"Club Penton" - Ask questions to Hollywood insider "Penton-Man"

[Oliver K]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

I want my two dollars!

Thank you You shall receive your two dollars when that movie has been released

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Someone from Variety was there who moderated the keynote, so keep an eye out on their website, as I imagine they will do a short spiel on the expo sometime in the near future.

Will keep an eye on that Variety site, it is always interesting to read about these things from a completely different perspective.

With regard to Warner I wonder if they have done Amadeus in 4k ? I read somewhere quite some time ago that from now on Warner wanted to do all their work on catalog titles in 4k or above - I am at a loss why it should be necessary to scan Amadeus at 4k for a final result that looks like the Blu-Ray in question...

In the end I cannot help but wonder what is going on at Warner. Though the writing was on the wall I was also surprised that they announced support for that Chinese HD-DVD clone a few days ago and one wonders what they are up to next - going back to the same encodes for CBHD and Blu-Ray ?

[Doctorossi]

Originally Posted by Oliver K

That being said there is one rather nice Blu-Ray of The Pink Panther, but I would not be surprised if it came from a 2k scan.

I've heard that The Pink Panther was a 4k. Sleeping Beauty was a 2k (and very manipulated, of course).

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Oliver K

With regard to Warner I wonder if they have done Amadeus in 4k ?

I didn’t even ask, as it was not that important to the topic at hand.
From a discerning home enthusiasts viewing perspective, the problem with Amadeus isn’t what scanning resolution was used on the film element, the problem is, the needlessly excessive degree of digital manipulation that was performed somewhere down the chain after scanning.

For a superbly better Blu-ray product, all Amadeus needs is a 2k scan followed by a good transfer and good encode. It’s simple, not brain surgery. Now, if one desired to preserve Amadeus for asset management, yes, I would scan it at 4k to harvest every detail possible because you don’t know what future display technologies will be available and commonplace both at theatrical venues and in peoples’ homes.

In fact, Ned Price is doing A Star is Born over at WB at 6k for that very purpose…..something I believe RAH has said here, that he is in favor of.

[dialog_gvf]

Originally Posted by Oliver K

The new motto seems to be: Nobody can resolve 18k anyway, let's go for 2k instead

One could imagine that having the idea to go for digital they would downplay the resolution advantages of Imax, instead they rather exaggerate it and then choose 2k instead of 4k for digital Imax - unbelievable !

Are they really using a single 2K projector for an IMAX 2D Digital presentation?

If so, it seems to me the beancounters are about to cheapskate IMAX into oblivion.

Gary

[Oliver K]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

I didn’t even ask, as it was not that important to the topic at hand.
From a discerning home enthusiasts viewing perspective, the problem with Amadeus isn’t what scanning resolution was used on the film element, the problem is, the needlessly excessive degree of digital manipulation that was performed somewhere down the chain after scanning.

For a superbly better Blu-ray product, all Amadeus needs is a 2k scan followed by a good transfer and good encode. It’s simple, not brain surgery. Now, if one desired to preserve Amadeus for asset management, yes, I would scan it at 4k to harvest every detail possible because you don’t know what future display technologies will be available and commonplace both at theatrical venues and in peoples’ homes.

To my knowledge the reasoning for going with 4k as a norm was as you described. As for the adavntages that might give for a Blu-Ray releases Amadeus is probably not the title that would profit a lot from downsampling 4k to Blu-Ray resolution.

I completely agree that a 2k scan that is properly treated would be all that is needed to put the current Blu-Ray of Amadeus to shame but it would still be ironic if the current Blu-Ray was indeed derived from a 4k scan.

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

In fact, Ned Price is doing A Star is Born over at WB at 6k for that very purpose…..something I believe RAH has said here, that he is in favor of.

I hope they will get that one right !

[Doctorossi]

Originally Posted by dialog_gvf

Are they really using a single 2K projector for an IMAX 2D Digital presentation?

Sadly, yes. It's pretty pathetic, IMO.

[Doctorossi]

Originally Posted by Oliver K

I completely agree that a 2k scan that is properly treated would be all that is needed to put the current Blu-Ray of Amadeus to shame but it would still be ironic if the current Blu-Ray was indeed derived from a 4k scan.

I'm sure a new 2k could produce a much better Blu-ray derivation than the current disc, but a 4k could produce one better still.

[Oliver K]

Originally Posted by dialog_gvf

Are they really using a single 2K projector for an IMAX 2D Digital presentation?

If so, it seems to me the beancounters are about to cheapskate IMAX into oblivion.

Gary

Yep, 2k it is. They should stop calling it Imax, I suggest to change it to "just another 2k cinema"

Originally Posted by Doctorossi

I'm sure a new 2k could produce a much better Blu-ray derivation than the current disc, but a 4k could produce one better still.

Yes, but the difference in this case would probably be rather small compared to other movies that are much better suited to show off the advantages of coming from a 4k scan.

[Doctorossi]

Originally Posted by Oliver K

They should stop calling it Imax

If they had any respect for their own product and enough survival instinct to think further ahead than next week, they would at least come up with an adjunct brand for it- even simply "IMAX Digital" would be acceptable. Anything to let people know they're missing something if they don't seek out an IMAX film installation and help the people who do know the difference understand what they're buying. Now that they've taken their master commercial theatre list off of their website, it can be almost impossible to find out on the Web if any particular theatre you haven't been to is a real IMAX theatre or "just another 2k cinema".

Originally Posted by Oliver K

Yes, but the difference in this case would probably be rather small compared to other movies that are much better suited to show off the advantages of coming from a 4k scan.

Agreed.

[Doctorossi]

Does anyone know if any of the insiders around here are colorists or, particularly, have any knowledge about LUTs as they relate to Blu-ray? I have a couple of specific questions I'd like to ask.

[sharkshark]

re IMAX, remembered this from last year:
http://gizmodo.com/367129/imax-theat...dlp-projectors

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Read………….
https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...ua#post1633904

Now…………
Joshua’s response regarding the viewing of his motion picture –

Well, to say the least, he wasn’t happy because he felt that the ‘colored’ imagery with the color filters turned out hardly as subtle as he had intended it to.

So, after he saw the public preview, he went to his producer and asked that he take back the film and get the overt color filtered sequences either removed or bleached out to make them look more subtle.
The producer informed him that it was too late to do that, unless other sold-out previews were cancelled and he (the producer, namely George Skouras) was unwilling to do that.
Allegedly, by Joshua’s own words, the producer told him….”It’s your fault. You made it cost too much money, so I’ve got to get my money back.”

Next installment ----How South Pacific manifested itself in terms of financial success and how it influenced Joshua Logan’s further Directorial career in the movies…….in particular with Jack Warner of Warner Bros. Studios.

^ ^
Well, to make a long story short, South Pacific ultimately became the most financially successful thing Joshua Logan ever created during his entire life because it produced more $ than all his other films and plays combined!
Story goes, that the Brits even loved it more than the Americans because the imagery with the color filters had such a pleasant uplifting look in contrast to the often times bleak appearing weather of their country.

In fact, the Writer and also the Composer of Camelot were so enthralled with the “flair and imagination” of the motion picture South Pacific compared to all the other musicals which had made it to the Big Screen, that they implored the Producer of Camelot to hire Joshua Logan as their Director for the motion picture Camelot.

Jack Warner (of WB) concurred and did.

So, for the sake of those members who asked (wallendo ?sp) and those who didn’t but, always wanted to know……that’s the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help me Joshua Logan, according to one of his books and his papers at the Library of Congress, and therein lies my conclusion of the Fable of the Filters for South Pacific.

The only thing I would like to add is that as I previously mentioned in a post last year, all the reference prints had faded over time and they (meaning the Fox restoration people under the direction of Schawn [Belston]) got the company that made the actual camera filters used during the original production, to make new ones from the original data which ultimately proved extremely helpful for the colorist during the restoration……..given the faded state of the prints.

Additionally, for those that would like to see some of ‘Shammy’s’ (Leon Shamroy) work sans the color filters of South Pacific, since he was one of the most highly regarded cinematographers of the time, one need only to watch the soon to be released Blu-ray entitled The Robe, as the DP is one in the same.

I love how all this stuff ties together in the end.

[Penton-Man]

^
P.S.
Twenty years following the theatrical debut of the movie South Pacific, Joshua wrote that in retrospect, despite all the successes of the film, he should not have used those color filters in the first place.

About 10 years after that, ‘Josh’ Logan passed (in 1988).

On another historical note, South Pacific received an Academy nomination for Best Cinematography…….
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hwYOUMwbC34

as did The Robe, for that matter.
Ah, the days when “camera movement” was defined as something other that *shaky cam*.

[wallendo]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

^
P.S.
Twenty years following the theatrical debut of the movie South Pacific, Joshua wrote that in retrospect, despite all the successes of the film, he should not have used those color filters in the first place.

About 10 years after that, ‘Josh’ Logan passed (in 1988).

On another historical note, South Pacific received an Academy nomination for Best Cinematography…….
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hwYOUMwbC34

as did The Robe, for that matter.
Ah, the days when “camera movement” was defined as something other that *shaky cam*.

Thanks for the info. I am appreciative of your time and effort.

I agree the filters should never have been used (maybe I can send a terminator back to terminate the filters)

[Robert Harris]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

The only thing I would like to add is that as I previously mentioned in a post last year, all the reference prints had faded over time

AFAIK, there are dye transfer prints on this title that have survived.

[dialog_gvf]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

^
P.S.
Twenty years following the theatrical debut of the movie South Pacific, Joshua wrote that in retrospect, despite all the successes of the film, he should not have used those color filters in the first place.

A bit of a nightmare for deciding what exactly should be the target of a restoration: The original presentation (considered flawed by Joshua) or the original (as yet unrealized) intent?

Gary

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by wallendo

Thanks for the info. I am appreciative of your time and effort.

I agree the filters should never have been used (maybe I can send a terminator back to terminate the filters)

Your welcome , as it took quite a bit of my time.

Honestly, I also felt somewhat compelled to do a spiel after reading so much misinformation about this topic over the internet, even back during the days prior to high definition home media. I remember reading just about every reason imaginable as to why people thought or pronounced as fact for Josh Logan using those filters.

Personally, from an aesthetic viewpoint, they really don’t bother me too much…..not nearly as much as watching a western shot with a digital camera – which just doesn’t look *right*.

Thank goodness for Ed Harris and Appalossa.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Robert Harris

AFAIK, there are dye transfer prints on this title that have survived.

Good to hear as no mention of that fact was made during the Q&A that followed the digital presentation (D5 master tape projected via a Christie 2k DLP projector) of the restoration back in ’06 at the Digital Cinema Lab.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by dialog_gvf

A bit of a nightmare for deciding what exactly should be the target of a restoration: The original presentation (considered flawed by Joshua) or the original (as yet unrealized) intent?

Gary

I think it potentially would have been a bit of an ethical dilemma if Joshua had lived (and had been available for consultation) on the restoration roughly fifteen years later, and still felt the same way about things as back in ~ 1978.

In that case, I definitely would not want to be in Schawn’s shoes.

[Doctorossi]

Originally Posted by dialog_gvf

A bit of a nightmare for deciding what exactly should be the target of a restoration: The original presentation (considered flawed by Joshua) or the original (as yet unrealized) intent?

Thankfully, budgets permitting, we have the wonderful (and too often under-utilized) third option: both!