Still not convinced

[42041]

I assume Sony knows what they're talking about, but I don't really see why HDR would exacerbate grain...

And HDR is, at least in principle, not a gimmick. If you're a photographer, you probably know that trying to capture how a contrasty scene looks to the eye can be a constant source of frustration. Your eye has no problem seeing, for example, both the unlit interior of a house and the sunny day outside, but on a regular display, reproducing this requires you to do heavy-duty contrast flattening. An HDR display and signal path would let you produce an image that plays much better to your eye's logarithmic response to light.

[dankrakafoon]

Originally Posted by 42041

I assume Sony knows what they're talking about, but I don't really see why HDR would exacerbate grain...

Just a guess: Maybe it doesn't really exacerbate grain, but by augmenting contrast, it makes it more apparent than it should be? Will studios then apply DNR to counter this side-effect of re-grading films for HDR?

You're right, I shouldn't call HDR a gimmick. What I find "gimmicky" is applying it to movies that were shot with a 50 nits peak white or so in mind. What happened to accurately replicating the original theatrical experience?

[bruceames]

Originally Posted by dankrakafoon

Just a guess: Maybe it doesn't really exacerbate grain, but by augmenting contrast, it makes it more apparent than it should be? Will studios then apply DNR to counter this side-effect of re-grading films for HDR?

You're right, I shouldn't call HDR a gimmick. What I find "gimmicky" is applying it to movies that were shot with a 50 nits peak white or so in mind. What happened to accurately replicating the original theatrical experience?

I think they certainly will. Rumor has it that the Samsung player already applies DNR on its own during the output chain.

[ray0414]

Originally Posted by bruceames.

I think they certainly will. Rumor has it that the Samsung player already applies DNR on its own during the output chain.

thats been the rumor, but im leaning towards that it doesnt.


Once i turned off my tvs DNR, alot of the detail came back that i was missing. and along with that came back noise and grain (which i hate). spiderman and hitman agent 47 are especially grainy. if this player was applying DNR they wouldnt be anywhere near as bad. turning my DNR on on the tv helps out ALOT with grain, almost disappears completely but it causes motion blurring and texture loss. im hoping that future 4k players have advanced noise reducers that you can toggle and eliminate that flickering noise.

[bruceames]

Originally Posted by ray0414

thats been the rumor, but im leaning towards that it doesnt.


Once i turned off my tvs DNR, alot of the detail came back that i was missing. and along with that came back noise and grain (which i hate). spiderman and hitman agent 47 are especially grainy. if this player was applying DNR they wouldnt be anywhere near as bad. turning my DNR on on the tv helps out ALOT with grain, almost disappears completely but it causes motion blurring and texture loss. im hoping that future 4k players have advanced noise reducers that you can toggle and eliminate that flickering noise.

Hopefully you're right. The notion that a player is adding DNR on top of (any) DNR already encoded on the movie is appalling to say the least. I can't wait until the Oppo comes out.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by marine92104

You made me laugh out loud Penton-Man with your reply to that post.....

Glad to offer some comic relief.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by bruceames.

...I'm worried that with seemingly ALL the focus on HDR that this will become an HDR-only format and I don't think anybody wants that.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by 42041

I assume Sony knows what they're talking about, but I don't really see why HDR would exacerbate grain...

As clearly stated last November https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...e#post11528189

And later corroborated with experience involving different projects…..https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...e#post11956225

[Jason One]

Originally Posted by bruceames.

Fine, I agree they may not need HDR. But release them anyway. They can still benefit from the 10 bit depth, wider color gamut and of course the higher resolution. I hope they won't be afraid to release them without HDR thinking consumers are expecting eye candy or something (which they might if they get spoiled on HDR releases). I'm worried that with seemingly ALL the focus on HDR that this will become an HDR-only format and I don't think anybody wants that.

I wish you were right, but has there been a single announced title without HDR? I don't think so. It does seem exactly like it's becoming an HDR-only format.

[JoeDeM]

Originally Posted by Jason One

I wish you were right, but has there been a single announced title without HDR? I don't think so. It does seem exactly like it's becoming an HDR-only format.

it's still early in the game, the studio's are like kids with a new toy, I'm sure we will see non-HDR titles at some point.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by 42041

I assume Sony knows what they're talking about...

Remember this freebie from early 2011 with traditional Blu-rays…. https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...ls#post4453123

You or anyone else are free to try the same code with your Sony Ultra HD Blu-ray discs in order to enhance your picture quality viewing experience.

[Derb]

Dem WB titles..

Without an HDR set, most are near pointless. Latest underwhelming film watched of late was "Pan"

They at least released some good movies but slapping a 4K Ultra on the disc & charging at least twice the amount of the BDs is just wrong.

TSG, or TGS Entertainment.. I have been seeing tons of these mostly from Fox I believe.. Watched 3 minutes into "Wild" & those 3 minutes look better then the entire run of "Pan's" film length.

Rant over.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by bruceames.

Fine, I agree they may not need HDR. But release them anyway. They can still benefit from the 10 bit depth, wider color gamut and of course the higher resolution. I hope they won't be afraid to release them without HDR thinking consumers are expecting eye candy or something (which they might if they get spoiled on HDR releases). I'm worried that with seemingly ALL the focus on HDR that this will become an HDR-only format and I don't think anybody wants that.

I've said it before, I think they'll get HDR out of their system as far as catalogue stuff is concerned with the initial waves of titles this year (not that the effect is particularly extreme on most of Sony's film-based UHD titles released so far anyway) and then the non-HDR and/or older HDR catalogue titles will start to creep out.

They'll still have new movies with which they can keep the HDR flame burning bright (quite literally) but when more knowledge filters down to the UHD user base - who are already so used to seeing these ultra-clean ultra-dynamic UHD HDR presentations - that film grain and a non-eye-searing DR isn't A Bad Thing™ then I think the studios will be more confident in releasing such product.

[edit] Wind the clock back 10 years and HD itself was in the exact same position. The bespoke demo videos in store promised super-sharp super-colourful images round the clock and Blu-ray and HD DVD were initially tailored to that preconception, that everything had to be smooth and shiny and as far away from dat nasty grainy film as humanly possible. Just as it took time for people to understand that not every film will be a knockout in HD, the same will apply to UHD. "The more things change..." etc etc

[bruceames]

I'm sure you're right Geoff. Otherwise the catalogs are going to be almost nonexistent in the long run and we won't be seeing boutique or other small labels releasing catalog either (can't imagine Criterion titles with HDR). I'm looking forward to seeing some of those.

[Geoff D]

Exactly mate. In the age of the boutique label doing a roaring trade - mostly on existing transfers supplied to them from the licensor - there simply won't be the money for new HDR passes on everything.

If Criterion get into UHD Blu (miracles do happen, they've just announced they're doing UK BD releases in partnership with Sony!) then I can see them getting HDR on a newer transfer done for them by Sony or whoever, but if they really start delving into the 4K back catalogue of existing content then that stuff will be mastered in SDR by default.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Remember this freebie from early 2011 with traditional Blu-rays…. https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...ls#post4453123

You or anyone else are free to try the same code with your Sony Ultra HD Blu-ray discs in order to enhance your picture quality viewing experience.

I do miss the blonde with these new, updated test patterns offered to help home theater enthusiasts with calibrating the different color spaces of their 4K tvs.

[Kris Deering]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

I do miss the blonde with these new, updated test patterns offered to help home theater enthusiasts with calibrating the different color spaces of their 4K tvs.

Wow that link to us back a few years! Funny that the comment I made just a few posts down from that was in reference to Sony's Bad Boys 2 promo that they FINALLY made good on this year!

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

I do miss the blonde with these new, updated test patterns offered to help home theater enthusiasts with calibrating the different color spaces of their 4K tvs.

Has it got BT.2020 colour bars? Quick - someone, anyone, with the Sony UHD discs, enter 7669 on your remote!!

[freedomland]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Just as it took time for people to understand that not every film will be a knockout in HD, the same will apply to UHD. "The more things change..." etc etc

Movies with a decent transfer or better(2k or 4K restoration) looks marvelous anyway, even those films with non eye-candy pictures. Haven´t seen not one good restored film on bluray that not knocked me out! Old masters from DVD-era doesnt count!

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by freedomland

Movies with a decent transfer or better(2k or 4K restoration) looks marvelous anyway, even those films with non eye-candy pictures. Haven´t seen not one good restored film on bluray that not knocked me out! Old masters from DVD-era doesnt count!

Sure, I still think regular Blu-ray is capable of absolutely stunning film-like imagery. But my point was geared towards the wider consumer conception of these shiny new formats, not for the smaller band of learned enthusiasts on forums like this.