Still not convinced

[Rocklandsboy]

Okay so I'm staring at my Amazon order page, poised to drop The Martian and Sicario into my basket. I put the BD editions in, removed them, put the UHD editions in (it's good to future proof right?), removed them, put the BD editions back in...

I'm just not sold on the concept/theory of 4K and, especially, of HDR...

It's a frequently discussed fact that most movies are native 2K or similar. Upscaling aaaaall of those movies doesn't feel right to me. Plus I have a lot of TV DVD titles and I don't much like the idea of them looking like crap (despite many questions in many threads nobody is keen to keen to answer what DVD looks like on a 4K display)

Where to start with HDR? Once you recover from threads that suggest no two films are the same and constant tinkering is required, you have to wonder how it changes the motion picture image. I've seen some comparison shots and the HDR images, while undeniably pretty, don't look like motion picture images. The format is still in its "wow" phase I guess, but when did it start to be okay to "treat" the image differently for home viewing?

Comments in the Samsung owners thread about the playing performing all sorts of automatic picture adjustments fills me with dread. AND I'm not a bit fan of LCD or LED screens (I hate clouding more than I hate banding) and OLED screens are just too darned expensive!

And then they announced a DE of The Martian. So buying the UHD now wouldn't be future-proofing at all! All in all a bit of a mess when, truly, regular old BD looks absolutely superb on my 42 inch Panasonic plasma!

BD had obvious advantages over DVD. The colour improvement was magnificent. The image stability striking. Hell, in the UK and Europe (PAL territories) it was the first time that movies were presented at the right speed! But this upgrade still feels loaded with fakery and gimmickery.

What a dilemma...

[Coenskubrick]

I don't see any reason dvd would look any worse on a 4k display than 1080p. It would look equally poor.

[kidglov3s]

Originally Posted by Coenskubrick

I don't see any reason dvd would look any worse on a 4k display than 1080p. It would look equally poor.

bahaha

[Tompa]

Originally Posted by Coenskubrick

I don't see any reason dvd would look any worse on a 4k display than 1080p. It would look equally poor.

I have a reason: common sense.

[Coenskubrick]

Originally Posted by kidglov3s

bahaha

Not sure if you're laughing at or with me but I don't understand where people get the idea that upscaling to a much higher resolution would degrade the image more than upscaling to a somewhat higher resolution, especially since upscaling makes the image a little better in most every case.

[JJ]

You're not convinced, watching BD on a 42" plasma, that a 4K HDR will not look better?

Brace yourself. If you're ever in Miami, I'll give you a peek at how it looks. Right now, all we have are 2K upscales. Wait until the 4K ones such as Sicario (HDR done with cinematographer's approval) and Spiderman2, etc, etc. Or even The Martian which used original material at a res higher than 2.

Then you'll be convinced.

Sidenote - I went to LED/LCD when my Panny 65ZT60 plasma died. You know that was the best plasma made, save a few Kuro monitors. I'm not going back.

[Rocklandsboy]

Originally Posted by JJ

You're not convinced, watching BD on a 42" plasma, that a 4K HDR will not look better?

On a screen of equal size? No. And does HDR truly make the image look better (by "better" I mean closer to the director's intent).

Originally Posted by JJ

Sidenote - I went to LED/LCD when my Panny 65ZT60 plasma died. You know that was the best plasma made, save a few Kuro monitors. I'm not going back.

Are there LED screens out there that don't have clouding? I've seen two - both Panasonics - and both had clouded corners. Very distracting.

[kidglov3s]

Originally Posted by Coenskubrick

Not sure if you're laughing at or with me but I don't understand where people get the idea that upscaling to a much higher resolution would degrade the image more than upscaling to a somewhat higher resolution, especially since upscaling makes the image a little better in most every case.

In most cases DVD looks considerably worse than Blu-ray on a 1080p display, I see no reason why a UHD/4K display would change this.

(Oh, I misread your post, thought you said DVD and Blu-ray would look equally poor in 4K, I will retract that bahaha)

[JJ]

Originally Posted by Rocklandsboy

On a screen of equal size? No. And does HDR truly make the image look better (by "better" I mean closer to the director's intent).



Are there LED screens out there that don't have clouding? I've seen two - both Panasonics - and both had clouded corners. Very distracting.

Edgelit LED LCDs will always have these problems. Fortunately, mine has minimal only on the top left corner. I defeated them using bias lighting. Problem gone .

If you have the approval of the filmmakers - as in Sicario and The Martians case - I don't see why not. And yes, it does produce a better quality image.

[Adam_ME]

Originally Posted by Rocklandsboy

Okay so I'm staring at my Amazon order page, poised to drop The Martian and Sicario into my basket. I put the BD editions in, removed them, put the UHD editions in (it's good to future proof right?), removed them, put the BD editions back in...

I'm just not sold on the concept/theory of 4K and, especially, of HDR...

My advice would be to wait and go check it out at a store like Best Buy once they have these players hooked up and on display. Even though I didn't personally think there was a huge leap in picture quality from the Blu-ray to UHD on titles like The Martian and Kingsman, they still looked noticeably better on the new format. And the HDR gave the colors a huge boost. And I did think Exodus and Scorch Trials showed a significant improvement.

Keep in mind these aren't even true 4K titles. Once we get those, I'll bet the jump in quality will be big. But like I said, see for yourself and then decide.

[Frank@Chicago]

Let's not gloss over the cost involved here...

LG just came out with a 65" 4K 3D set that's OLED/HDR and it costs eight grand (!).

I bought an LG 65" 4K 3D set last year that's LCD/SDR for two grand, before all this started.

Bigger is better and it does BD & 3D better than I ever imagined, not to mention gaming.

For the same money, I would've had to get a much smaller OLED and I thought OLED colors looked muddy.

On the other hand, with LCD you can see some uneven blacks on blank inputs and blank credit sequences.

It's all about enjoying your media and not going broke doing it, I bought a TV to enhance my existing BDs not to make them obsolete.

[Vugam]

Originally Posted by JJ

Wait until the 4K ones such as Sicario (HDR done with cinematographer's approval) and Spiderman2, etc, etc.

I understand the point of view floating around, but it's not like there will be movies only from the digital era. I would buy the stuff to play UHD just to see Alien and Blade Runner. Lowry scanned films and restored them in 4K, same with Warner Bros on a few titles. Apocalypse Now was remastered in 4K too.

Hoping UHD lives long enough for these old titles..

[jaaguir]

There really isn't much to think about. Sooner or later you're going to have to buy a new tv, and only 4k tv-s will be on sale by then. Also, eventually it'll be reasonably cheap to get an UHD player.

Unless you only go for streaming, the format is coming your way whether you want it or not.

Also, personally I don't care much about director's intent. Improved contrast and colors are always welcome by me.

[richieb1971]

For enthusiasts improvements are always welcome. But for the average Joe they just see these improvements as a status symbol. In both cases you can watch the movie and enjoy it. You don't need a Rolls Royce to enjoy driving.

Most people on these forums that dissect every little bit of information on a disc are doing it "not" because they enjoy the movies, they are doing it because they have too much time on their hands and this hobby just happens to be moving in the 4k direction. Its something new.

I'm a packaging collector, so I will not buy any 4k material until the packaging matches that of blu ray at the very least. In 3 years time the Martian on UHD will be $3 in the bargain bin and I can just change the disk and put it in my steelbook.

One thing is for sure, if you don't adopt 4k straight away your life won't be affected. Its not the cure for cancer, its a way to watch movies.

[Rocklandsboy]

Originally Posted by richieb1971

Most people on these forums that dissect every little bit of information on a disc are doing it "not" because they enjoy the movies, they are doing it because they have too much time on their hands and this hobby just happens to be moving in the 4k direction. Its something new

Excellent points. I know a fair number of people who get more joy over discussing the potential technical specs of the NEXT version of Raiders Of The Lost Ark, for instance, than actually watching and enjoying the current one. but hey, I've quadruple dipped on hundreds of soundtrack albums over the years. We all have our quirks!

Personally I don't like how TV technology is forcing my habits forward, just because the TV industry needs a boost after the abysmal failure of 3D. Every new step in TV resolution renders a media format unwatchable, along with hundreds of exclusive titles. HD made VHS unwatchable. UHD will make DVD unwatchable. Cheers.

I'm not encouraged by the above admissions that LCD and LED TV technologies are still flawed. Plasma was flawed too: banding is a problem - but at least it's only present during certain scenes. Terrific that video performance improves but there isn't a perfect monitor out there on which to watch it.

I hope OLED proves to be better.

And I'm still not convinced by HDR - especially when arguments in its favour consist of statements such as "I don't care much about director's intent".

[ouchmyfacehurts]

Originally Posted by JJ

You're not convinced, watching BD on a 42" plasma, that a 4K HDR will not look better?

Brace yourself. If you're ever in Miami, I'll give you a peek at how it looks. Right now, all we have are 2K upscales. Wait until the 4K ones such as Sicario (HDR done with cinematographer's approval) and Spiderman2, etc, etc. Or even The Martian which used original material at a res higher than 2.

Then you'll be convinced.

Sidenote - I went to LED/LCD when my Panny 65ZT60 plasma died. You know that was the best plasma made, save a few Kuro monitors. I'm not going back.

Not an invalid argument. However, to counter this: all of recorded history was in a resolution lower than this up until The Amazing Spiderman 2.

That said, the amount of pre-existing content that literally could not possibly be upgraded so outweighs what is out there (about 49,000 to 5).

The extreme dip in quality in most mainstream movies as of late (Spectre, Avengers 2, Star Wars 7, anything that looks like a video game rather than a film, etc), also leaves much to be desired.

I think 4K will go the way of the beta max and the laser disc.

[reanimator]

Originally Posted by Rocklandsboy

And I'm still not convinced by HDR - especially when arguments in its favour consist of statements such as "I don't care much about director's intent".

How much HDR have you actually watched on a proper HDR capable display? I think there's an impression, by those who have yet to see it with their own eyes, that HDR simply boosts color and lighting up to garish proportions. This is simply not the case, at least not in any of the HDR viewings I've seen. I've yet to meet anyone who has watched MAD DOGS in HDR and thought it looked anything less than spectacular.

While this is definitely a new tool for digital filmmakers, quite a few recent releases have already had theatrical HDR presentations -- and this trend will only accelerate. In other words, HDR is increasingly part of "directors intent."

To be fair, I also have been skeptical of applying these techniques to older films. But after viewing HDR graded clips of APOCALYPSE NOW I can tell you the latitude looked far closer to a Technicolor print than any rec709 bluray does.

[Frank@Chicago]

Isn't it semi-alarming that they haven't even worked out HDR downconversion for SDR sets?

When they working that out, I hope it's retroactive for early adopters.

[Mr. Joshua]

All hail LG OLED 4K and HDR!

[JJ]

Originally Posted by Mr. Joshua

All hail LG OLED 4K and HDR!

Holy crap, you have the same Prism TV stand I do.

I haven't seen anybody else with one of those EVER, they're rare as hell.