4K Blu-ray Confirmed, Coming in

[raygendreau]

Originally Posted by rdodolak

But even if your player was able to download and store the key, at some point in the past, if you ever get a new player that player would also need to connect to a server to download the title key again. If that functionality goes away, some point in the future, and the new player can't download the key then the player won't play the content regardless as to whether or not all of the content (i.e. movies, features, audio, subtitles, etc.) is on the disc. This is quite different from the BD-Live concept.

The proposal does say 2.0 enhanced will download and store the key on the player, so no internet connection required to play the disc after that unless you want to use DBEF.

If a player is replaced, then it is reasonable that internet access would be required to transfer the key or acquire a new key through a delete and add new device process.

[FilmFreakosaurus]

Originally Posted by raygendreau

The proposal does say 2.0 enhanced will download and store the key on the player, so no internet connection required to play the disc after that unless you want to use DBEF.

If a player is replaced, then it is reasonable that internet access would be required to transfer the key or acquire a new key through a delete and add new device process.

But when a particular key server goes dark or a rights issue pops up... that's when some of your collection (that you paid good money for) goes POOF!

That's the troubling part.

[HeavyHitter]

Originally Posted by rdodolak

But even if your player was able to download and store the key, at some point in the past, if you ever get a new player that player would also need to connect to a server to download the title key again. If that functionality goes away, some point in the future, and the new player can't download the key then the player won't play the content regardless as to whether or not all of the content (i.e. movies, features, audio, subtitles, etc.) is on the disc. This is quite different from the BD-Live concept.

Yep and for most if not all enthusiasts who would buy UHD BD, it's not if you would get a new player, but when. How many damn Blu-rays players have most of us been through already? Manufacturers are always going to have reasons for the consumer to want or need to "upgrade" to a new player.

Just another bright, huge red waving flag regarding authentication.

[HeavyHitter]

Originally Posted by raygendreau

If a player is replaced, then it is reasonable that internet access would be required to transfer the key or acquire a new key through a delete and add new device process.

I can only imagine the issues with that - not to mention what happens if the format is no longer supported? I hope no one is really naive enough to believe that a studio is going to continue support for a deceased home video format.

[raygendreau]

Originally Posted by HeavyHitter

I can only imagine the issues with that - not to mention what happens if the format is no longer supported? I hope no one is really naive enough to believe that a studio is going to continue support for a deceased home video format.

If UBD fails, it won't matter. You can expect new BD players and BDs to have the same authentication requirements if those leaked proposals are adopted in the final BDA specification. Just hope it remains optional rather than mandatory.

[rdodolak]

Originally Posted by raygendreau

If UBD fails, it won't matter. You can expect new BD players and BDs to have the same authentication requirements if those leaked proposals are adopted in the final BDA specification. Just hope it remains optional rather than mandatory.

I doubt it as BD is already out of the gate so it would be hard to change its specs going forward since it's already out of the gate. The information the BDA is currently considering is for UHD BD and not BD. Do you really think the studios are that stupid to force all current BD adopters to purchase a new player just to play new BD releases?

[raygendreau]

I doubt that there will be many UBD releases in the first couple of years, given the adoption rate of UHD displays. The research I have read show it going mainstream in 5 to 7 years with penetration at 33% by 2020.

[HarcourtMudd]

Originally Posted by octagon

Didn't we already do this? "I'm not talking about the copy you just bought, I'm talking about the next copy"? Does that ring any bells?

You are right.... my apologies. That's what happens when a) certain DRM rumors have really gotten me up in arms, and b) I post too early in the morning before I am completely awake....

[raygendreau]

Originally Posted by rdodolak

I doubt it as BD is already out of the gate so it would be hard to change its specs going forward since it's already out of the gate. The information the BDA is currently considering is for UHD BD and not BD. Do you really think the studios are that stupid to force all current BD adopters to purchase a new player just to play new BD releases?

Look at the chart on pg 3 of this proposal:

https://wikileaks.org/sony/docs/05/d...dline.pptx.pdf

No one will be forced to buy a new player and you will have the option of buying a non UHD BD player for many years.

[rdodolak]

Originally Posted by raygendreau

Look at the chart on pg 3 of this proposal:

https://wikileaks.org/sony/docs/05/d...dline.pptx.pdf

No one will be forced to buy a new player and you will have the option of buying a non UHD BD player for many years.

But you mentioned the following:

Originally Posted by raygendreau

You can expect new BD players and BDs to have the same authentication requirements if those leaked proposals are adopted in the final BDA specification.

If that actually happens with standard BD and new BD, not UHD BD, titles are released without a title key how would old BD players obtain said key when they're not compatible with this new technology? The only other option in that scenario is to obtain a new, compatible, BD player.

EDIT: Digital Bridge (i.e. making a digital copy) is different than a physical disc not having a title key which enables a player to play a physical disc.

[raygendreau]

Originally Posted by rdodolak

But you mentioned the following:



If that actually happens with standard BD and new BD, not UHD BD, titles are released without a title key how would old BD players obtain said key when they're not compatible with this new technology? The only other option in that scenario is to obtain a new, compatible, BD player.

EDIT: Digital Bridge (i.e. making a digital copy) is different than a physical disc not having a title key which enables a player to play a physical disc.

This won't be instantaneous. One day you can buy a BD player, the next day your only alternative is a UHD player. The phaseover will probably follow the same pattern that DVD players did as people adopted BD players. And, in both cases, there is backward compatibility. You will still be able to play your existing collection on a new UBD player. In fact, you will probably be able to play DVDs as well.

Once the standards are set, you will continue to see BDs without DB released and you won't need on line authentication to play them.

I think that the new technology will be adopted, in fact embraced, by the average HE consumer, since it will apply to digital delivery of purchases as well as physical. It is all about convenience, and always will be for the majority of consumers.

[rdodolak]

Originally Posted by raygendreau

This won't be instantaneous. One day you can buy a BD player, the next day your only alternative is a UHD player. The phaseover will probably follow the same pattern that DVD players did as people adopted BD players. And, in both cases, there is backward compatibility. You will still be able to play your existing collection on a new UBD player. In fact, you will probably be able to play DVDs as well.

Once the standards are set, you will continue to see BDs without DB released and you won't need on line authentication to play them.

I think that the new technology will be adopted, in fact embraced, by the average HE consumer, since it will apply to digital delivery of purchases as well as physical. It is all about convenience, and always will be for the majority of consumers.

Well sure, UHD BD players will be compatible and play standard BD titles. I'm not so convinced standard BD players will disappear any time soon. Just look at DVD, standard DVD players are still readily available 9 years after the introduction of BD. I'm not saying it can't happen but I think it's less likely to happen.

However, what does DB have to do with online key delivery?

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by FilmFreakosaurus

I have, yes.

I see that now (I don’t read the speeches, I just quickly view the data).

One way or another…whether it be yay or nay….voting is good . As an aside, I notice the UHD Blu-ray Disc Authentication Poll is slowly approaching twice that of the observer participation study group for the Dolby experiment used to ascertain viewer preference in regards to HDR…..https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...34#post8498218

[AudioWarrior]

When will the first 4k Blu-ray start showing up? Someone said November, so I don't know if that's true?


Also, Is it true all future 4k Blu-rays will need an online authentication and can only be played on one device?

[spectre08]

Originally Posted by AudioWarrior

When will the first 4k Blu-ray start showing up? Someone said November, so I don't know if that's true?


Also, Is it true all future 4k Blu-rays will need an online authentication and can only be played on one device?

nobody knows either of these things yet, it's all speculation right now.

[Anthony P]

Originally Posted by octagon

We're not talking about Faustian Bargains here. Faust had to give up something that was his. In this case we might - repeat might - be faced with 'giving up' something that isn't ours to begin with: namely, the 'right' to do whatever we want with the next copy of Lawrence of Arabia we purchase.

Don't get me wrong, I'm as big a control freak as the next guy. I hope studios will continue to sell what are essentially transferable lifetime licenses. But I don't feel entitled to such a license.

you are right this is much worst. The issue is that you don't get it. You are giving up something gng that is yours, your hard earned money, and you can't be sure you will get something in return, being able to watch the film. Itr is like the Target and DL example, When Target dropped their DL service , if you rented a copy and had not seen it (don't know how that works) you only had until the day the plug was pulled to watch it, if you bought a copy and it was on cinema now you could continue watching it if you transfer your copy to cinema now and the title was available on that platform, but if not then you could not watch it anymore even if you bought it the day before.

This is the issue that guys like you are missing. I can go to Amazon.com type in VHS and then click movies and it comes back with 400 pages of titles. Do you believe that if VHS had such a scheme and I wanted to buy that VHS movie today that the server would be there to authenticate that VHS copy I bought today?

Stores buy inventory from studios and they (more or less) just keep it for ever because it was paid for.

It is not just a format issue and it only matters once the format is dead. Look at Gladiator on BD. There was a messed up Paramount BD in 2011, then a bit later Paramount re-released an un-messed up version and then in 2013 Warner got the rights and re-released a BD. Now imagine there might be a store out there somewhere with all three BD versions (or that does not have the newer Warner version. All those three versions will have a different title key. If the three keys are on the server and they are still available, then it is all moot, but what if Paramount pulled their key when they released the "corrected version" or if WB said "I am the one with the rights now and not Paramount so pull both those paramount BD title keys from the server. What if the guy buys the wrong title from the shelf, he now brings it home and it won't play.

You don't think you should be able to feel "entitled" to watch the copy of the film you just bought and not just an over priced coaster?

[Coenskubrick]

People are just being very vocal about it so that any market research on predicted consumer response will find a very clear and statistically verified answer. It might change nothing, but it could contribute to it not going into action when it might potentially have otherwise.

[Anthony P]

Originally Posted by octagon

Well, that depends on what you mean by 'OK with it'.

I would be less inclined to buy UHD-BDs that required some sort of authorization and/or limited duration license.

OK

I would not, however, indignantly pound any tables or cry 'Don't Thread on Me' if copyright holders decide to go that route. Sony is under no obligation to provide me with any kind of access to Lawrence of Arabia and they would be well within their rights to put limits on whatever access they do offer.

I don't have to like those limits but Lawrence of Arabia belongs to them, not to me.

agree that they can do what they want, but so can we. This is a discussion forum if you have an issue with people discussing stuff maybe you are in the wrong place. What is wrong with people discussing why they won't buy something? Truth be told this is probably the perfect time to do so. Once a format is released it is too late and at that point you just use it or you don't , now (if the BDA is smart enough) they can listen to what their potential customers have to say and tweak the final specs (if it makes sense).

[Anthony P]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Yup, that's the twisted irony behind all of the inevitable chest-beating about rights and ownership and all that jazz. If folks boycott UHD BD then all of the doomsday scenarios that they're talking about will surely come to pass because UHD will be delivered exclusively online. And not only will all of those passionately-defended rights disappear into the ether, we'll get UHD content at much lower bitrates than on disc and it'll be subject to things like local internet speeds, download caps etc. There won't be one unified UHD service either, we'll probably have to sign up to a variety of providers to get all the content from all the studios. Can't ****ing wait.

who will lose out? me? no I will still see the films. The studio? for sure. I spend several thousands a year on films, because I can buy a copies and I choose to do so (because I see a lot of value in being able to see what I want , when I want at the quality I want). If the only option is to lease a copy (or steal a copy) why would I spend 50$+ a week when I can spend under 20$ a month?

Why do you think revenue is plummeting so fast? if it was as simple as "because people are not buying DVDs" then they would be buying BDs or DCs and the revenue would be increasing, it is because people that are going digital just rent instead and at 8$ a month it is good for the consumer that wants to save money butt it is a big loss in revenue to the studio.

[Anthony P]

Originally Posted by reanimator

I'll go you one further. If the studios stop backing UHD-BD, it will only be a matter of time before they withdraw support for regular BD as well. The collapse of UHD-BD would likely be the beginning of the end for ALL physical media.

that makes no sense what so ever.

SACD and DVD-A passed away a long time ago but CD has not died. The reality is the opposite, if something new and better comes along an people switch to it, that is what kills the older format.