4K Movies Releases

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by FilmFreakosaurus

Can UHD Blu-ray even be encoded for variable frame rate shot movies? Let along have our displays not freak out?

Though, perhaps they'll encode these masters at a fixed frame rate but then do a kind on-the-fly/scene-by-scene pull-down frame conversion. Not as good as visually, but better than nothing.

Kind of like TV shows shot at 24 fps except for the parts that are supposed to be a POV from a video camera, so that even though the final master is 24 fps, the 30 fps shots end up looking different and a little more smooth.

Yeah, Penton made it quite clear that the frame rate as put onto disc or DCP itself will not change mid-flow, it'll be 60fps, say, in pure technical terms - BUT instead of everything in the source itself being 60fps the lower fps scenes will likely have duplicate frames added to make up the difference.

In case folks then think "but won't that add weird movement or motion blur?", look at it this way: if you watch a 1080i60 Blu-ray like Oklahoma! output at 1080p60 then you're seeing a similar thing already: the source itself is 30p, encoded to 60i akin to PsF, but it's being deinterlaced then frame doubled to output at 60p with no untoward effects.

[Penton-Man]

Contrary to original expectations, unfortunately, the opportunity for typical commercial venues to show any HFR version of BLLHW (be it 120fps or even a 60fps iteration) is not working out quite as originally planned….meaning MOST theater goers will only see the 24fps version. I can't say anymore.

Unless quickly rectified with TOs, and it’s getting pretty much too late now, this lack of HFR theatrical fulfillment should serve as encouragement to Sony to somewhat redeem itself by at least offering fans a 60fps version on Ultra HD Blu-ray.

Otherwise, why even brag about Billy Lynn’s Long Halftime Walk during the Keynote at mipcom 2016 in Cannes….

Sony CEO Says "There's More Good Television Programming Than Ever Before" - YouTube

Step up Kaz….is Sony….Can-do or Can-not?

Think about it….http://entertainment.inquirer.net/20...warf-hollywood

[Dubstar]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Contrary to original expectations, unfortunately, the opportunity for typical commercial venues to show any HFR version of BLLHW (be it 120fps or even a 60fps iteration) is not working out quite as originally planned….meaning MOST theater goers will only see the 24fps version. I can't say anymore.

Unless quickly rectified with TOs, and it’s getting pretty much too late now, this lack of HFR theatrical fulfillment should serve as encouragement to Sony to somewhat redeem itself by at least offering fans a 60fps version on Ultra HD Blu-ray.

Otherwise, why even brag about Billy Lynn’s Long Halftime Walk during the Keynote at mipcom 2016 in Cannes….

Sony CEO Says "There's More Good Television Programming Than Ever Before" - YouTube

Step up Kaz….is Sony….Can-do or Can-not?

Think about it….http://entertainment.inquirer.net/20...warf-hollywood

it's beginning to look like the 3D engagements are only happening at the New York City and Los Angeles theaters [2 screens total]

[Penton-Man]

For Ang and everyone’s expectations on the panel as to deliverables to local Cinemas…fast forward to the 1:04:00 mark of the linked YouTube about BLLHW included in this past post to fitprod where I exclusively revealed the 4K 3D 120fps west coast exhibition goal, etc…. https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...l#post12225910

or if that explanation starting at ~ 1:04:00 is a little too comprehensively number-ish for listeners, just skip back to the 54:45 mark for the 15 sec. bottom line about HFR capability of the installed base.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Dubstar

it's beginning to look like the 3D engagements are only happening at the New York City and Los Angeles theaters [2 screens total]

Sending out test DCPs in advance is minimal effort and foresight. There should have been more spoon feeding to the projectionist corps to catch everyone up to speed with properly showing the premium versions. More collaboration with the server manufacturers to do their part at spoon feeding the theaters.

With the Hobbit2 (like it or hate the visuals of the movie, doesn’t matter, as we’re talking about ACCESS to formats here) Wendy Aylsworth (former V.P. of Warner Bros. Tech Operations) proved, given due diligence, such ground breaking theatrical exhibitions can be successful on a respectably large scale, e.g.

 3900 locations
 283 film prints
 3,300 3D screens
 1480 were in 3D HFR
 812 straight 2D HFR

5 image versions sent to U.S. theaters:

2D at 24 fps
3D at 24 fps (3.5 fL)
3D at 24 fps (7 fL)
3D at 48 fps (3.5 fL)
3D at 48 fps (7 fL)

Heck in 2005 when Disney showed Chicken Little (its first CG 3D film) even that played in about 85 theaters. At this juncture the only way to salvage this situation is to have Sony clarify its advisement to http://www.natoonline.org/ or set up a committee to quickly qualify at least some theaters (perhaps not 1480 like with Hobbit, but 148 would be nice) who Sony decision makers confidently believe are capable of accurately playing the premium formats.

[Penton-Man]

^
Because whether responsible or not (and the creatives are not responsible for logistics), when the rumors about lack of premium distribution formats hit the press, everyone associated with BLLHW will end up looking like….

Days Of Thunder - Lookin like a monkey ****in a football out there! - YouTube

Otherwise even this won’t save the day.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

...properly showing the premium versions...

Note to Dubstar: by “premium versions/formats” I’m referring to the HFR DCPs of BLLHW, in the post above.

[Resettito]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Despite both filmmakers having shot at 120fps, Doug ^ and Ang’s work demonstrates there is a fundamental philosophical difference between the Doug Trumbull camp (http://douglastrumbull.com/)
and thee Ang Lee camp with regards to the aesthetics of the final projected imagery at the theater. Starting from 120fps acquisition, Doug works to remove blurring /strobing and yet at the same time, purposely strives, the best his technology allows, to preserve the ‘filmic’ look in order to appease movie goers who’ve become conditioned for decades as to what they’re comfortable with and associate with the *movie experience*.

Whereas, unlike Doug, striving to preserve the traditional ‘filmic look’ throughout the entire motion picture with regards to the native format version of Billy Lynn’s Long Halftime Walk for the sake of the ‘filmic look’ itself is not of prime importance with BLLHW, on the contrary, Ang has “3 gears” with regards to clarity and detail. I guess as an audio analogy to "gearing" - - it’s like with explosions/gunshots in movies generally being louder than dialog in order to help immerse the audience in the story.

It should be noted that Doug Trumbull has said here: http://www.scpr.org/programs/airtalk...r-second-coul/

that he saw Billy Lynn at the NYFF and thought they projected it much too bright and without any shutter closures in the DCP, which for him is essential to it still maintaining a texture, otherwise it'll just look like television to some.

So he says he's been working ever since with Ang, Sony & Christie to make sure further projections go much better. I'm still unsure that even doing that, watching 120 fps isn't going to be seen as anything but weird by many, it's just too alien for now and will take time.

I remember HFR with The Hobbit, which is very different of course, but I felt much more comfortable by the second movie (Jackson having made adjustements but still).

Lee is still going to shoot Thrilla In Manila (his Ali vs Frazier project) next that way, he admits he's still learning as it's a whole new language, but he wants to push it more and see what is there.


@Penton-Man: wow wow what is this insanity with the HFR DCPs? Are you strictly speaking about the 4K 120 fps HDR which will indeed only be in two or three theaters (NY & LA) in the US? Because Lee HAS shown three days ago the 2K 3D 120 fps Dolby Vision version at a screening in LA, and there is a 2D 2K 120 fps regular version, along with 2K 3D 60 fps and 2D 2K 24 fps, 3D 2K 24 fps that most theaters in the world are supposedly able to show.

Okay, just read the whole thread on Film-Tech, this is scary. It seems Sony is not trusting exhibitors, but when you see those photos of failed technical tests on the movie, they could be risking many theaters showing the movie in an inaccurate way, remember The Hateful Eight's 70 mm rollout? That was messy. HOWEVER, the 2K 120 fps 3D/2D Dolby Vision release is confirmed, so there's that, let's just see for the rest, I wonder if that's why most of the world gets the movie late January, February, to allow time to make sure the HFR rollout goes well?

[Geoff D]

Seems like a bit of a cluster**** in any case. Not to sound mercenary but I hope this makes Ang push for a 60p version on UHD.

[Resettito]

Yeah same thing. I just wonder what this means for the international release, it's funny because two weeks ago or something, we had this post from ISDCF confirming the multiple releases, and then now, this. Now, let's imagine that as some have speculated over at Film-tech, that Sony sends out the DCPs or the technical tests, gets feedback, realizes that either those aren't going well or that (surprise surprise) many theaters have less than competent staff, and that there's massive chance of those theaters projecting the movie completely wrong (let's not forget that Doug Trumbull called the NYFF screening out for being too bright and not having shutter closures like I said).

Then, I can understand why Sony would be nervous, this could bring a lot of bad publicity for the movie, whereas with just a limited release for 4K 120 fps 3D in a handful of theaters and then in Dolby Theaters for 2K 120 fps 3D/2D Dolby Vision, they can control the outcome a lot more.

[Geoff D]

Agreed, better to roll out the full-fat (or even half-fat ) versions in a properly controlled "premium" environment and take it from there. Even if people don't like it (as per the Hobbit in HFR) then at least the studio gave it a chance of having the best possible presentation, but if it ends up like some of those screens seen in the Film-Tech thread (pink screen!) then that could be a PR disaster.

And, given all this, it makes me wonder what Cameron's going to do with the Avatar sequels. I know a LOT of people seem to think he's going for 60fps but he said to Empire magazine a year or two back that it made more sense for him to 'plug in' to the existing 48fps HFR system precisely because it's more mature...and this Billy Lynn snafu has proved him 100% right.

Sure, if ANYONE has the clout to make sure cinemas get their shit together re: 60fps then it's ol' Jimbo, but given how interminably long this sequel process is taking he might want one less battle to fight when it comes to exhibiting the movie(s).

[Resettito]

Actually, Cameron said this two days ago: http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/beh...gineers-942305

So he's still planning to go HFR, but he seems to want to avoid, from what he's said before, HFR for traditional dialogue scenes, so we'll see.


Agreed on the other point, at least, it'll get a release worldwide in HFR in a limited number of theaters, making it more special in a way (unless, Sony changes its mind, or things have been blown out of proportion), something akin to the Hateful Eight's roadshow run.

The pink screen seen on Film Tech is precisely the kind of crap you do not want with this, especially after all those damning articles following the NY premiere. And yeah, only James can push it, but it's because it's Avatar.

Billy Lynn is a 48 million dollar film, maybe they just have too many versions and too much limited control to make sure they can do the rollout the way they want to do it. It's also kind of complicated to make the general audience understand all this technical stuff:

"So yeah there are seven versions of the movie, they're all different, you might see HFR without realizing (for The Hobbit here in France, it was barely advertised, and the HFR wasn't even explained !)"

But even if Cameron, Lee (with this and Thrilla In Manila) push for it, it doesn't change the fact that there are too many variables at play, especially with so many different DCPs, you are at the mercy of the exhibitors, The Hateful Eight's 70mm run turned ugly, I don't know if it can be judged as successful overall, but it definitely proved some of the haters saying film projection was a thing of the past right, I saw it in an almost flawless environment, but many did not.

Too much incompetence in movie theaters, it's like when I see a 2D movie projected on a silver screen, resulting in ghosting, pitiful blacks, a lack of brightness & a weak contrast ratio.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by Resettito

Actually, Cameron said this two days ago: http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/beh...gineers-942305

So he's still planning to go HFR, but he seems to want to avoid, from what he's said before, HFR for traditional dialogue scenes, so we'll see.

Right, but he said nothing new there about what HFR frame rate he is/isn't going to be using, unless I'm reading it wrong. I don't get where you think I'm saying that he's not going to use HFR at all, I was wondering out loud whether ultimately he's going to stick with the existing 48fps exhibition system on the back of all these problems with Billy Lynn's wider >24fps rollout. Cameron saying he'll "push it" is one thing but the cinemas being equipped for it all is quite another. Still, by the time Avatar 2 actually comes out we'll have films beamed directly into our eyeballs by laser or something.

[edit] And folks were made aware of Cameron wanting to use a variable system almost two years ago, but nobody seemed to believe poor old Geoff at the time: https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...5#post10154565

[Resettito]

It's just because you were saying "It makes me wonder what Cameron is going to do", so since this is two days old, it just shows that he's still set on it. But I think he's going to stick with 60 fps, he knows it well enough and seeing the Billy Lynn reception so far, he might not want to rock the boat too much.

Wait and see, I still think that unless you sit people down and show them HFR regularly, the perception is never going to change, you do get used to it in my experience, but how do you convince people who hated it the first time to give it another shot? That's a hard sell. And I'm just not sure about varying framerates, ie not what Ang is doing in Billy Lynn specifically, but more like having traditional dialogue scenes in 24 fps, and then HFR for action, it's just going to be even more jarring, I don't know.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by Resettito

It's just because you were saying "It makes me wonder what Cameron is going to do", so since this is two days old, it just shows that he's still set on it. But I think he's going to stick with 60 fps, he knows it well enough and seeing the Billy Lynn reception so far, he might not want to rock the boat too much.

I said "I wonder what Cameron is going to do" in relation to the HFR rate he'll specifically use, that's what is contained in the words that directly followed on from that sentence...or so I thought. Eh, sometimes you just don't 'vibe' with certain posters and I'm definitely feeling that right now with yourself sir, you're getting the wrong end of my stick more often that not. Mabe i jest dontt rite to gud?

Wait and see, I still think that unless you sit people down and show them HFR regularly, the perception is never going to change, you do get used to it in my experience, but how do you convince people who hated it the first time to give it another shot? That's a hard sell. And I'm just not sure about varying framerates, ie not what Ang is doing, but more like having traditional dialogue scenes in 24 fps, and then HFR for action, it's just going to be even more jarring, I don't know.

I dunno, I think Cameron's got a good handle on the whole thing. It'll still look different when he segues into a higher fps but the great thing about the variable side of it is that he could use anything he wanted up to the limit of the 'container' he'll be shooting in, natch. So he might just add a few more frames to this panning shot, then really ramp it up for a very fast-paced scene and so on.

[edit] Using HFR but not destroying the "illusion" of cinema with it - which, rightly or wrongly, is still valued by a lot of people - is pretty much an art in itself, but Cameron has always proved remarkably adept at taking cinema's myriad technical breakthroughs and still managing to make them serve his stories, rather than the other way around. If he can't make it work, nobody can.

[Resettito]

Puzzled by the first part of your post, but let's skip that.

I'm unsure about what Trumbull has said about this, that you can have 120 fps, and still maintain the illusion as you say. I've seen a comment on Film tech saying that 70mm at 60 fps as done by Trumbull looked darn good whereas the same thing digitally looks like crap. Then again, it's something so few people have seen with their own eyes that it becomes complicated to really talk about what it's like.

It's going to be interesting to see Lee building on this with Thrilla In Manila, see what works, what doesn't (even though who's to say that something looks wrong in 120 fps, there's no standard or reference), and see where it goes after that.

[PeterTHX]

Originally Posted by Resettito

Then, I can understand why Sony would be nervous, this could bring a lot of bad publicity for the movie, whereas with just a limited release for 4K 120 fps 3D in a handful of theaters and then in Dolby Theaters for 2K 120 fps 3D/2D Dolby Vision, they can control the outcome a lot more.

Why would they downgrade it to 2K for Dolby Cinema since the projectors are 4K?

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Resettito

It should be noted that Doug Trumbull has said here: http://www.scpr.org/programs/airtalk...r-second-coul/

that he saw Billy Lynn at the NYFF and thought they projected it much too bright....

Thanks. I’ll give a listen later when I have more time. But I’ll tell you that, at least to my ears, Doug described the overriding situation differently at the SMPTE Technical Conference & Exhibition last week in which he seemed more concerned with the lack of ‘the filmic look’ in some sequences of BLLHW as opposed to a problem with brightness. In fact he never mentioned ‘brightness’.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Resettito

HOWEVER, the 2K 120 fps 3D/2D Dolby Vision release is confirmed, so there's that...

The non-Dolby Cinema projectionists over at film tech may have been but, I was really never concerned about Dolby Cinemas getting the HFR versions which is why from the beginning in my postings I used the term “typical commercial venue” in my post on the last page with the YouTube of Kaz. A Dolby Cinema is not your typical commercial venue unless one is lucky enough to live or work close to one.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Resettito

Yeah same thing. I just wonder what this means for the international release, it's funny because two weeks ago or something, we had this post from ISDCF confirming the multiple releases, and then now, this....

Well, to be more precise, despite the date of that posting, the essence of that information presented at ISDCF is from over 5 weeks ago.

As to “this” , there is a lot of blame/accountability to go around. Even if the projectionists these days are unskilled compared to years past, one has to factor that into the preparation for the rollout (example: you go into many eye doctors’ offices and employees with no greater than a high school education take your freaking intraocular eye pressure, which is a critical indicator of serious eye pathology. How…are they successful? Because they are trained with the instrumentation). What is frustrating about this issue is the lack of foresight (and I fear, motivation) for better early on dialog, collaboration and education between all parties involved.

Read the posts over at film tech by the guy from the environs of the Severn River as to the testing and vetting for BLLHW.

In contrast to BLLHW, the Hobbit rollout had a widespread release and was handled much more conscientiously, For example, early on, the Warner Bros. team conducted early tests through PlugFests (dedicated to HFR 3D) at the ISDCF, where any projector/server manufacturer can install equipment in the theater projection booth and run through the test to see if it responds correctly to the stimulus.

DCP test packages were sent out to theater operators. Glitches arose, most of which were resolved at the 2nd PlugFest. The studio got projector manufacturers actively involved, e.g. for one technical issue all manufacturers ended up providing instructions on how best to flip between traditional frame rate and HFR content.

Even within less than 10 days prior to the premiere the studio was dedicated to resolving isolated issues at local commercial theaters, e.g. informing theater operators as to the correct setting or configuration and referring them to the manufacturer for expedited guidance, replacing bad boards, etc.