"Club Penton" - Ask questions to Hollywood insider "Penton-Man"

[pellucidity]

Originally Posted by HeavyHitter

Will standalones still have issues playing certain discs though in two years and still require firmware updates for such problems? This is my biggest concern for standalones. It seems the PS3 is far superior in this regard.

I remember when major DVD titles wouldn't play properly on certain players. Austin Powers, if I recall the enthusiast mags' reports correctly, had transient bitrate peaks above the limit, and some players couldn't handle it or were actually 'validating' that a disc stayed within the limits.

Unfortunately for Blu-ray, which is far more complex, QA is much more important. The PS3 is the best player not because it's the best player, but because every disc gets tested on it. The problem with BD-J is adding interactivity makes testing far more complex.

I think we're going to have to just hope that a solid set of best practices emerge that make things more predictable. A few well-tested authoring tools that cover 90% of what titles need and a relatively small set of SoC solutions for players would make things easier for testers.

[ps3andlovinit]

Originally Posted by Jeff Kleist

This is not directed at anyone in particular, but

In my frank opinion, all of this "get a PS3", "get a PS3" is not constructive for Blu-ray in general.

It is if it forces the mfgs to make 2.0 profile the baseline. Once that happens I agree. But in good conscience I can't recommend lower profiles. For 2.0 level players I agree.

Originally Posted by Jeff Kleist

PS3 is a money loser for Sony if you don't buy games, and no matter how good of a Blu-ray player you may find it, people need to face up that not everyone wants a game system as the hub of their entertainment center (or an HTPC, or anything but a standalone), in fact the vast majority don't.

I've seen no research on this either way...but certainly Playstation division wants to create that market even if what you say is currently true. Microsoft and Apple as well.

Originally Posted by Jeff Kleist

Many new standalones now feature equivalent performance to the PS3 and a few slightly superior video quality for around the same money, and very shortly it's going to be well down below it.

They will need to be.

Originally Posted by Jeff Kleist

No one is arguing the value in the PS3, just that it's simply not what the vast majority of the public is going to want. I personally don't want to play Blu-rays or DVDs on my game systems, just like I don't want to play CDs on a DVD player. I want to enjoy lossless audio on my nice receiver and not drop $500 (to get the model I'd want to upgrade to) on a new one.

Again see research/Playstation comment above...and I would say your needs are not aligned with JP6 and neither are mine .. at the moment.

Originally Posted by Jeff Kleist

To achieve commodity pricing, the CEs have to be on board and making money, enough money that they put the money and resources behind it, and achieve the volume required to drop prices, which everyone wants. Ideally everyone wants to get to that $149-199 butter zone where there's a good margin and a lot of people willing to buy.

+1

Originally Posted by Jeff Kleist

While PS3 owners are the largest single demographic of people buying Blu-rays right now, they aren't going to be 2 years from now.

I would hope not as well...then it is a problem.

Originally Posted by Jeff Kleist

Mostimportantly it does not solve people's immediate problem of "this disc doesn't work on the deck I paid $300 for". Chances are that if people had wanted a PS3, they would have bought one

Just think to yourself how long it's been since you've heard of a DVD not playing on a certain model of player. The same will be true for Blu-ray in the near future.

Let's move forward together, to each their own, and when someone stumbles, we pick them up and dust them off together instead of telling them that if they had velcro shoes they wouldn't trip over untied laces

+1

[Jeff Kleist]

I've seen no research on this either way...but certainly Playstation division wants to create that market even if what you say is currently true. Microsoft and Apple as well.

Everything I've seen from the CEs is that they want to move to expandable flat panels. Think about it like a laptop with removeable drives. Your flat panel can have hard drives slotted in or blu-ray drives or whatever. The Cell processor is specifically designed for this kind of device if you think about it. You're watching a blu-ray while it's DVRing Lost and you've got an IM window running and so on. Sharp just showed a TV with Blu-ray built in. These TVs might be commonplace in 5 years, but that's long after Blu-ray will be a commodity.

[ps3andlovinit]

Originally Posted by Jeff Kleist

Everything I've seen from the CEs is that they want to move to expandable flat panels. Think about it like a laptop with removeable drives. Your flat panel can have hard drives slotted in or blu-ray drives or whatever. The Cell processor is specifically designed for this kind of device if you think about it. You're watching a blu-ray while it's DVRing Lost and you've got an IM window running and so on. Sharp just showed a TV with Blu-ray built in. These TVs might be commonplace in 5 years, but that's long after Blu-ray will be a commodity.

So we agree on convergence I think. It's all the same direction in different packages...and of course stand-alones will just be another option like they are now.

[Jeff Kleist]

Convergence yes, but not the timetable it'll happen in. I also think reliability needs to be proven as well. No one wants if their TV goes there goes their computer and everything else

[Alan Gordon]

Originally Posted by Jeff Kleist

This is not directed at anyone in particular, but

In my frank opinion, all of this "get a PS3", "get a PS3" is not constructive for Blu-ray in general. PS3 is a money loser for Sony if you don't buy games, and no matter how good of a Blu-ray player you may find it, people need to face up that not everyone wants a game system as the hub of their entertainment center (or an HTPC, or anything but a standalone), in fact the vast majority don't. Many new standalones now feature equivalent performance to the PS3 and a few slightly superior video quality for around the same money, and very shortly it's going to be well down below it.

No one is arguing the value in the PS3, just that it's simply not what the vast majority of the public is going to want. I personally don't want to play Blu-rays or DVDs on my game systems, just like I don't want to play CDs on a DVD player. I want to enjoy lossless audio on my nice receiver and not drop $500 (to get the model I'd want to upgrade to) on a new one.

To achieve commodity pricing, the CEs have to be on board and making money, enough money that they put the money and resources behind it, and achieve the volume required to drop prices, which everyone wants. Ideally everyone wants to get to that $149-199 butter zone where there's a good margin and a lot of people willing to buy.

While PS3 owners are the largest single demographic of people buying Blu-rays right now, they aren't going to be 2 years from now.


Mostimportantly it does not solve people's immediate problem of "this disc doesn't work on the deck I paid $300 for". Chances are that if people had wanted a PS3, they would have bought one

Just think to yourself how long it's been since you've heard of a DVD not playing on a certain model of player. The same will be true for Blu-ray in the near future.

Let's move forward together, to each their own, and when someone stumbles, we pick them up and dust them off together instead of telling them that if they had velcro shoes they wouldn't trip over untied laces

Very good points!

I got a PS3 last year because I didn't like the player choices/prices, and being the casual gamer that I am, I figured that should Blu-ray lose "the war", I'll still have a PS3. I've been nothing but thrilled by the PS3 as a Blu-ray player, gaming system and multimedia system, BUT come next year, the PS3 will be relegated to a gaming system and multimedia system (as well as backup) when I get either a Sony S550 or Panasonic BD55.

Originally Posted by Jeff Kleist

Definately. Also making a standard wireless module sold AT A LOW PRICE. It's about $15 to add WiFi at manufacture, so $29.99 or so should take care of margin and a bit of profit. I'm intrigued by the new WiFi SD cards for digital cameras, and I'm curious whether the technology can be adapted to suck down firmware updates to the player once they're cheaper. Piles of people don't want to run Cat5 around the living room.

I've felt this way for a while (TiVo has their own branded wireless adapter which they sell, and DirecTV supports a Linksys Wireless N adapter for their HD-DVRs), but I'd like to see the option of either a Wireless G and Wireless N adapter at that time as well for Blu-ray players.

~Alan

[Esox50]

Originally Posted by Alan Gordon

I've been nothing but thrilled by the PS3 as a Blu-ray player, gaming system and multimedia system, BUT come next year, the PS3 will be relegated to a gaming system and multimedia system (as well as backup) when I get either a Sony S550 or Panasonic BD55.

That sums me up perfectly. I just got the Panasonic BD35 last Saturday. I loved the PS3, and used it 95% for BLu-Ray from December 2006 until last Saturday.

The Panasonic bests the PS3 in terms of A/V quality, and it's only $300. It also has ethernet for updating the firmware, which was a MUST IMHO after getting used to that feature on the PS3.

[Uxi]

Difficult for me to see how any Blu-ray player can exceed the PS3. I can envision some of them matching it's ability, but the PS3 is clearly a GREAT BLu-ray player. No way do I see any Blu-ray player capable of full blown web browsing or have 320GB + of storage.

The only reason other Blu-ray players could have a niche is those unable/unwilling to get IR integration (mostly the ignorant since it's so easy these days), those that have some neurotic "need" to see a front display... or those who don't yet have an HDMI-equipped/capable AVR.

[Bobby Henderson]

Originally Posted by Jeff Kleist

How many people still use the PS2 as their primary DVD player? Seriously? How many people used it even in 2002? Outside of college dorms, very few. But for a LOT of people it WAS their first DVD player, and it was the player that got other people to buy decks.

Playstation 2 was launched in North American in October of 2000 (half a year after the initial launch in Japan), more than 3 years after the DVD format was introduced. By that time, standalone DVD players were on their 3rd full generation and dropping well under the $200 price level. Sure, a lot of PS2 consoles were sold after that date, but a lot of standalone DVD players had already been sold. PS2 was never the dominant device for playing DVDs the way Playstation 3 has been with playing Blu-ray movies.

During the first 2 years of the Blu-ray format lots of people interested in Blu-ray, including myself, have opted to go with the Playstation 3. Despite the device being packaged as a game console, many have chosen the PS3 because it was the least expensive Blu-ray player, the fastest and most well performing Blu-ray player, the most versatile and only future proof Blu-ray player on the market. That situation has only started to change this fall.

The market finally has a few Blu-ray player models that are less expensive than a 40GB PS3. We're only just now seeing BD Profile 2.0 standalone players that weigh in with a lower cost than a 40GB PS3. However, just about every standalone player on the market has longer disc load times and far longer BD Live access times than PS3. Those issues need to be remedied. Hopefully the next generation of standalone BD players coming in the Spring of 2009 will be up to the challenge.

I am absolutely certain I'll own other Blu-ray players sometime in the future. When it comes to comparing the BD players currently available in the market today and recommending one of those, I'm still choosing the PS3.

[badboi]

Originally Posted by Uxi

Difficult for me to see how any Blu-ray player can exceed the PS3. I can envision some of them matching it's ability, but the PS3 is clearly a GREAT BLu-ray player. No way do I see any Blu-ray player capable of full blown web browsing or have 320GB + of storage.

The only reason other Blu-ray players could have a niche is those unable/unwilling to get IR integration (mostly the ignorant since it's so easy these days), those that have some neurotic "need" to see a front display... or those who don't yet have an HDMI-equipped/capable AVR.

And it's arrogant comments like that from PS3 owners that don't help the cause. And FWIW, if I want to web browse, interact with other nerds in basements around the world, and save shit to a hard drive, I have a few computers for that.

[Uxi]

There's no acrimony in that statement. Setting up IR for flawless use with a PS3 is absurdly easy and cheap (anywhere from $10-20) yet still clung to as a crutch by many who just want an excuse to not get a PS3.

I don't care what you do in your basement or how you interact with other nerds.

[Penton-Man]

Bad Boys, bad boys………watcha gonna do,
watcha gonna do when they (the mods) come for you ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Try0X4EeUMQ

I allow y’all to talk about just about anything on my thread………..you can even entertain guesses about the moose population potentially decreasing in Alaska after Nov. 4 - as long as its done tactfully and respectfully but, please no inter-member bickering on this thread.

Thanks

[Penton-Man]

For some historical perspective, I find this whole discussion quite ironic since the PS3 is still being referred to as the *gold standard* or close to it for a High Definition Movie player and I remember back in the day during the format war on a certain *science* forum where all the *scientists* were chastising the PS3 before it even launched in that it would “never be a good Blu-ray player” and the elitists over there “would never consider having a gaming machine play their movies” in their super expensive home theaters while sipping on their ‘96 Chateau Lafite Rothschild.

Despite all that, even before the PS3 shipped, I went on record saying that it would be the most future-proof and overall best Blu-ray player for a long time and encouraged first time Blu-ray buyers to grab one.
I personally would buy a coffee machine if it was the fasting loading, fasting functioning and best audio/video Blu-ray player on the market at the time……..a bonus being in that it also brewed coffee but, I’m a true “videophile” .
Best audio/video purchase I ever made.

[Sith]

Originally Posted by Jeff Kleist

This is not directed at anyone in particular, but

In my frank opinion, all of this "get a PS3", "get a PS3" is not constructive for Blu-ray in general. PS3 is a money loser for Sony if you don't buy games, and no matter how good of a Blu-ray player you may find it, people need to face up that not everyone wants a game system as the hub of their entertainment center (or an HTPC, or anything but a standalone), in fact the vast majority don't. Many new standalones now feature equivalent performance to the PS3 and a few slightly superior video quality for around the same money, and very shortly it's going to be well down below it.

No one is arguing the value in the PS3, just that it's simply not what the vast majority of the public is going to want. I personally don't want to play Blu-rays or DVDs on my game systems, just like I don't want to play CDs on a DVD player. I want to enjoy lossless audio on my nice receiver and not drop $500 (to get the model I'd want to upgrade to) on a new one.

To achieve commodity pricing, the CEs have to be on board and making money, enough money that they put the money and resources behind it, and achieve the volume required to drop prices, which everyone wants. Ideally everyone wants to get to that $149-199 butter zone where there's a good margin and a lot of people willing to buy.

While PS3 owners are the largest single demographic of people buying Blu-rays right now, they aren't going to be 2 years from now.


Mostimportantly it does not solve people's immediate problem of "this disc doesn't work on the deck I paid $300 for". Chances are that if people had wanted a PS3, they would have bought one

Just think to yourself how long it's been since you've heard of a DVD not playing on a certain model of player. The same will be true for Blu-ray in the near future.

Let's move forward together, to each their own, and when someone stumbles, we pick them up and dust them off together instead of telling them that if they had velcro shoes they wouldn't trip over untied laces

All your saying is true, but right now we need to get as many people with
blu ray players as we can....I have a friend that works in IT, totally didn't
want to buy a ps3, wanted a stand alone....But couldn't ignore the specs
and the fact that the ps3 runs on the cell processor and gets the updates straight from Sony...

His bottom line was, yes a stand alone will look better in my house, but the
ps3 will always load faster, and the updates are safer and quicker...

[Penton-Man]

Anyway, due to the technological advancements like e-mail despite intercontinental distances, I would like to thank JimSD for the heads-up on the Bond movies and confirm that the standalone playing issues (at least in regards to the Sony S300 and possibly the HesV1000) have risen to expedited attention status and will be studied right away.

Have a good weekend folks and don't do anything I wouldn't do.

[Sith]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

For some historical perspective, I find this whole discussion quite ironic since the PS3 is still being referred to as the *gold standard* or close to it for a High Definition Movie player and I remember back in the day during the format war on a certain *science* forum where all the *scientists* were chastising the PS3 before it even launched in that it would “never be a good Blu-ray player” and the elitists over there “would never consider having a gaming machine play their movies” in their super expensive home theaters while sipping on their ‘96 Chateau Lafite Rothschild.

Despite all that, even before the PS3 shipped, I went on record saying that it would be the most future-proof and overall best Blu-ray player for a long time and encouraged first time Blu-ray buyers to grab one.
I personally would buy a coffee machine if it was the fasting loading, fasting functioning and best audio/video Blu-ray player on the market at the time……..a bonus being in that it also brewed coffee but, I’m a true “videophile” .
Best audio/video purchase I ever made.

Hey Penton-Man it's 3:30 friday, HOPE YOUR DRINKIN!!!!!

Some of us got off early.....

[Esox50]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

For some historical perspective, I find this whole discussion quite ironic since the PS3 is still being referred to as the *gold standard* or close to it for a High Definition Movie player and I remember back in the day during the format war on a certain *science* forum where all the *scientists* were chastising the PS3 before it even launched in that it would “never be a good Blu-ray player” and the elitists over there “would never consider having a gaming machine play their movies” in their super expensive home theaters while sipping on their ‘96 Chateau Lafite Rothschild.

Despite all that, even before the PS3 shipped, I went on record saying that it would be the most future-proof and overall best Blu-ray player for a long time and encouraged first time Blu-ray buyers to grab one.
I personally would buy a coffee machine if it was the fasting loading, fasting functioning and best audio/video Blu-ray player on the market at the time……..a bonus being in that it also brewed coffee but, I’m a true “videophile” .
Best audio/video purchase I ever made.

100% agreed. The PS3 is, all around, the best A/V purchase I ever made too.

The only reason I bought the Panny BD35 is because I'm looking for the best A/V, and I think it's hard to beat what Panny is doing. That is not to say the PS3 is a slouch in terms of A/V quality. It too is great...but I'm just talking about extracting that last 5% or so of performance off of my Blu-Ray discs.

I've only had the Panny for 6 days, but if someone were to ask me about a BD player, I would still recommend the PS3 over anything. If someone said they were looking for the absolute best A/V quality and were willing to deal with a standalone (which are less "easy" to "maintain" than the PS3 and are a bit slower), then the Panny is the ticket.

[dialog_gvf]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

For some historical perspective, I find this whole discussion quite ironic since the PS3 is still being referred to as the *gold standard* or close to it for a High Definition Movie player and I remember back in the day during the format war on a certain *science* forum where all the *scientists* were chastising the PS3 before it even launched in that it would “never be a good Blu-ray player” and the elitists over there “would never consider having a gaming machine play their movies” in their super expensive home theaters while sipping on their ‘96 Chateau Lafite Rothschild.

Despite all that, even before the PS3 shipped, I went on record saying that it would be the most future-proof and overall best Blu-ray player for a long time and encouraged first time Blu-ray buyers to grab one.

Same here. It was one of my primary messages before launch.

Another historical perspective:

A certain ex-MS Veep used to make the argument, before PS/3 launch, that since his team was having so much trouble getting HD DVD playback working well on Xbox 360, the PS/3 obviously wasn't going to handle the much higher Blu-ray specs well.

It's was one of his appeals to authority that drove me up the wall.

Gary

[mikey p]

Originally Posted by dialog_gvf

A certain ex-MS Veep used to make the argument, before PS/3 launch, that since his team was having so much trouble getting HD DVD playback working well on Xbox 360, the PS/3 obviously wasn't going to handle the much higher Blu-ray specs well.

It's was one of his appeals to authority that drove me up the wall.

Gary

One of many, no wonder MS canned him! An inspired act of God should have happened to him. I don't remember him ever saying anything positive about HD DVD, he was always bad mouthing Blu Ray, that's what pushed me over the edge.

On the subject at hand however my BD30's play the Bond disc's all OK, my S300 is kind of a crap shoot (with very slow loads), sometimes the titles play sometimes not? Last night I for the hell of it tried one on my Sony laptop that came with a BD player (WinDVD software under Vista Home Preimum) the darn thing loaded faster than the Panny's and played just fine, wonder if it's just raw HP/memory thing? I did see where Bill Hunt was reporting last night that Sony was aware and working a new firmware for the S300 which was good (for me) to hear.

[HeavyHitter]

Originally Posted by Esox50

The Panasonic bests the PS3 in terms of A/V quality, and it's only $300. It also has ethernet for updating the firmware, which was a MUST IMHO after getting used to that feature on the PS3.

I've heard several insiders tell me that the PS3 puts out a reference 1080p/24 image in every aspect. I've heard some of the standalones are being tweaked (even in default) settings to make the image appear better...but in all reality they are just altering the source of the image.