"Club Penton" - Ask questions to Hollywood insider "Penton-Man"

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by HeavyHitter

Hi Micahel,

Do you feel good about this entire DNR issue as a whole moving forward? I mean facilities and studios getting this problem?

Michael's gone ..........you're stuck with me.

To answer your question -
I see a phrase get bandied about somewhat regularly now, i.e.……………..
“A transfer should be as true to the master as possible” or some variant of that concept –
https://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.p...7&postcount=99

which just goes to show that few here (if any) have actually seen an archival quality video master esp. of some catalogue Super35 feature films.
The fact is that in my experience, when there has been an opportunity to show in a screening room the 4:4:4 on a typical high-end consumer display (the size being generally irrelevant) to the filmmaker……. is that he/she is quite surprised as to how grainy the appearance of their baby is as projected. I believe that paidgeek also made a reference to this fact months ago when he used to post regularly.

And the surprise is not one of delight but of horror because what they see on current 1080p displays (esp. LCD’s) with the archival video masters running, in many cases is not what they intended audiences to see and was not the appearance of the theatrical presentation in which the grain is mitigated. The video masters often times appear not just overall more grainy but grain is more heterogeneous (sometimes almost asymmetrical in the low lights) from shot to shot and scene to scene compared to the grain as shown at the film theatrical presentation………which is what they intended the *look* to be.

So, the *expertise* often times comes in striking that balance between the theatrical presentation look (what the Director intended) and the transparency of the video master itself. Some major studios (and their contracted post houses) have done a better job out of the gate with that technical struggle than others have but, I think as time goes by it (DNR) will not be an *issue* in regards to an overall trend with any of the major content providers.

[HeavyHitter]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Michael's gone ..........you're stuck with me.

To answer your question -
I see a phrase get bandied about somewhat regularly now, i.e.……………..
“A transfer should be as true to the master as possible” or some variant of that concept –
https://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.p...7&postcount=99

which just goes to show that few here (if any) have actually seen an archival quality video master esp. of some catalogue Super35 feature films.
The fact is that in my experience, when there has been an opportunity to show in a screening room the 4:4:4 on a typical high-end consumer display (the size being generally irrelevant) to the filmmaker……. is that he/she is quite surprised as to how grainy the appearance of their baby is as projected. I believe that paidgeek also made a reference to this fact months ago when he used to post regularly.

And the surprise is not one of delight but of horror because what they see on current 1080p displays (esp. LCD’s) with the archival video masters running, in many cases is not what they intended audiences to see and was not the appearance of the theatrical presentation in which the grain is mitigated. The video masters often times appear not just overall more grainy but grain is more heterogeneous (sometimes almost asymmetrical in the low lights) from shot to shot and scene to scene compared to the grain as shown at the film theatrical presentation………which is what they intended the *look* to be.

So, the *expertise* often times comes in striking that balance between the theatrical presentation look (what the Director intended) and the transparency of the video master itself. Some major studios (and their contracted post houses) have done a better job out of the gate with that technical struggle than others have but, I think as time goes by it (DNR) will not be an *issue* in regards to an overall trend with any of the major content providers.

Thanks, Penton. Nice to have you back.

[coolmilo]

Hello Penton-man,

Is there anything that can be done to force Warner to use lossless audio with every Blu-ray release? I believe Warner is losing a lot of money in lost sales because of this practice. Does it really cost a lot more money to include lossless audio?

Thanks in advance.

[SS316SRV]

Ben,

This might be my favorite San Diego Comic Con picture

[Geoff Gibson]

By the power of Greyskull!

[scraptor]

Great post Penton-man. Very revealing. Just goes to show that the crusaders may have twisted (inadvertently, I hope) the original intent of the directors.

Did you ever read The Devil's Candy? I just finished it, and it was very revealing. Do you think Hollywood has changed drastically since the Bonfire of the Vanities was made? If anything it seems the movie business has become even more enslaved by economics. I wonder if the power of Blu will undermine smaller, non-FX-bonanza pics whose DVD fortunes will wane until a few years from now when Blu is the home theater standard.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by coolmilo

Hello Penton-man,

Is there anything that can be done to force Warner to use lossless audio with every Blu-ray release? I believe Warner is losing a lot of money in lost sales because of this practice. Does it really cost a lot more money to include lossless audio?

Thanks in advance.

Well, the marketing folks or their assistants still read the boards, despite the fact that the tech folks from the studios that have the influence and power to make decisions no longer do, or only very rarely so. So, first off I would be more publicly diplomatic and not use words in your posts like “force”. Following that, I would post your future concerns on this thread or Bill Hunt’s Insider’s thread and follow it up either with a phone call to the studio and/or a respectful snail mail.

Keep in mind that they weight their marketing decisions based upon venues/demographics they feel have the greatest potential Blu-ray purchasing power …
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q...=Google+Search

and data sources they accumulate which they feel is a representative sampling of the mainstream buying public (who never or seldom read the forums and when in a blue moon they do, they generally confine themselves to Josh’s fine News section or the Blu-ray movie reviews exclusively).

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by scraptor

Great post Penton-man. Very revealing. Just goes to show that the crusaders may have twisted (inadvertently, I hope) the original intent of the directors.

Did you ever read The Devil's Candy? I just finished it, and it was very revealing. Do you think Hollywood has changed drastically since the Bonfire of the Vanities was made? If anything it seems the movie business has become even more enslaved by economics. I wonder if the power of Blu will undermine smaller, non-FX-bonanza pics whose DVD fortunes will wane until a few years from now when Blu is the home theater standard.

Well, since I’m in a revealing mood, let me say that remember way, way back during the first week of June in which I was acting as an emissary for you all …………………..
https://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.p...postcount=3708

Shortly thereafter, the respective studio’s techie people reviewed a copy of said title, recognized the less than optimal appearance in terms of the duplication of the original theatrical experience, and decided to place a head honcho from their film preservation dept. to directly Q/A all future Blu-ray catalogue titles from the various post houses that they contract for their work. There was never any *conspiracy or intent for the particular studio involved to scrub out the grain in order to cater to the gamers, grain-haters, JoeSixPack types etc.* which was repeatedly and incessantly proclaimed all over the internut by the “crusaders” with their misguided presumptions and motivations about a studio expressed with their outright libelous statements. The 'problem' had essentialy been solved behind closed doors weeks before and would have been so even without the "crusader" experience....... all that did was piss off the people at 20th Century Fox.

In regards to the book, yes I did read the book…………years ago. Perhaps when I get some time later I can comment more extensively. Interesting tidbit is that back in the day (1990 or 1991), the New York Times’ entertainment reporter (Bernie Weinraub) who hyped the book like no tomorrow (and deservedly so) went on 5 or 6 years later to marry Amy Pascal.
If you don’t recognize the name, then I suggest you google something like “100 most powerful women in Hollywood” from last Decemeber.

[coolmilo]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Well, the marketing folks or their assistants still read the boards, despite the fact that the tech folks from the studios that have the influence and power to make decisions no longer do, or only very rarely so. So, first off I would be more publicly diplomatic and not use words in your posts like “force”. Following that, I would post your future concerns on this thread or Bill Hunt’s Insider’s thread and follow it up either with a phone call to the studio and/or a respectful snail mail.

Keep in mind that they weight their marketing decisions based upon venues/demographics they feel have the greatest potential Blu-ray purchasing power …
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q...=Google+Search

and data sources they accumulate which they feel is a representative sampling of the mainstream buying public (who never or seldom read the forums and when in a blue moon they do, they generally confine themselves to Josh’s fine News section or the Blu-ray movie reviews exclusively).

Thanks Penton,

I will be more careful in the future about the words I use. What's interesting to me is I always thought that the reason studios excluded lossless audio was because of the lack of space in the case of dual Blu-ray/HD DVD releases. And now that the format war is over I just assumed that studios would optimize for Blu-ray including lossless audio with every release. It seems that all of the big studios are optimizing for Blu-ray now including lossless audio with exception of Warner.

Bill Hunt has been doing an excellent job working this issue. The online community is very dissatisfied with the news about Speed Racer and I was just hoping there was something more that could be done about this issue.

I'll drop it now.

[Penton-Man]

^
No prob.
Gotta run !

[Esox50]

Penton-Man,

The trailer for Quantam of Solace looked grainy to me, but not grainy enough. I think there's been some tinkering and deliberate manipulation in they way they are advertising this movie.

Any way we can get paidgeek to remove all grain from the future Blu-Ray so this will appeal to the gamer crowd and be a big seller? I'm a little concerned if QoS doesn't sell well on Blu-Ray next year that Blu-Ray will stall, and Toshiba's super upconversion or downloads will take over.

Also, how are BD50 yields?

-Esox

[Alan Gordon]

Originally Posted by Esox50

Also, how are BD50 yields?

You think you're funny, but look what you started:

BDA- Calling you out



~Alan

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Esox50

Penton-Man,

The trailer for Quantam of Solace looked grainy to me, but not grainy enough. I think there's been some tinkering and deliberate manipulation in they way they are advertising this movie.

Any way we can get paidgeek to remove all grain from the future Blu-Ray so this will appeal to the gamer crowd and be a big seller?..........

lol,
Well, have the BDSI’s (https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...=1#post1061313) ‘evaluated’ Starship Troopers yet for possible DNR ?, or are they waiting for somebody else with more ‘experience’ to make a comment…….. because they’re too afraid to commit themselves ?

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by coolmilo

Thanks Penton,

I will be more careful in the future about the words I use. What's interesting to me is I always thought that the reason studios excluded lossless audio was because of the lack of space in the case of dual Blu-ray/HD DVD releases. And now that the format war is over I just assumed that studios would optimize for Blu-ray including lossless audio with every release. It seems that all of the big studios are optimizing for Blu-ray now including lossless audio with exception of Warner.

Bill Hunt has been doing an excellent job working this issue. The online community is very dissatisfied with the news about Speed Racer and I was just hoping there was something more that could be done about this issue.

I'll drop it now.

Me thinks that bird was already done and cooked with little ability to change the taste, other than beginning all over again with a new recipe. My only hope is that the same is not true with the title at the bottom of this post ………

https://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.p...postcount=4639
because the same outside contracted facility that did much of the work on our dead American general also did much of the work on the Austrian singing family…….way back when.
Could cause further delay until we see it on Blu-ray.
I should call and give them a heads-up to the HD video master.

[Robert Harris]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Shortly thereafter, the respective studio’s techie people reviewed a copy of said title, recognized the less than optimal appearance in terms of the duplication of the original theatrical experience, and decided to place a head honcho from their film preservation dept. to directly Q/A all future Blu-ray catalogue titles from the various post houses that they contract for their work. There was never any *conspiracy or intent for the particular studio involved to scrub out the grain in order to cater to the gamers, grain-haters, JoeSixPack types etc.* which was repeatedly and incessantly proclaimed all over the internut by the “crusaders” with their misguided presumptions and motivations about a studio expressed with their outright libelous statements. The 'problem' had essentialy been solved behind closed doors weeks before and would have been so even without the "crusader" experience....... all that did was piss off the people at 20th Century Fox.

Penton,

If the studio was aware of the problem, had already placed their "honcho" at the ready and solved the problem, why was their marketing rep not in the loop when queried about the problem, and why did said rep deny any problem?

On a purely technical level, someone at the studio had to select a vendor based upon a perception of the work, assign the job to a vendor, instruct that vendor to de-grain, and then approve the job. None of this occurs in a vapor.

The easiest way to handle something like this if one is aware of it, is to acknowledge the problem, announce a future exchange policy and turn lemons into lemonade.

The problem is exacerbated by the fact that it continues unacknowledged.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Alan Gordon

You think you're funny, but look what you started:

BDA- Calling you out



~Alan

Thank God I don’t work for the BDA.
I already have enough well-meaning companies and organizations on my plate to defend/support.

Along that line, this is something that people should know about if they are interested in supporting this forum………..
https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?t=39424

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Robert Harris

Penton,
If the studio was aware of the problem, had already placed their "honcho" at the ready and solved the problem, why was their marketing rep not in the loop when queried about the problem, and why did said rep deny any problem?

First of all, I don’t know if it is accurate to call a couple of anomalous situations a problem. I did above out of expediency because I was trying to type as fast as I could before attending a meeting and I also purposed used these jobbers …..’ ‘ to intentionally surround the word.

To answer your question -
For the same reason why you were not in the loop until way later in the ball game…………..

1. Need to know basis.
2. The home media tech guys were hashing it out with the film preservation guys and deciding who/how should be assigned the extra duty. It was considered low priority to immediately communicate the relatively recently introduced procedural oversight with the marketing folk that generally deal with other matters….. especially since most marketing people in general don’t even know what the hell DNR is to begin with.

The marketing guy was put in an awkward position as he was publicly blindsided and despite rapid scrambling on the cell phone, unknown to him, I really doubt that he spoke with people that had first-hand knowledge of the title in question, so his subsequent statements were not intentionally deceiving.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Robert Harris

On a purely technical level, someone at the studio had to select a vendor based upon a perception of the work, assign the job to a vendor, instruct that vendor to de-grain, and then approve the job. None of this occurs in a vapor.............

The “vendor in question” previously had a long history of providing outstanding work and their CTO I believe has been awarded not one but two? Scientific and Technology awards by the Academy in years past for his work in the business.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Robert Harris

Penton,

The easiest way to handle something like this if one is aware of it, is to acknowledge the problem, announce a future exchange policy and turn lemons into lemonade.

The problem is exacerbated by the fact that it continues unacknowledged.

Well I wouldn’t call the first release “a lemon” and I really think that we should take further discussion of this offline because I assumed that Bill Hunt should have gotten you in the loop by now.

And in regards to re-calls in general, you know how now in months past, most forum members refer to (in their postings) and think of TFE ?

Not, as a good-will gesture by a single individual in a multi-million dollar organization that busted his arse to make it happen but, more like a scarlet letter that will never be forgiven.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Thank God I don’t work for the BDA.
I already have enough well-meaning companies and organizations on my plate to defend/support.

Along that line, this is something that people should know about if they are interested in supporting this forum………..
https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?t=39424

I'm adding an addendum to the end of the first sentence in the above quote...
and 20th Century Fox.