have seen all of these except for Black Orpheus but it's great to finally have someone who is willing to post discussions instead of repetitive questions and collections (I sometimes like seeing people's collections only if they have a title that I genuinely love. Other than that, most of the collections aren't that interesting unless if they talk about it in the comments.)

I wonder what next week's going to be... (I don't think I'll join in the conversation but it's certainly much better than the What Films Have You Watched Lately thread which consists mostly of upvotes. I'm hoping that one day, r/Criterion will become a discussion thread and less of a collection thread!