4K Blu-ray Confirmed, Coming in

[jeff_rigby]

Originally Posted by dvdmike

Panasonic are saying in the new HCC they may wait for a one chip solution before making a player outside Japan

For DRM requirements? Both the Movie industry and FCC for Downloadable Security want everything in a TEE (Trusted Execution Environment) one chip SoC solution with HDCP taking place in the TEE not the HDMI chip (PS4 does this). HDMI 2 also has LAN support and HDMI Multi-stream where the encrypted stream may be sent over the LAN to a TV in the home and the TV treats the LAN as a HDMI input.

So everything (commercial media) enters the SoC encrypted and exits encrypted. Any Media saved to hard disk for the Digital bridge or streamed over the home network is encrypted in that same SoC.

If the PS4 Southbridge has HEVC support then the second version (support chips moved into Southbridge) of the Southbridge is essentially a one chip version and could be used in Sony Blu-ray players which to my mind seems likely. UHD BLu-ray players with digital bridge will likely have a Internet Browser, USB port, Video chat, Apps and support Vidipath. I.E. a PS4 without the APU and GDDR5. Price about $100 less than the PS4.

Edit: Commercial on-line transactions require a TEE and GPU in that TEE (can be a Xtensa processor known to be in the PS4 Southbridge) to generate Trust Icons for customer assurance. Xtensa processors can handle UIs and can support games (It's mentioned in the Xtensa website) or a browser if powerful enough. The latest Khronos Vulcan open source GPU driver Uses Khronos’ new SPIR-V™ which simplifies drivers using Compute (Xtensa processors are also considered GPGPU compute processors and their design is similar to Cell and the more modern compute parts of new GPUs.

Further the PS4 Southbridge talks to the AMD APU via a PCIe connection which is pretty much universal now. That same chip can be paired with any SoC supporting past (refreshed PS3 APU with PCIe) or future projects.

[PRO-630HD]

Originally Posted by SillySauce

The compression is going to be bad. 2k DCP's that the theaters use are on 200gb harddrives. The 4k DCP's are much bigger. We need more space.

+1

When bluray came out they all said VC1 and AVC were 2-3x as efficient as mpeg-2, but they didn't use it as an excuse for low disc capacity. With 6x the resolution of dvd they made a disc with 5x the capacity and many titles use bitrates pushing near maximum 40mbps.

In theory they should be using discs with 3x the capacity of bluray since the format has 4x the resolution and not use HEVC as an excuse for a UHD title on a 50gb disc. Why 128gb discs were not included in the spec is beyond me?! Over time the ability to replicate those discs would get cheaper and the technology has been in place since 2010.

It is funny reading stories from 2013 about plans for 300gb discs to be used in 4K bluray. Yet we are getting 50gb discs to do this? Warner actually had the same idea for a HD format on 8.5gb dvd. This forshadowed BD-9. Unlike today thank god it didn't happen then!

[PRO-630HD]

Originally Posted by dvdmike

They do not use HEVC

When AVC came out it was not an excuse for low 10 mbps blurays! These discs need to be pushing consistently 60 mbps plus for video. It will be interesting to see what the bitrates are, on what for the most part are low capacity discs for UHD being 50 and 66gb.

[bailey1987]

Originally Posted by PRO-630HD

When AVC came out it was not an excuse for low 10 mbps blurays! These discs need to be pushing consistently 60 mbps plus for video. It will be interesting to see what the bitrates are, on what for the most part are low capacity discs for UHD being 50 and 66gb.

Has it been said yet what the max bitrates are for audio and video combined? usually it's lower than the maximum advertised for the disc.

[jeff_rigby]

Originally Posted by PRO-630HD

+1

When bluray came out they all said VC1 and AVC were 2-3x as efficient as mpeg-2, but they didn't use it as an excuse for low disc capacity. With 6x the resolution of dvd they made a disc with 5x the capacity and many titles use bitrates pushing near maximum 40mbps.

In theory they should be using discs with 3x the capacity of bluray since the format has 4x the resolution and not use HEVC as an excuse for a UHD title on a 50gb disc. Why 128gb discs were not included in the spec is beyond me?! Over time the ability to replicate those discs would get cheaper and the technology has been in place since 2010.

It is funny reading stories from 2013 about plans for 300gb discs to be used in 4K bluray. Yet we are getting 50gb discs to do this? Warner actually had the same idea for a HD format on 8.5gb dvd. This forshadowed BD-9. Unlike today thank god it didn't happen then!

Adding a layer to a commercial disk is expensive. That's why we have the 2 layer specs for UHD Blu-ray in addition to the three and why they have the Panasonic-Sony firmware tweak to get that extra bit per layer. The three layer disk is commercial ROM not a BDXL recordable...the commercial disk is MUCH easier to read than the recordable BDXL.

I thought everyone knew this as it's part of my argument that any modern standard blu-ray drive can read a 3 layer UHD disk. The firmware has to support reading the disk directory like a BDXL would have and that tells the drive how to find the tracks even that third layer just like the second layer in standard drives which also is read through the semi-transparent first layer. The disk is the key not the drive.

You literally have to rewrite the firmware to not read a UHD disk or like in the Sony patent, invert the track information on the UHD disk so that it can't be read by a standard drive. This makes Ito's comments about the PS4 not having a UHD drive ignorance or miss-information.

[sonicyogurt]

Originally Posted by jeff_rigby

This makes Ito's comments about the PS4 not having a UHD drive ignorance or miss-information.

...or there's the possibility (probability? near-certainty?) that a Sony Computer Entertainment senior EVP who's directly involved in working out a possible UHD BD implementation knows more about the format, its requirements, and the capabilities of existing PS4 hardware than you do. It's very possible that what you're saying was true at one time, but that would seem to no longer be the case.

For crying out loud, up until I corrected you a couple of weeks ago, you thought UHD BD players and media were already on store shelves. You're not as well-informed or in-the-loop as you think you are. Ito's comments very much indicate that this is something he and his team have investigated, not some off-the-cuff response. Maybe Ito's mistaken, but his credentials give his words more weight. No amount of jargon, acronyms, links to whitepapers, and images of schematics will change that.

It's absolutely worth questioning statements like the ones Ito has made, but I don't think it's fair to call him ignorant or misinformed when (1) he's in a position to know more than we do, and (2) there are so many other question marks out there.

[dvdmike]

Originally Posted by jeff_rigby

For DRM requirements? Both the Movie industry and FCC for Downloadable Security want everything in a TEE (Trusted Execution Environment) one chip SoC solution with HDCP taking place in the TEE not the HDMI chip (PS4 does this). HDMI 2 also has LAN support and HDMI Multi-stream where the encrypted stream may be sent over the LAN to a TV in the home and the TV treats the LAN as a HDMI input.

So everything (commercial media) enters the SoC encrypted and exits encrypted. Any Media saved to hard disk for the Digital bridge or streamed over the home network is encrypted in that same SoC.

If the PS4 Southbridge has HEVC support then the second version (support chips moved into Southbridge) of the Southbridge is essentially a one chip version and could be used in Sony Blu-ray players which to my mind seems likely. UHD BLu-ray players with digital bridge will likely have a Internet Browser, USB port, Video chat, Apps and support Vidipath. I.E. a PS4 without the APU and GDDR5. Price about $100 less than the PS4.

Edit: Commercial on-line transactions require a TEE and GPU in that TEE (can be a Xtensa processor known to be in the PS4 Southbridge) to generate Trust Icons for customer assurance. Xtensa processors can handle UIs and can support games (It's mentioned in the Xtensa website) or a browser if powerful enough. The latest Khronos Vulcan open source GPU driver Uses Khronos’ new SPIR-V™ which simplifies drivers using Compute (Xtensa processors are also considered GPGPU compute processors and their design is similar to Cell and the more modern compute parts of new GPUs.

Further the PS4 Southbridge talks to the AMD APU via a PCIe connection which is pretty much universal now. That same chip can be paired with any SoC supporting past (refreshed PS3 APU with PCIe) or future projects.

For cost to market

[Wendell R. Breland]

Originally Posted by sonicyogurt

It's absolutely worth questioning statements like the ones Ito has made, but I don't think it's fair to call him ignorant or misinformed when (1) he's in a position to know more than we do, and (2) there are so many other question marks out there.

Linkedin members can see the profile of Masayasu Ito. Folks need to remember that many folks in many ares of industry are bound by NDA's.

[PRO-630HD]

Originally Posted by jeff_rigby

Adding a layer to a commercial disk is expensive. That's why we have the 2 layer specs for UHD Blu-ray in addition to the three and why they have the Panasonic-Sony firmware tweak to get that extra bit per layer. The three layer disk is commercial ROM not a BDXL recordable...the commercial disk is MUCH easier to read than the recordable BDXL.

For starters I could care less if it is expensive or not. over time the price to replicate a 4 layer 128 gb or even 133 gb disc would decrease. Oled TV's started at $15,000 for a 1080p 55in. set. now they are easily available for $1,800. Including it in the spec is wise as technology advances and state of the art now will not be so in 5 years.

I realize it is BD-ROM. 100gb 3 layer BDXL the foundation for 100gb 3 layer BD-ROM had its foundation 5 years ago. They have done nothing new here! 128 for easier reading 5 years ago so possibly even a 133 gb disc could easily have been done today should have been included in the spec end of story. My initial thought years ago were 75 to 150gb disc capacity and I posted the same info a few years back.

[img eL]

Originally Posted by PRO-630HD

I realize it is BD-ROM. 100gb 3 layer BDXL the foundation for 100gb 3 layer BD-ROM had its foundation 5 years ago. They have done nothing new here! 128 for easier reading 5 years ago so possibly even a 133 gb disc could easily have been done today should have been included in the spec end of story. My initial thought years ago were 75 to 150gb disc capacity and I posted the same info a few years back.

I'm sure the BDA will update the blu ray spec in the future to 150gb & beyond

[bailey1987]

Between now and the formats launch, what are the chances that any new features will be added to the specification, specifically features that will require a new HDMI standard?

I'm just looking at ATMOS enable receivers, I haven't checked what standard of HDMI they have as I am only looking at the prices, I'm so tempted to buy one as it doesn't seem like anything new will be added to the specification that will require a new HDMI standard like was the case with HDR.

I'm sure 3D will be added at some point but that is likely to be way off, by that time I will probably want a new one anyway, I just don't want to buy one this Christmas for the format to have a few surprises that we don't know about.

after writing this I have talked myself out of it either way.

[bailey1987]

Here's something: http://www.businesswire.com/news/hom...1028005577/en/

Cyberlink, makers of PowerDVD have joined the Ultra HD Blu-Ray development group.

[jeff_rigby]

Originally Posted by Wendell R. Breland

Linkedin members can see the profile of Masayasu Ito. Folks need to remember that many folks in many ares of industry are bound by NDA's.

Yup, what can you do if you are under NDA and a reporter puts you on the spot? If you follow the article, Ito after being asked if the PS4 will support UHD Blu-ray states the drive can't support it. The reporter asks if he is lying and he says HEVC is not in the PS4 and then when asked if a future version will support UHD Blu-ray he comes up with a PS4.1 might have it.

Ito's statement was picked up as supporting the Netflix/Forbes article that they were told the first version of the PS4 couldn't support Netflix 4K but a version at the end of the year could. Ito is not talking about the newer PS4 but a more powerful PS4.1 to come out sometime later.

[Dex Robinson]

Originally Posted by bailey1987

Here's something:

Cyberlink, makers of PowerDVD have joined the Ultra HD Blu-Ray development group.

Every time I see another one of these announcements, I think, "Great...but shouldn't I have been reading this 18 months ago"?

These things are full of "...working on the development...software for testing ...feedback during the development phase...".

It always sounds like there are a lot of people showing up for focus groups, brainstorming sessions and meetings. At this point, I'm primarily interested in announcements about actual players and discs being made available to consumers.

[bailey1987]

Originally Posted by Dex Robinson

Every time I see another one of these announcements, I think, "Great...but shouldn't I have been reading this 18 months ago"?

These things are full of "...working on the development...software for testing ...feedback during the development phase...".

It always sounds like there are a lot of people showing up for focus groups, brainstorming sessions and meetings. At this point, I'm primarily interested in announcements about actual players and discs being made available to consumers.

I couldn't agree more

[bailey1987]

Originally Posted by jeff_rigby

Yup, what can you do if you are under NDA and a reporter puts you on the spot? If you follow the article, Ito after being asked if the PS4 will support UHD Blu-ray states the drive can't support it. The reporter asks if he is lying and he says HEVC is not in the PS4 and then when asked if a future version will support UHD Blu-ray he comes up with a PS4.1 might have it.

Ito's statement was picked up as supporting the Netflix/Forbes article that they were told the first version of the PS4 couldn't support Netflix 4K but a version at the end of the year could. Ito is not talking about the newer PS4 but a more powerful PS4.1 to come out sometime later.

I have said before that may fat PS3 from about 2007 couldn't do much other than read a Blu-ray disc, fast forward to now and that same model can do everything Blu-ray can offer. My point is that despite Sony saying one thing or another I have heard it all before, but once all was said and done eventually my fat PS3 could do everything they said it never would be able to do.

[bailey1987]

Question. Does anyone know if they standardise the artwork used in the cases of Blu-ray/Ultra HD Blu-ray discs?

Such things as colour profile and DPI? are there any white papers for previous formats or even Ultra HD Blu-ray on this subject?

Thanks for the help.

[sonicyogurt]

Originally Posted by bailey1987

I have said before that may fat PS3 from about 2007 couldn't do much other than read a Blu-ray disc, fast forward to now and that same model can do everything Blu-ray can offer.

That's not really true. In fact, the PS3 was so fully-featured as a Blu-ray player early on that the Criterion Collection used it as their reference player when they dove into Blu-ray in 2008.

I wouldn't say it's fair to count features like the 2.0 profile update the PS3 got in 2008 since it was basically leading the BD-Live front. I don't recall Sony ever calling that impossible before the update was made available.

The only thing I can think of along the lines you're suggesting is 3D playback. Basic 3D playback came really quickly; I can't remember Sony ever saying that was impossible and then delivering it anyway. It did take nearly a year after that to be able to watch movies in 3D with lossless audio.

I guess I'm wondering specifically what you're referring to, and it'd be nice to see quotes from Sony folks saying that these multiple features you're referring to wouldn't be possible to deliver.

[halon]

So am I understanding that there will be no movies or players this coming holiday season and has been pushed to early 2016?

[dvdmike]

Originally Posted by halon

So am I understanding that there will be no movies or players this coming holiday season and has been pushed to early 2016?

Yup and most in Japan only