"Club Penton" - Ask questions to Hollywood insider "Penton-Man"

[ryoohki]

I always go to the same theater. It's audio and video is bad. Not really bad, but bad. I mean i was terribly let down by the PQ and AQ of Batman : TDK (awesome movie) and i'am going less and less to the theater because of that.

[4K2K]

Originally Posted by NutsAboutPS3

No, I wonder if this is where people get the idea from that Blu-ray is somehow limited.

It was said that 8 bit per colour channel displays and Blu-ray discs (and their colour space) were limited compared to film.

Current monitors are typically even more limited, not being able to display 256 distinct levels per colour channel.

Though I didn't think Blu-ray encodes used the full 256 distinct levels of colour per channel (more like something like 16 to 235, so about 220 levels), and yet there are Blu-ray players that try to generate 12 bit colour from the 8 bit on the disc and output that to the display. The HDMI 1.3 spec mentions Deep Colour and billions of colours etc. There are also HDTVs that say they are compatible with the HDMI 1.3 spec (which includes deep colour) and xvYCC colour.

Surely, if it was possible to put an increased colour depth video on Blu-ray, which it seems it might be (though would this be outside the Blu-ray spec?):

Originally Posted by Bobby Henderson

Movie studios can create a "deep color" Blu-ray disc whenever they feel like doing so. They just have to deal with the fact not much equipment can currently handle wide gamut video.

then it should look better on those displays that can handle it.

My question is, in reality, if the best source was given to the best consumer displays, how many colours per channel could they really reproduce in reality (eg. for the best available/soon to be available consumer Plasma/LCD/locally dimming LED backlit LCD HDTVs? and how do they compare to CRT?)

[Penton-Man]

Just dropping in here for a quick well deserved tribute to Isaac Hayes …………..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tZzBrxj-Gjo

Likewise, R.I.P. Bernie Mack, as both of you will be missed.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Rob Tomlin

Anyway, I'd like to hear about Sling Blade. I love that movie!

When I get more time, will do.
Whenever Sling Blade eventually appears on Blu-ray, one should probably expect the Blu-ray movie to be much closer to the Director’s intent than the theatrical presentation was.

Will explain later.

[Penton-Man]

Carry on.
Good back and forth discussion going on here.

[NutsAboutPS3]

Originally Posted by 4K2K

The HDMI 1.3 spec mentions Deep Colour and billions of colours etc. There are also HDTVs that say they are compatible with the HDMI 1.3 spec (which includes deep colour) and xvYCC colour.

Surely, if it was possible to put an increased colour depth video on Blu-ray, which it seems it might be (though would this be outside the Blu-ray spec?):

then it should look better on those displays that can handle it.

My question is, in reality, if the best source was given to the best consumer displays, how many colours per channel could they really reproduce in reality (eg. for the best available/soon to be available consumer Plasma/LCD/locally dimming LED backlit LCD HDTVs? and how do they compare to CRT?)

As I think you recognise, there is a difference between a TV having an input that can accept a signal, and it having a panel that can usefully utilise all the information in that signal. I'm personally totally unconvinced of the need for further colour bit-depth because I never see any colour bit-depth issues in Blu-ray discs that can't be explained by insufficient bitrate having been used.

When you use a digital SLR, it will typically capture at 12 or 14 bits per channel depending on the model, and you can then work on the image at 16 bits per channel, but the main benefit of this is increased exposure latitude, and ability to apply manipulations such as curves without introducing banding. If you take a captured image and change it to 8 bits per channel without performing manipulations that stretch out the range, it will not have banding in it. The fact that these 8 bits per channel images do not appear to suffer from a lack of bit depth leads me to believe that there is little benefit to displaying at greater bit depth (however capturing and manipulating at greater bit depth is of benefit as noted above).

[Bobby Henderson]

Originally Posted by 4K2K

Another way of converting the higher colour depth (16 bit pcc?) original to 8 bit pcc is to use dithering. This will prevent banding, but it will have the disadvantage of introducing random noise into the picture, it will also have the disadvantage of needing a higher bitrate to store because the picture content is more random.

I think you're over-simplifying the process of manipulating color imagery in deep depths and down-sampling them to standard 8-bit depths.

Many graphics people scan film negatives and other materials at high bit depths, like 16-bits per channel, in order to bring out more shadow detail and control contrast and highlights better. The work is done in those wide bit depths (and sometimes odd color modes like L*a*b) to keep from chopping the image's histogram reading all to hell if you have to edit curves, levels, etc. The damage will happen if you acquire and manipulate the image entirely in 8-bit RGB mode.

A 24-bit image with 8-bits per channel has 16.7 million variations of color/value. That's usually enough variation to hide any steps of banding that could be seen from down-sampling a 16-bit image without using destructive filters like dither.

Originally Posted by milou6

Technically, could current players read a file with deep 12 bit color, discarding/translating the additional color space? Does the BD spec cover anything beyond 8 bit color?

Yes. Blu-ray supports Deep Color. Movie studios just haven't used it up to this point, arguably over the extra demands it makes on the bit budget.

Originally Posted by 4K2K

My question is, in reality, if the best source was given to the best consumer displays, how many colours per channel could they really reproduce in reality (eg. for the best available/soon to be available consumer Plasma/LCD/locally dimming LED backlit LCD HDTVs? and how do they compare to CRT?)

It's not an easy question to answer accurately. Just about any kind of electronic video display has some sort of limitation to it.

Newer LCD-TVs like the Sony Bravia XBR4/5 or the Samsung Series 7 750 do a much better job of displaying intense color and deep blacks than previous generations of LCD-TVs. But they're still not perfect. Although they may show some benefit of being fed a Deep Color 1080p/24 video stream, they may still be missing certain values already defined in the 8-bit range. 10-bit, 12-bit or 16-bit color is just providing a more even transition.

Computer monitors are even more limited. Color intensity, black levels and actual response time for most LCD computer monitors is pretty bad compared to a dedicated HDTV. Even high priced LCD monitors designed for digital imaging have limits.

I still do a lot of my graphic design work on CRT-based monitors. They still do a better job at showing very subtle earth tones as well as very light or very dark shades of gray. Color consistency on screen versus printed output is more reliable. Even with that, the phosphors in a CRT monitor limit the ability to hit certain shades of green and purple.

With all of that stated, I think Deep Color may be overkill for current HDTV sets. Perhaps in another couple of years, as OLED-based televisions are perfected and other new display technologies arrive Deep Color may be useful.

[milou6]

Originally Posted by Bobby Henderson

Yes. Blu-ray supports Deep Color. Movie studios just haven't used it up to this point, arguably over the extra demands it makes on the bit budget.

Thanks!

[saprano]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

When I get more time, will do.
Whenever Sling Blade eventually appears on Blu-ray, one should probably expect the Blu-ray movie to be much closer to the Director’s intent than the theatrical presentation was.

Will explain later.

Thats good to hear

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Carry on.
Good back and forth discussion going on here.

Yea it is.

[saprano]

Originally Posted by Bobby Henderson

No consumer electronics equipment has the ability to show an uncompressed 4K resolution d-cinema master. No HDTV sets have 4K native resolution either. 2K d-cinema has slightly better native resolution than 1080p HDTV. 3-chip DLP projectors, such as the Christie CP2000 series, have great capabilities. I like my Sony Bravia XBR4, but I'll be the first to admit it is no match for a professional series d-cinema projector.

D-cinema installations don't show uncompressed material either, although they do run their video at much higher bit rates than what is typically used on Blu-ray.

what about sonys 4K Tv they showed at ces? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u1I1fqZfiY8

how long before we see this in homes?

and to benefit from 4K wouldn't we need very large screens?

[Penton-Man]

Quick heads-up to anyone in the Silver Spring area, (that be Marylanders, and people living in D.C. and Northern Virginia – that be you Josh!- news dude)……….

LoA is showing tomorrow and Thurs.

http://www.afi.com/silver/new/
or a more specific direct link…………..
http://www.afi.com/silver/new/nowpla...ean.aspx#lawre

And please no questions regarding updates to the appearance of this title on Blu-ray…….because I aint answering them anyway.

[ezcobar411]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Quick heads-up to anyone in the Silver Spring area, (that be Marylanders, and people living in D.C. and Northern Virginia – that be you Josh!- news dude)……….

LoA is showing tomorrow and Thurs.

http://www.afi.com/silver/new/
or a more specific direct link…………..
http://www.afi.com/silver/new/nowpla...ean.aspx#lawre

And please no questions regarding updates to the appearance of this title on Blu-ray…….because I aint answering them anyway.

Thanks for the heads up. I'll have to try to make a showing.

[Bobby Henderson]

Originally Posted by saprano

what about sonys 4K Tv they showed at ces? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u1I1fqZfiY8
how long before we see this in homes?
and to benefit from 4K wouldn't we need very large screens?

That TV is an experimental prototype -not an actual product for sale anywhere. I'm not going to expect 4K HDTV monitors for at least a few more years.

At best, we'll continue to see computer monitors get bigger and loaded with higher native resolutions. Tasks involving graphic design, image editing, video editing, mapping, architecture/engineering and science can all make practical use of ever higher resolution displays.

The problem with 4K televisions is a fundamental lack of content. Very few movies processed via digital intermediate have a 4K resolution finished product. Most end up at 2K. Until 4K replaces 2K as the DI standard and builds up at least a couple hundred or so quality titles there won't be much justification at all to make 4K televisions and a new video format to deliver 4K. Additionally, as you mentioned, viewers would need a large (and expensive) monitor to see the added benefit.

[Anthony P]

No, I wonder if this is where people get the idea from that Blu-ray is somehow limited. PCs with 32 bit colour actually only have 24 bit colour, i.e. 8 bits per channel, just the same as Blu-ray. The extra 8 bits are just for alpha (transparency). Current 32 bit display cards would gain zero benefit from a move to greater video colour depth, they simply can't render it. Current monitors are typically even more limited, not being able to display 256 distinct levels per colour channel.

admittedly it was a bad post, I guess I was too tired. My point was that 7.91MB for a pic would be 1080*1920*32/8/(2^20)

32 is the colour bitdepth used by PCs and for the screan shot, 2^20 is used because most file systems give MiB instead of MB
so I just wanted to point out that it would not be the correct numbers for a movie.

Sorry if I mislead anyone in my previous post.

[Kris Deering]

Though I didn't think Blu-ray encodes used the full 256 distinct levels of colour per channel (more like something like 16 to 235, so about 220 levels),

Blu-ray is encoded with color information through the whole range, including above and below 16 and 235. The sampling of color is what is limited hence 4:2:0.

[Deciazulado]

Well if you calibrate 16 to be black and 235 to be white you only see 220 (7.78 bits)

[wallendo]

Originally Posted by Deciazulado

Well if you calibrate 16 to be black and 235 to be white you only see 220 (7.78 bits)

Isn't that the NTSC standard? Very low values and very high values produced problems with the analog signal, so black was defined as 16 and white as 235 (The "NTSC safe" range).

[kjack]

Originally Posted by Bobby Henderson

Yes. Blu-ray supports Deep Color. Movie studios just haven't used it up to this point, arguably over the extra demands it makes on the bit budget.

Haven't seen this in the Blu-ray specs...

Some players do an 8-bit to 12-bit conversion after decoding the video...which is outside the Blu-ray specs.

[dialog_gvf]

Originally Posted by Bobby Henderson

Yes. Blu-ray supports Deep Color. Movie studios just haven't used it up to this point, arguably over the extra demands it makes on the bit budget.

Unfortunately deep colour is not in the BD spec. Neither is xvYCC.

Gary

[FourToedStatue]

Hey PM,

I apologize in advance for beating the dead horse with these questions:


1) Will Close Encounters and Blade Runner get single disc editions?

2) Will we ever see the unrated Live Free or Die Hard on blu ray?

3) Are Ghostbusters 1 and 2 still on track for October?


Thanks!