"Club Penton" - Ask questions to Hollywood insider "Penton-Man"

[Rob Tomlin]

Originally Posted by Maxpower1987

Sorry for the misunderstanding, I was actually agreeing with you!

And for the record, I'm far from a PC fanboy. I don't care what I use, as long as I can sign into my work or home VPN I'll use it...

Well, Max, when you say things like: Apple, innovate?

Please, their designs are mostly stolen from Sony, and they nabbed the iPod design from Psion!

All Steve Jobs has done is energise the Mac fanboys into an online legion that no one will bother arguing with...

it may come across as you being a PC fanboy.

I have no dog in this fight. I've never owned an Apple product of any kind (well, my wife just got her first iPod 2 months ago). I'm still weighing my options at this point, and my main issue with the Mac is lack of support for BD, but there are work arounds available.

[Rob Tomlin]

..

[Bobby Henderson]

Originally Posted by Rob Tomlin

I have agreed with 90% of what you have said on this topic, but to say that Windows PC users "aren't bound by any such pretense" is not accurate in my recent experience. Perhaps Mac owners are more vocal in their support of their choice than PC users (and perhaps it is justified?), but that doesn't mean that they don't also criticize Apple when warranted. Again, see the Apple forum.

A lot of the hatred of the Mac platform coming from Windows PC users is typically directed at the user base of Apple and not so much at the computers themselves (other than them being really expensive). The self-righteous nature of the "typical Mac user" has long been a part of the Apple image.

Sure, there are zealot PC users out there. One of my coworkers is a Linux fanboy. Every few months I get to have the same conversation explaining that there is no way we are switching over to Linux.

The discussion of hardware & software flaws is indeed more open on the PC side than the Mac side. Even with the fanboys taken into account. On the Mac side, you have to cut through a layer of denial -the whole Mac's never crash mantra. Freehand 10 was the first vector-drawing program released for OSX. It was a buggy pile of crap. Worse, the PC version didn't have so many bugs. A lot of arguing went back and forth before people agreed there was a problem with FH10 on OSX.

The possibilities for new technology is greater on the PC side because it isn't having to go through the gate of one single company. With Apple, you're stuck with a far more limited line of Apple-branded products and stuck with the philosophy of the one company driving the brand.

This has to be one of the chief reasons why professional Blu-ray authoring is being done all but exclusively on Windows-based machines. Sonic Solutions can configure exactly the sort of workstation they want on the front end of the system without getting hamstrung by one single company's product line.

[Anthony P]

Well, Max, when you say things like: Apple, innovate?

Please, their designs are mostly stolen from Sony, and they nabbed the iPod design from Psion!

All Steve Jobs has done is energise the Mac fanboys into an online legion that no one will bother arguing with...

it may come across as you being a PC fanboy.

maybe it comes off as fanboyish but it is mostly on the money. The reality is Apple is just as bad as MS/PC, the only difference between the two is that no one pretends that MS/PC are innovative. You get a Mac fan and they spit out stupidities like MS stole the idea of a mouse or GUI interface from Apple, but the reality was both of those came from Xerox PARC and both people at Apple and MS got the idea from going there and seeing what those guys where working there. Most things people credit mac for are that way.

The real difference and strengths are that Apple has capable designers and a strong marketing arm and loyal (mad) fans while MS has market strength (so they don’t care)

The bad is that Apple tends to be navel gazing (if it is not apple and can’t be stolen then it is not good) while MS thinks its market strength in PC OS gives it control (Vista was buggy, but who cares, people will buy it, BD is better, but who cares, if we push HD DVD everyone will be forced to use it….)

[Bobby Henderson]

Microsoft doesn't have the stranglehold of control it once did over the Windows platform. Although they indeed wanted HD-DVD to succeed, various PC vendors such as Dell and Sony were backing Blu-ray. Dell and a number of other PC makers are now offering systems loaded with Linux as an alternative to Windows. That kind of move would have been unthinkable back in the mid 1990s; it would have incurred the wrath of Microsoft and unleashed a dirty tricks campaign. After a number of legal judgments and companies like Dell growing big enough to be crucial to the continued existence of Windows, Microsoft doesn't have quite the same business options anymore.

[aygie]

Originally Posted by Rob Tomlin

Anyway, we do agree that regarding their computers, Apple is not showing any more innovation than MS/PC (to the contrary).

Edit: Penton, this is probably getting out of hand/ OT in your thread. Sorry!

https://www.blu-ray.com/news/?id=1939

Rob, these drives will be out in December by the way. I just got a reply back from Amex.

PS. Get the Mac Pro, along with my PS3 its by far the best thing i've bought ever.

[Bobby Henderson]

You can buy after market Blu-ray burners for Mac towers or notebooks and use third party software (Adobe Encore, Toast) to burn HD video to Blu-ray. Is there any software Blu-ray movie players for Macs? Applications like PowerDVD and WinDVD are written for Windows only.

Apple isn't doing anything to support Blu-ray. You can't buy a new Mac from Apple with a Blu-ray drive already installed. None of Apple's software supports Blu-ray.

[aygie]

Originally Posted by Bobby Henderson

You can buy after market Blu-ray burners for Mac towers or notebooks and use third party software (Adobe Encore, Toast) to burn HD video to Blu-ray. Is there any software Blu-ray movie players for Macs? Applications like PowerDVD and WinDVD are written for Windows only.

Apple isn't doing anything to support Blu-ray. You can't buy a new Mac from Apple with a Blu-ray drive already installed. None of Apple's software supports Blu-ray.

Bobby the things you say are very true but from my point of view the important factor here is that Microsoft or its OS isn't helping Blu either.

MS don't have any Blu-ray capabilities out of the box either, its up to third party developers to make the programs and they haven't for Mac, just for the OS which dominates the market which isn't really fair.

Its not as if Apple are preventing anyone from making these programs, are they? Its up to the third party developers to give us BD support for Macs and they just aren't doing it. Whether its down to man power, minimum profit or something else i don't know.

PS. Compressor supports HD-DVD + Blu-ray encoding, not hugely but its there.


Mods, why was this removed?

Comparing Macs to Windows PCs by listing hardware specs doesn't make much sense. The big difference (pro Apple) is the OS...

And to call a company "not innovative" that just recently revolutionized the mobile phone market (on top of owning the mp3 player market and having the most advanced computer OS) is just bizarre. And again, the difference (pro Apple) in the phone and mp3 markets is also mainly in software. The beautifully designed hardware doesn't hurt, though.

But yes, Apple should support Blu-ray in their machines...

I dont see anything wrong in Eternal_Sunshine's post.

[Rob Tomlin]

Originally Posted by Bobby Henderson

You can buy after market Blu-ray burners for Mac towers or notebooks and use third party software (Adobe Encore, Toast) to burn HD video to Blu-ray. Is there any software Blu-ray movie players for Macs? Applications like PowerDVD and WinDVD are written for Windows only.

..

Apple isn't doing anything to support Blu-ray. You can't buy a new Mac from Apple with a Blu-ray drive already installed. None of Apple's software supports Blu-ray.

..

[desmond]

what about running windows applications in xp via bootcamp?

[aygie]

Originally Posted by desmond

what about running windows applications in xp via bootcamp?

Works fine.

[Bobby Henderson]

Originally Posted by Aygie

Bobby the things you say are very true but from my point of view the important factor here is that Microsoft or its OS isn't helping Blu either.

Microsoft isn't in a position to discourage adoption of the format either. They actually tried and failed in doing that, thanks to Dell, Sony and others weighing in with their support of Blu-ray.

You can buy a brand new PC from Dell, HP, Sony, Acer, Alienware, Voodoo, etc. with a Blu-ray combo drive or full blown Blu-ray burner included in the configuration and covered under warranty. Microsoft has no power to get in the way of that. This is not the case with Apple. You're stuck with whatever Apple gives you and then you're on your own when it comes to making changes to the machine to include hardware Apple should have been offering in the first place, especially when the hardware is commanding a much higher price.

Originally Posted by Rob Tomlin

The fact that I would have access to two different OS's and their respective software seems to be a big advantage (in the Mac's favor) to me.

It is pretty cool that a new Intel-based Mac can run both OSX and Windows natively. However, it's not so cool to be forced into running that "lesser OS" just to be able to play a Blu-ray movie from a BD drive. Ultimately, it exposes a negative marketing liability for Apple.

If a customer has to run Windows in order to do something as simple as playing a Blu-ray movie from an optical drive, why should he pay a hefty premium for Mac hardware and pay hundreds more for an after market copy of Windows XP or Vista when he could save several hundred dollars or more by simply buying something from Dell?

This is why I see more and more PCs popping up in creative businesses I deal with on a daily basis. I constantly exchange art files with different design houses, service bureaus and more. In these businesses, the applications and their capabilities are the real creative tool, not the operating system or computing brand.

Adobe is making more money by selling Windows versions of its products than Mac. That runs counter to the widely held belief any graphics professional is going to be using a Mac. Apple is losing customers in key professional areas and this Blu-ray thing is only going to make this trend worse.

If it sounds like I am bashing the Mac platform, believe me I am not. I want Apple to survive. Apple needs to survive for the overall health of the computing industry, especially in "power computing." I feel Apple is making a very costly mistake by placing too much emphasis on its iTunes and movie downloads business. They're going to lose their foothold in professional HD video production if they keep up with this destructive nonsense regarding Blu-ray.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Robert Harris

Couldn't have said it better myself. Grain and pixels have absolutely nothing in common. Grain is random, not only in placement, but in size, from individual grains to grain clusters, as has been noted earlier in this thread...

which I presume may have begun sometime during the Wilson administration -- the President............

RAH

Thanks Robert , although, to be fair to 4K2K, I think he was just trying to get some kind of handle on ‘grain’ in terms of its size *in relation to* pixels as he doesn't work with this stuff on a daily basis.

4K2K,
most film grain is roughly about 8 to 16 pixels in ‘size’ in an area at 4K or larger.
Like I said, down rezzing 4K or 2K images from digital scans to 1920x1080 is not going to make prominent grain particles from certain film stock disappear or bleed together like with the film-out from a digital scan for release prints.

Lowry Digital works under the basic philosophy that there are two types of grain, kinda like two types of cholesterol in peoples’ bloodstream, i.e. “good cholesterol” (HDL) and “bad cholesterol (LDL).
John believes that the grain which is correlated with the detail of an image is the “good” grain, whereas the grain which is uncorrelated with the detail of the image is the “bad” grain………or maybe not “bad” but at least superfluous as to contributing to the detail of the image viewed with a human’s visual system.

With their proprietary process they strive to correlate the picture elements from frame to frame so as to reduce the noise (bad grain), while at the same time extracting the finest detail (good grain) from the images.

Carry on guys...............with the Mac as well as other discussions as it seems I’m up to my arse in alligators for the time being.

[Uxi]

Originally Posted by Bobby Henderson

It is pretty cool that a new Intel-based Mac can run both OSX and Windows natively. However, it's not so cool to be forced into running that "lesser OS" just to be able to play a Blu-ray movie from a BD drive. Ultimately, it exposes a negative marketing liability for Apple.

Only if properly exploited. Don't get me wrong, I am detesting this knuckle-dragging by Apple, but at this point Apple can probably get away with it. Even it does show a thundering lack of foresight and smacks of their own bias towards the same endgoal as Microsoft's

Originally Posted by Bobby Henderson

If a customer has to run Windows in order to do something as simple as playing a Blu-ray movie from an optical drive, why should he pay a hefty premium for Mac hardware and pay hundreds more for an after market copy of Windows XP or Vista when he could save several hundred dollars or more by simply buying something from Dell?

Generally my MacBook Pro is not all that more expensive than a PC with equivalent hardware. The bottom feeder Dells are not comparable hardware with a MacBook, much less a Pro, and is mostly a market that Apple deliberately chooses not to compete it.

The lack of a BTO option is ridiculous, though, and as I mentioned a few pages back, it would be nice if Apple was required to do SOMETHING to merit their position in the BDA.

Maybe Penton (or Talk if he's still around) or Jeff or another insider can say if Apple is participating with BDA or if they're always voting present or abstaining or some such... Is there any possible recrimination or consequences in BDA for their... reticence?

I feel Apple is making a very costly mistake by placing too much emphasis on its iTunes and movie downloads business. They're going to lose their foothold in professional HD video production if they keep up with this destructive nonsense regarding Blu-ray.

Agreed

[Bobby Henderson]

Generally my MacBook Pro is not all that more expensive than a PC with equivalent hardware. The bottom feeder Dells are not comparable hardware with a MacBook, much less a Pro, and is mostly a market that Apple deliberately chooses not to compete it.

Over the last two weeks I have ordered three notebook computers for coworkers and family members of those coworkers. What I have seen directly from the Apple Store and Dell contradicts your claim. The MacBook and MacBook Pro lines are quite a lot more expensive. Worse yet, they don't have anywhere near as many configuration options as Dell.

Also, there's really nothing in a Mac in terms of components that you won't find in a Dell or many other PC brands. They're using the same CPU, same graphics chip sets, same memory modules and so many other pieces of hardware. The EFI bootstrap as opposed to a BIOS chip on the main board is really the only significant hardware difference. With a Mac, you're getting an arguably more fashionable looking machine and a slicker operating system. Dell is hardly a "bottom feeder" either. Often Acer and HP beat Dell in terms of low pricing, but you get a lot more "crap-ware" pre-installed to offset the bargain.

[ps3andlovinit]

Forget about Apple and PC fanboys. The link below is more relevant to Apple's adoption of Blu-ray. And the fact is they don't have to until they want to...if they want to. They don't care about the publishing "niche" as their vanguard anymore .. ancient history .. it's now very small potatoes compared to ipod and iphone and consumer entertainment. When it matters to that last market they will care.

"It’s not a hard case to make, especially considering the numbers Apple just posted. Profits were $1.14 billion on sales of $7.9 billion. But because of accounting rules that affect the iPhone and Apple TV, that actually understates the strength of Apple’s quarter. Counted another way, Apple actually sold $11.68 billion worth of product in the quarter, worth $2.44 billion in profit. Apple’s cash hoard ballooned to nearly $25 billion, leaving it with more cash than any other debt-free technology company. (That’s more than Microsoft (MSFT), Intel (INTC), or Google (GOOG); Cisco (CSCO) has more than $26 billion in cash, but it also has about $7 billion in debt.)"

"For a company that’s growing at Apple’s pace – it sold 6.9 million iPhones in the quarter, up from 1.1 million a year before..."

http://bigtech.blogs.fortune.cnn.com...ssive-quarter/

New sheriff in town .. same as the old one

[Uxi]

Sure. Noone thinks they have to. I'm just questioning why they remain in BDA and why they're allowed to be in BDA without bringing anything to the table.

[Bobby Henderson]

They don't care about the publishing "niche" as their vanguard anymore .. ancient history .. it's now very small potatoes compared to ipod and iphone and consumer entertainment. When it matters to that last market they will care.

If that's really how Apple feels they may end up in the long term as a company that only makes phones and portable music players.

A major cornerstone of the reputation and image of Apple Computer is that it has been the preferred choice of creative professional computer users and computer users that do all sorts of other cutting edge work. That's not completely true anymore, but it is what the general public has believed and still believes to some considerable extent. Apple has worked hard on maintaining that image. Now that image is being eroded in numerous areas. The lack of proper Blu-ray support on the Mac platform will worsen that professional user market erosion.

[ps3andlovinit]

Originally Posted by Uxi

Sure. Noone thinks they have to. I'm just questioning why they remain in BDA and why they're allowed to be in BDA without bringing anything to the table.

Definitely a valid point. Not sure if membership expires or what the contracts stipulate . and those that do know .. likely can't talk about them.

[ps3andlovinit]

Originally Posted by Bobby Henderson

If that's really how Apple feels they may end up in the long term as a company that only makes phones and portable music players.

and games

Originally Posted by Bobby Henderson

A major cornerstone of the reputation and image of Apple Computer is that it has been the preferred choice of creative professional computer users and computer users that do all sorts of other cutting edge work. That's not completely true anymore, but it is what the general public has believed and still believes to some considerable extent. Apple has worked hard on maintaining that image. Now that image is being eroded in numerous areas. The lack of proper Blu-ray support on the Mac platform will worsen that professional user market erosion.

Just looking at their explosion in the non-professional market that's tied to that swelling bank account and other observations .. and drawing my own conclusion. Follow the money. Not happy about it either. Looking at it the other way in terms of the bank account .. they can now "blow" tens of millions subsidizing Blu-ray adoption and barely notice it as pocket change.