"Club Penton" - Ask questions to Hollywood insider "Penton-Man"

[Oliver K]

Originally Posted by Robert Harris

My point is that the entire work flow should be based upon the highest resolution final product.

For example, scanning a 65mm OCN at 8k toward production on Blu-ray is a bit of a waste, as is dirt cleanup of an image at 4k, when not going out to film. Everything is budget vs. resolution dependent.

RAH

Thanks, that makes perfect sense. In the case of Spartacus would you say that for most parts a 4k scan of the IP is fine ? And would you want to go higher for a few shots that have slight alignment issues due to coming from separations ?

[GabrielB]

Originally Posted by Robert Harris

[...]

It all depends upon your needs.

That said, the digital world has given us wonderful tools. Just make very certain that those around you know how to handle them.

RAH

I had been away a few days and I just wanted to thank you for your input.

And yes. This is what we're trying to do (make sure...). But it's tricky since some people or facilities have a good track record but also have had their lot of catastrophe (something went wrong at some stage). Nothing seems consistent around here...

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

There’s going to be a 30 sec. commercial for Angels and Demons during the Super Bowl on Sunday.
Some of the green screen work was shot with the RED camera as well as some on 35 mm. film.

After the film debuts theatrically, I may be able to speak about how much green screen/RED footage made it to the final cut.

By the way, in this case ^ it was green rather than blue with "300" as noted here at the end of the post….
https://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.p...postcount=6669

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Robert Harris

The 100k number for Becket can be misleading, as the majority of post 1961 color productions are not in need of combined separation masters. Becket is the odd case, as the OCN had been "misplaced."

My memory is vague on that and you certainly may be right but, I seem to remember that Wallis ?sp. (the producer) didn’t store the original source properly and it was unusable rather than it being misplaced or, ‘lost’ due to overprinting in the lab……..you’d have to ask Mike P. next time you bump into him.

I do remember (which is weird) given the fact that you mentioned the separation masters, that YCM in Burbank did the work with Becket’s separation masters and Chace did the audio restoration.

P.S.
For those audio freaks out there, Chace (good people-http://www.chace.com/Pages/company/awards.html Oklahoma, Gone With The Wind, Bridge on the River Kwai, etc.) recently came out with an online glossary, if anyone is interested…………….
http://www.triggertone.com/

[GabrielB]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

It’s more difficult, expensive and time consuming to match grain well (scene to scene or part of frame to part of frame), than it is just to add grain to a clean slate (i.e. your RED master) because viewers of the end product (movie watchers) have no internal reference.

Since you said you’re in Montreal, just ask the folks at Technicolor Montreal as they had that task for the film “300”.

Wow... we cannot seem to get* consistent answers... (*edit: meaning info gathered here doesn't match up)

I've worked with both Technicolor and Vision Globale here in Montreal and we've had problems with both. Last time they had made a huge mistake reprinting the graded DI back to film on a big feature.

And weren't you the one who said the lab here in Montreal had made a mistake during the shoot of 300?

It seems no one (that we have seen or spoke) knows these beasts front to end. Anyways, we'll see...


I would though be very curious to get an answer to that question... I know it's the guys and not the tools but just curious...

What software/platform/plug-ins combos have they use to regrain the VistaVision footage to match the Imax grain structure from our favorite crusader's movie?

[Torsten Kaiser TLE]

Originally Posted by Robert Harris

The 100k number for Becket can be misleading, as the majority of post 1961 color productions are not in need of combined separation masters. Becket is the odd case, as the OCN had been "misplaced."

A nominal production of average length, with a decently clean OCN and track can come in far lower. Hit the 1950s and numbers rise.

The price tag in my experience is not at all determined by the year of production. Many fine grain or OCN materials from as far back as the 30s can still be an excellent source if stored and preserved properly. However, the further you go back further in time the more the number of cases where the OCN or the subsequent fine grain materials are in (next to) perfect shape decreases. But, one can say this: the more damaged the material, the more work that needs to be done on the photo-chemical, photo-optical and the digital level, where things can be corrected and even fixed up to a certain point - the higher, in the end the price tag. Unfortunately, in the past materials were often copied over and over again from the CN itself, once that was unusable, the next gen dupes where next. THE MAN WITH THE GOLDEN ARM is a perfect example how wrong things can get, and there are many examples like it. Some materials have issues with fading, shrinkage or other forms of deformation. Some of these issues can be addressed photo-chemically; some of them only digitally, if at all. I agree very much with RAH that it is not only the tools that determine the quality outcome. It is the RIGHT tools for the respective cases and the KNOWLEDGE, TALENT and EXPERIENCE of the people who use them. I keep saying that this is a key element in the equasion, because knowing and understanding what they CAN AND CANNOT do is what brings you closer to solving any problem.

Originally Posted by Oliver K

I think it should be identical to the Blu-Ray. BoB has issues but looking back at my post it is still significantly better than Spartacus so I should not have put them in the same sentence.

When BoB came out I thought it looked good if not great but since then I have seen many excellent movies in HiDef and I also watched BoB on 70mm and upon revisiting it I was disappointed that it does not hold up as well as other titles like The Searchers, Grand Prix or How The West Was Won. I guess more than anything it is a case of shifting standards and putting it in the same sentence with Spartacus was a bit excessive.

Spartacus on the other hand looked bad from the day I got it, Universal really needs to start from scratch before they release it on Blu-Ray.

Originally Posted by Robert Harris

My point is that the entire work flow should be based upon the highest resolution final product.

For example, scanning a 65mm OCN at 8k toward production on Blu-ray is a bit of a waste, as is dirt cleanup of an image at 4k, when not going out to film. Everything is budget vs. resolution dependent.

RAH

BATTLE OF THE BULGE is (as THE LONGEST DAY and PATTON, though there with different tools) another example how denoising tools should not be used in the mastering process, if they are used at all. I still have huge problems with these kind of tools, especially when they are not checked (QCd) frame by frame and when performed on the original transfer master level. The problems are very easy to spot; and for a 65mm scan, which (provided a low generation element was used, and that seems to be the case) should render an excellent quality result, is an odd thing to happen to say the least. The problems with SPARTACUS are much different in nature (choice of source, numerous errors in color re-timing during mastering, massive de-noising, compression artifacts on the master used etc) but once the proper element(s) is/are used and the proper tools [and people] included in the workflow the result should be just fine. 8K is, indeed, a waste of money if cleanup and digital restoration are not performed on the same level; artifacting is still also an issue when the 8K master is downconverted to HD level. 4K, however, could provide a far better plattform as the oversampling here would be beneficial and artifacts not be as much of a problem. But, even a 4K scan is still very expensive.

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

My memory is vague on that and you certainly may be right but, I seem to remember that Wallis ?sp. (the producer) didn’t store the original source properly and it was unusable rather than it being misplaced or, ‘lost’ due to overprinting in the lab……..you’d have to ask Mike P. next time you bump into him.

I do remember (which is weird) given the fact that you mentioned the separation masters, that YCM in Burbank did the work with Becket’s separation masters and Chace did the audio restoration.

P.S.
For those audio freaks out there, Chace (good people-http://www.chace.com/Pages/company/awards.html Oklahoma, Gone With The Wind, Bridge on the River Kwai, etc.) recently came out with an online glossary, if anyone is interested…………….
http://www.triggertone.com/

YCM did the work in close consultation with and supervision by AMPAS. Chase restored the original mono track and created a pseudo-stereo and a 5.1 DD track "derivative". It is, however, very curious that the restored mono track is not included on the Blu-ray edition.

[plee]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

So, you’ve been over to Jodi’s garage too?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TZiWid5gO_E

You to admit she put up a good face till the dying end...

Most of us probably would have said "I'm outta here, see ya later..." or couldn't keep a straight face during the speech.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by GabrielB

Wow... we cannot seem to get* consistent answers... (*edit: meaning info gathered here doesn't match up)

Gab, I don’t know what else to tell you except that if you’re planning this RED captured feature to be primarily distributed for home media (either Blu-ray or DVD), then I would think long and hard before you jump into adding grain to the RED master to give it more of a “film look” because you will end up making the compressionist’s job very challenging, esp. if this is mostly for DVD in mind (necessitating some inevitable encoding grain reduction after you guys so diligently added grain in the first place).

You may also want to consider not even adding grain at all but, pulling a defocused luminance key in post to give it the same look as something like the TV show “Eleventh Hour” –to avoid the picture appearing too video-ish, if that is the concern of the RED filmmakers.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by GabrielB

I've worked with both Technicolor and Vision Globale here in Montreal and we've had problems with both. Last time they had made a huge mistake reprinting the graded DI back to film on a big feature.

And weren't you the one who said the lab here in Montreal had made a mistake during the shoot of 300?

Hey, don’t get me in trouble with anyone in the industry over there in Montreal, as they play ice hockey thereabouts!
I just relayed to everyone what Chris Watts (the VFX Supervisor) said.

I’m not sure it was a “mistake” but also dependent upon budgetary concerns and dealing with a small lab.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Torsten Kaiser TLE

The price tag in my experience is not at all determined by the year of production. Many fine grain or OCN materials from as far back as the 30s can still be an excellent source if stored and preserved properly. However, the further you go back further in time the more the number of cases where the OCN or the subsequent fine grain materials are in (next to) perfect shape decreases. But, one can say this: the more damaged the material, the more work that needs to be done on the photo-chemical, photo-optical and the digital level, where things can be corrected and even fixed up to a certain point - the higher, in the end the price tag. Unfortunately, in the past materials were often copied over and over again from the CN itself, once that was unusable, the next gen dupes where next. THE MAN WITH THE GOLDEN ARM is a perfect example how wrong things can get, and there are many examples like it. Some materials have issues with fading, shrinkage or other forms of deformation. Some of these issues can be addressed photo-chemically; some of them only digitally, if at all. I agree very much with RAH that it is not only the tools that determine the quality outcome. It is the RIGHT tools for the respective cases and the KNOWLEDGE, TALENT and EXPERIENCE of the people who use them. I keep saying that this is a key element in the equasion, because knowing and understanding what they CAN AND CANNOT do is what brings you closer to solving any problem.




BATTLE OF THE BULGE is (as THE LONGEST DAY and PATTON, though there with different tools) another example how denoising tools should not be used in the mastering process, if they are used at all. I still have huge problems with these kind of tools, especially when they are not checked (QCd) frame by frame and when performed on the original transfer master level. The problems are very easy to spot; and for a 65mm scan, which (provided a low generation element was used, and that seems to be the case) should render an excellent quality result, is an odd thing to happen to say the least. The problems with SPARTACUS are much different in nature (choice of source, numerous errors in color re-timing during mastering, massive de-noising, compression artifacts on the master used etc) but once the proper element(s) is/are used and the proper tools [and people] included in the workflow the result should be just fine. 8K is, indeed, a waste of money if cleanup and digital restoration are not performed on the same level; artifacting is still also an issue when the 8K master is downconverted to HD level. 4K, however, could provide a far better plattform as the oversampling here would be beneficial and artifacts not be as much of a problem. But, even a 4K scan is still very expensive.



YCM did the work in close consultation with and supervision by AMPAS. Chase restored the original mono track and created a pseudo-stereo and a 5.1 DD track "derivative". It is, however, very curious that the restored mono track is not included on the Blu-ray edition.

^
Don't have time to read now, but it is certainly nice to see you back.
I've gotta run to a meeting.
Thanks for the contribution.

Later.

[Penton-Man]

Heads-up to all you contest maniacs, as a winner will be chosen from each of the seven participating countries - the U.S., Canada, the UK, France, Italy, Germany, and Spain and the prize package is indeed FINE!

http://www.earthtimes.org/articles/s...-,700787.shtml

[GabrielB]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Gab, I don’t know what else to tell you except that if you’re planning this RED captured feature to be primarily distributed for home media (either Blu-ray or DVD), [...]

Hey Penton my man. Thanks a lot for your input. I was not expecting any more words of wisdom... But I appreciate.

Ironically we've never met but I trust more of the little bits we discussed than what I've been told in meetings and such that lasted hours. I don't know what the hell is the problem, these fellows are professionals but they are not consistent with what they're telling me.

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Hey, don’t get me in trouble with anyone in the industry over there in Montreal, as they play ice hockey thereabouts!
I just relayed to everyone what Chris Watts (the VFX Supervisor) said.

I’m not sure it was a “mistake” but also dependent upon budgetary concerns and dealing with a small lab.

Ha ha... Outside the ice you should be fine. Although we've been known to devastate the city when we win. Just don't come here during the playoffs... Unless you want to and then then and and in the end .

And sure... Everyone now knows that some guy from California who knows lots of shit is telling everybody that Technicolor Montreal is a disaster!

Is that bad?

Cheers

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by GabrielB

And sure... Everyone now knows that some guy from California who knows lots of shit is telling everybody that Technicolor Montreal is a disaster!

Is that bad?

Yes, that’s bad as Technicolor has a digital intermediate facility at this location in Culver City…….
http://www.technicolor.com/Cultures/...termediate.htm

and people get transferred all the time!
I’ll just have to be careful from now on to watch out for anyone carrying a hockey stick around the lot and make sure I can damn well sing this on key whenever prompted to by somebody that’s missing some front teeth…….
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QDCdo...eature=related

[GabrielB]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

and people get transferred all the time!
I’ll just have to be careful from now on to watch out for anyone carrying a hockey stick around the lot and make sure I can damn well sing this on key whenever prompted to by somebody that’s missing some front teeth…….
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QDCdo...eature=related

Oh Canada! Terre de nos aïeux... la la la la...
I'll have to give you french lessons!

Although singing the anthem is not my kind religion, this video gave me shivers. Go habs go!
Penton you are a youtube Olympic Athlete!

[Penton-Man]

Je parle un petit peu francais.

Well anyway, I think I’ve devoted enough time to the sport of hockey, so in honor of the sport of American football and a new meaning to the term “going deep” ……..
http://www.tmz.com/2009/02/02/porn-c...owl-broadcast/

I do like the way they make special mention of the “high-def viewers” as a distinct demographic group.

P.S.
Hey, Iceman - ^ that’s payback for the last video clip you posted on my thread, which prompted a call to me from Human Resources.

[DenonCI]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

P.S.
Hey, Iceman - ^ that’s payback for the last video clip you posted on my thread, which prompted a call to me from Human Resources.

It got me in hot water with my wife as well...but hey, that was one hell of a magic act!

[Robert Harris]

Originally Posted by Torsten Kaiser TLE

[FONT="Tahoma"]The price tag in my experience is not at all determined by the year of production. Many fine grain or OCN materials from as far back as the 30s can still be an excellent source if stored and preserved properly. However, the further you go back further in time the more the number of cases where the OCN or the subsequent fine grain materials are in (next to) perfect shape decreases.

This is quite correct, but does not apply to the 1950s Eastman Color productions.

OCNs survive on many three-strip Tech shows now heading toward their eighth decade, but 1950s Eastman...

RAH

[iceman]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Well anyway, I think I’ve devoted enough time to the sport of hockey, so in honor of the sport of American football and a new meaning to the term “going deep” ……..
http://www.tmz.com/2009/02/02/porn-c...owl-broadcast/

Some football-fan-techie at Comcast seems to have humour

Originally Posted by DenonCI

It got me in hot water with my wife as well...but hey, that was one hell of a magic act!

You need to market it properly and explain for her the huge difference between you ehm, observing, certain Vegas shows with your buddies and appreciating serious, fine art on national television! Huuge difference!

Since I'm somewhat of a wine/Champagne gourmand I accidently ran into a new Champagne when doing some research. So Penton, if you are planning on going to any Hollywood parties in the near future, I recommend you to bring a dozen of those for immediate party success!

[DenonCI]

Since I'm somewhat of a wine/Champagne gourmand I accidently ran into a new Champagne when doing some research.

Hmmm...a title fit for my wife

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Torsten Kaiser TLE

YCM did the work in close consultation with and supervision by AMPAS. Chase restored the original mono track and created a pseudo-stereo and a 5.1 DD track "derivative". It is, however, very curious that the restored mono track is not included on the Blu-ray edition.

As an aside, a few years back, Pacific Title was promoting a process to digitally generate YCM separation masters.
Torsten, I would have passed this info on to you last month, as the event was open to non-members and was free (including the evening’s reception) ……
---------------------------------------
Making it in Post - Cinematography and Post-production

The BVK, German Society of Cinematographers, whilst holding its Annual
General Assembly is holding a series of presentations or lectures this coming Saturday 24th of January.
The theme of the symposium is "Making it in Post - Cinematography and
Post-production". Location is Studio Hamburg, Jensfelder Allee 80, 22039
Hamburg. Some participants to the presentations or lectures are:

- Benjamin Müller, DedoWeigert "Life is to short for 24 frames- Highspeed in HD"
- Rolf Coulanges bvk - "Postpro with Raw date D-21"
- Martin Ludwig bvk & Florian Rettich bvk - "Documentary and Post-production with RED"
- Alexander Schwarz (VANTAGE) - "Prepping for Post-production ,the PSU-3 on Set"
-Stefan Ciupek , (P+S Technik) - "Slumdog Millionaire" (SI-2K)
- Holger Schwärzel (KODAK) - "Emulsionsdesign for the digital Workflow"
- Henning Rädlein (ARRI) - "Film-Degraining: a new Post-productions-Tool"
-----------------------------------------------

but, I didn’t…… because I figured your company is well south of Hamburg, which begs the question (for future reference), where do you guys do your day jobs in Germany?