4K Blu-ray Confirmed, Coming in

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by bruceames.

I knew I would be a prime target after my Friday outburst, but I don't have that multi-quote debating mindset, so I'll just let it go.

Uh...what? How many Anthony's do we have up in here?

Oh, wait. You mean a prime target for Anthony? We've all been there. It's like a badge of honour.

[raygendreau]

Originally Posted by bruceames.

I agree the UHD BD digital bridge feature needs to add convenience over and beyond what BLu-ray (and DVD) offers now. And that doesn't mean having to have the disc in the tray after you copy it to your (likely internal) hard drive.

The DB needs to work also with internet downloads and ideally rentals as well (for those who want greater quality than streaming, they can download a higher bit rate movie and watch it later.)

“S&V:” Can you explain UHD BD’s “digital bridge” option?”
RM: “Final details are still being worked out, but there are two significant elements. The first will allow the content stored on the Blu-ray Disc to be exported and played on authorized devices such as tablets, media players, or smart televisions”.[This option would require the disc to be in the player drive. In the AACS proposal, this is referred to as “Bound Copy” In this case, I believe the content would be streamed to mobile devices or a smart tv in another room.]

“The second will enable high-definition content stored on a “digital bridge-enabled” Blu-ray Disc to be copied onto local storage media, such as a hard drive in the player or an external drive connected to the player. This will create a digital copy that is bound to the player and allows for a localized library of the consumer’s favorite and most-often-played titles to be stored in the player.” [This option does not require the disc in the drive, but the player must be connected to the external storage if that is where the content is stored in SFF. It allows content to be exported as well without the disc in the drive. AACS refers to this as “Device Binding”

RM didn’t mention the other two options “Media Binding” and “Domain Binding” which were covered in the early proposals. Media Binding was for copying to flash memory (SeeQVault?) for use on mobile devices. Domain Binding covers uploading content to something like your UV collection on VUDU.” BDA was working with DECE and SCSA, so I doubt that these options were dropped.

The options offered will be up to the content providers.

The BDA BOD had voted unanimously to make DB mandatory on UHD BD, but there were some issues about that with the AACS according to the BOD 45 Final Report. Not sure about new BDs after the spec is final, but probably optional.
http://www.soundandvision.com/conten...u-gets-upgrade

I'm sure DB will apply to digital downloads. I don't see any reason why it could not apply to rentals. I don't recall reading anything in the proposals about it.

I wonder if you will be able to use your FMP-x10 for DB?

[bruceames]

Originally Posted by raygendreau

“S&V:” Can you explain UHD BD’s “digital bridge” option?”
RM: “Final details are still being worked out, but there are two significant elements. The first will allow the content stored on the Blu-ray Disc to be exported and played on authorized devices such as tablets, media players, or smart televisions”.[This option would require the disc to be in the player drive. In the AACS proposal, this is referred to as “Bound Copy” In this case, I believe the content would be streamed to mobile devices or a smart tv in another room.]

“The second will enable high-definition content stored on a “digital bridge-enabled” Blu-ray Disc to be copied onto local storage media, such as a hard drive in the player or an external drive connected to the player. This will create a digital copy that is bound to the player and allows for a localized library of the consumer’s favorite and most-often-played titles to be stored in the player.” [This option does not require the disc in the drive, but the player must be connected to the external storage if that is where the content is stored in SFF. It allows content to be exported as well without the disc in the drive. AACS refers to this as “Device Binding”

RM didn’t mention the other two options “Media Binding” and “Domain Binding” which were covered in the early proposals. Media Binding was for copying to flash memory (SeeQVault?) for use on mobile devices. Domain Binding covers uploading content to something like your UV collection on VUDU.” BDA was working with DECE and SCSA, so I doubt that these options were dropped.

The options offered will be up to the content providers.

The BDA BOD had voted unanimously to make DB mandatory on UHD BD, but there were some issues about that with the AACS according to the BOD 45 Final Report. Not sure about new BDs after the spec is final, but probably optional.
http://www.soundandvision.com/conten...u-gets-upgrade

I'm sure DB will apply to digital downloads. I don't see any reason why it could not apply to rentals. I don't recall reading anything in the proposals about it.

I wonder if you will be able to use your FMP-x10 for DB?

That second option was the one I was referring to. Hopefully by "high definition" that he means 1:1 UHD copy. But if the disc is not bound to the player, then how can it not be used in someone else's player without online authentication?

I hope DB can be used in the X10, but I'm not too optimistic given Sony's indifference to the player.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by bruceames.

I knew I would be a prime target after my Friday outburst, but I don't have that multi-quote debating mindset, so I'll just let it go.

Hey, I like Anthony, he keeps all you guys on your toes.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by raygendreau

“S&V:” Can you explain UHD BD’s “digital bridge” option?”

Ray, it’s good to see you’ve developed a new hobby…from intensive internet researching everything about OLED displays….to internet researching DB. I like the diversity, but we’re still holding you to your promise as to purchasing an OLED tv by the end of 2016. No ifs, ands or butts

[raygendreau]

Originally Posted by bruceames.

That second option was the one I was referring to. Hopefully by "high definition" that he means 1:1 UHD copy. But if the disc is not bound to the player, then how can it not be used in someone else's player without online authentication?

I hope DB can be used in the X10, but I'm not too optimistic given Sony's indifference to the player.

From the proposals, it is a bit for bit copy including extras.

As I understand it, nothing prevents you from selling the disc or using it in another player. AACS 2.0a would require on line authentication and a new download title key. Once that happens, it is likely that the license to play the disc in the original player would be revoked and you would no longer have access to DB export or the SFF in storage bound to the original device.

In other words, the AACS server would revoke the license for that title on the original bound device once it receives the request for a new title key from the new owner or different player. Don't hold me to it, but that's how I think it will work.

So, loan it to someone and when they return it and you put it in your player, the process begins again with on-line authentication and the download of a new title key.

[bruceames]

Originally Posted by raygendreau

From the proposals, it is a bit for bit copy including extras.

As I understand it, nothing prevents you from selling the disc or using it in another player. AACS 2.0a would require on line authentication and a new download title key. Once that happens, it is likely that the license to play the disc in the original player would be revoked and you would no longer have access to DB export or the SFF in storage bound to the original device.

In other words, the AACS server would revoke the license for that title on the original bound device once it receives the request for a new title key from the new owner or different player. Don't hold me to it, but that's how I think it will work.

So, loan it to someone and when they return it and you put it in your player, the process begins again with on-line authentication and the download of a new title key.

So, according to that document, it sounds like internet authentication would be required for any UHD disc inserted for the first time in any player, or, if the disc is bound to another player after being bound to the original one.

It also appears that registration would not be required, and that authentication will be nearly instantaneous and an invisible process (which would automatically disable any downloads on another player at the same time. The downloads would always need to be authenticated, while discs could be played off line after being authenticated (bound) after the first time.

Since disc registration would not be required, then you could sell or trade discs just like BD or DVD.

Regarding the possibility of servers going down, my experience with the X10 is that Sony allows you access to your owned (downloaded) movies. So my guess is that this would apply to any server outage (on their end) for UHD BD as well.

Anyway, that's what I gather from it so far.

[FilmFreakosaurus]

Originally Posted by bruceames.

So, according to that document, it sounds like internet authentication would be required for any UHD disc inserted for the first time in any player, or, if the disc is bound to another player after being bound to the original one.

It also appears that registration would not be required, and that authentication will be nearly instantaneous and an invisible process (which would automatically disable any downloads on another player at the same time. The downloads would always need to be authenticated, while discs could be played off line after being authenticated (bound) after the first time.

Since disc registration would not be required, then you could sell or trade discs just like BD or DVD.

Regarding the possibility of servers going down, my experience with the X10 is that Sony allows you access to your owned (downloaded) movies. So my guess is that this would apply to any server outage (on their end) for UHD BD as well.

Anyway, that's what I gather from it so far.

And when the server goes dark and you buy a new player... that's when the "fun" begins.

Best not to let this happen for disc based media to begin with.

Slippery slope territory.

[bruceames]

Originally Posted by FilmFreakosaurus

And when the server goes dark and you buy a new player... that's when the "fun" begins.

Best not to let this happen for disc based media to begin with.

Slippery slope territory.

I think it should be possible to transfer the title keys from one player to another. And like I said, my experience with X10 on 4K downloads, is that when the server went down I could still play my downloads. In other words, the internet requirement is automatically disabled if the server goes down. You just can't access new content online (obviously). I have the downloads stored on the internal drive, but if it were an external (up to 4 TB), then I could connect it to any X10 player in the house.

[Dynamo of Eternia]

Originally Posted by bruceames.

That second option was the one I was referring to. Hopefully by "high definition" that he means 1:1 UHD copy. But if the disc is not bound to the player, then how can it not be used in someone else's player without online authentication?

I hope DB can be used in the X10, but I'm not too optimistic given Sony's indifference to the player.

I've said it before and I'll say it again... if they allow the format to work in such a way that the movie, via authentication, can be exported, but still allow the movie to be watched directly from the disc without authentication...

1. With the sole exception of the UHD digital copy and the on-disc movie (theoretically) being of the same quality, it won't be much different than combo packs now that give you anywhere from 2 to 4 copies of the same movie in one box set. There are packs that include the regular BD, DVD Digital Copy, and/or 3D BD. People can easily lend out or sell off whichever of those things they don't care about.

2. If they make the disc a requirement to re-establish the digital copy should the player or HDD thst it is tied to stop working, then it will require that people keep the discs for that reason. They may still be able to lend them out, but they won't want to sell them if they want ongoing access to the movie.

3. As sort of a variation of #2, if each disc can somehow hae a unique key built into the disc, they could still allow the disc to be played in any compatiblke player, but have it set up so that if someone has that disc and uses it to make a new digital copy tied to another player, it disables the original digital copy on the original player. This will make it so that people will want to be very careful about if and to whom they lend out their discs.

There's plenty that they can do to detour abuse while giving the buyer reasonable freedom and assurance of long term access to the content, even if the powers that be decide to stop supporting UHD BD.

[SeffBlu]

Go 4K!

[bailey1987]

Originally Posted by bruceames.

Yeah that makes sense (just like you can watch BDs on a SDTV), although I don't think many people will use UHD BD players with 1080 HDTVs.

I plan on keeping my Kuro until there is a reference display that has all the goodness that Ultra HD brings(better pixels).

Originally Posted by raygendreau

Look at this from a marketing perspective. Little value is added with the increased resolution from HD to UHD. The hope is that there will be sufficient increase in perceived value from the addition of HDR and the convenience of the Digital Bridge to cause the Average Home Entertainment Consumer to purchase a UHD BD player. The AHEC, faced with a high cost of entry, (need to replace display, player and AVR for UHD+HDR) is highly unlikely to adopt UHD BD at a rate that comes anywhere near the adoption of BD, which, after nearly 10 years is not that noteworthy.

HD TV was introduced in 1999, six years before Blu-ray in 2006. By 2006, there were around 40 million HD households (80 million units). For UHD TV, introduced a couple of years ago, the forecast is for around 4 million units for 2015. That is not a very favorable environment for the UHD BD intro perhaps later this year or in 2016.

To prevent UHD BD from arriving DOA, you have to offer a reasonable transition for the AHEC whose prime motivation for upgrading to a UHD TV is the convenience of accessing streaming and downloading of UHD content currently available from Netflix, Amazon, Sony and others.

Manufacturers need to produce HD TVs capable of processing and displaying HDR and, as planned, Digital Bridge Export Function needs to apply to digital downloads from the internet. That is about the only way you will get the AHEC to buy a BD+HDR disc and offer an easier pathway for the adoption of UHD BD+HDR, since this functionality will only reside in the future UHD BD player and not current BD players.

I see no other way to entice the AHEC to make his first UHD purchase a UHD BD player rather than a UHD display. If that is what the BDA has in mind by offering BD+HDR, UHD, UHD+HDR with down conversion to HD, it has merit, in my opinion.

https://www.ce.org/News/News-Release...dustry-Re.aspx

http://coax.tv/EXEC_NAB2014.pdf

Many of the people that bought HD TV's between 1999 & 2006 may still be using them, the chances are that they bought an overly priced 720p plasma thinking that the next generation discs would be no more than 720p if these people didn't see 3D TV's as a prime opportunity to buy a new TV then maybe Ultra HD will persuade them to buy a new one.

I can't believe the number of households was 40 million, for these 40 million HD must have been more of an headache than it was for me not only did they sit with an expensive low specification TV but they had to endure a format war which if they bought either format they may have ended up with the wrong one which further added to the expense in the end they may have had that TV close to a decade before there was anything worth watching on it, by the time 3D came along they will probably already have overspent into the thousands even if they had a Blu-ray player all along. My point is many may see Ultra HD as a perfect opportunity to get rid of that brick of a TV they have had for years without the risk of a format war.

[bailey1987]

Here's something from the Hollywood reporter http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/beh...ay-spec-794961
Apparently the spec is finished


The above image can be found here apparently its provided by the bdahttp://www.usatoday.com/story/tech/2...tion/27155765/

Consumer electronics makers will be able to license the technical spec starting in July.
The Blu-ray Disc Association has completed an Ultra HD Blu-ray technical specification that will lead to the release of players and discs that support the new format. Manufacturers will be able to license Ultra HD Blu-Ray beginning in July and, presumably, consumer products will begin to roll out later in the year.

The format supports Ultra HD 4K TV resolution (3840x2160), as well as enables high dynamic range (HDR), high frame rates and object-based immersive sound. HDR—a wider range between the whitest whites and blackest blacks—could either be delivered using the BDA-developed “BD HDR” portion of the new spec or by using certain supported HDR formats such as Dolby Vision.

[bruceames]

Originally Posted by bailey1987

I can't believe the number of households was 40 million, for these 40 million HD must have been more of an headache than it was for me not only did they sit with an expensive low specification TV but they had to endure a format war which if they bought either format they may have ended up with the wrong one which further added to the expense in the end they may have had that TV close to a decade before there was anything worth watching on it, by the time 3D came along they will probably already have overspent into the thousands even if they had a Blu-ray player all along. My point is many may see Ultra HD as a perfect opportunity to get rid of that brick of a TV they have had for years without the risk of a format war.

Blu-ray was actually overdue when it was launched, since HDTVs had been out for quite a few years (commonly sold in stores since 1999). On the other hand, 4K TVs have only been out a couple of years. However they are selling really fast (although of course penetration won't be at the same level). Anyway, there's going to be no comparison between market levels of UHD BD and BD (and especially DVD), and at best UHD BD will end up being around half of Blu-ray itself. Partly because quality isn't that important to most people, and partly because digital is more convenient and as a result, consumers are transitioning there. On the other hand, 4K TVs will become the norm in a few years in stores, just like HDTV become.

[bailey1987]

I notice all the press releases say the digital bridge is optional
http://www.businesswire.com/news/hom...;#.VVIOTXlwZSA

From business wire
Additionally, with the optional digital bridge feature, the specification enhances the value of content ownership by embracing the notion that a content purchase can enable the consumer to view their content across the range of in-home and mobile devices.

[Dylan34]

Originally Posted by bruceames.

Blu-ray was actually overdue when it was launched, since HDTVs had been out for quite a few years (commonly sold in stores since 1999). On the other hand, 4K TVs have only been out a couple of years. However they are selling really fast (although of course penetration won't be at the same level). Anyway, there's going to be no comparison between market levels of UHD BD and BD (and especially DVD), and at best UHD BD will end up being around half of Blu-ray itself. Partly because quality isn't that important to most people, and partly because digital is more convenient and as a result, consumers are transitioning there. On the other hand, 4K TVs will become the norm in a few years in stores, just like HDTV become.

DVD should have been scrapped altogether IMO. With HDTV's hitting the market in 1998, it should have went from VHS and Laserdisc to some type of HD format from start.

[Geoff D]

Given the space underneath the Ultra HD part I wonder if that's where the HDR logo will go, next to the 'Blu-ray' bit? I also wonder if they've reached a consensus that HDR will be the actual branded name for that tech, given how the BDA 45 meeting revealed their concerns that a fair bit of confusion might result from the 'HD' part of the HDR initialism. Still, I think it's obvious by now (nearly a year after said meeting, though there have been others since) that there's no real confusion over what HDR is compared to UHD.

[bailey1987]

Onkyo look set to deliver

From Twice:
http://www.twice.com/news/receivers/...hdmi-20a/57128
Onkyo plans June shipments of its first two AVRs to support two object-based surround formats: Dolby Atmos and DTS:X. DTS:X will be available as a firmware upgrade sometime later this year. The TX-NR646, due in early June at a suggested $699, and the TX-NR747, due in late June at a suggested of $999, will also be the brand’s first AVRs with HDMI 2.0a inputs and outputs, which pass through high dynamic range (HDR) video formats to a compatible TV. Both are networked 7.2-channel models that support a 5.1.2 Dolby Atmos or DTS:X speaker configuration. An outboard amp can’t be added to support a 5.1.4 speaker configuration, a spokesperson said. Both models also feature HDCP 2.2 copy protection on three of eight HDMI inputs and both HDMI outputs to pass through copy-protected UltraHD 4K video from future 4K IP set-top boxes and 4K Blu-ray players to 4K TVs equipped with HDCP 2.2. The AVRs are also the company’s first with HDMI/HDCP2.2 inputs and outputs that support full-bandwidth 18Gbps HDMI instead of 10.2Gbps HDMI. The change enables the AVRs to pass through 4K video at 60fps with 4:4:4 color sampling, a step up from 4:2:0 color sampling. - See more at: http://www.twice.com/news/receivers/....HGkhTIYe.dpuf

Shame about the number of channels I want the full atmos effect.

[PeterTHX]

Originally Posted by Dylan34

DVD should have been scrapped altogether IMO. With HDTV's hitting the market in 1998, it should have went from VHS and Laserdisc to some type of HD format from start.

1999-2000 was when DVD really started hitting the bigtime. The PS2 put the format over the top.


Blue laser tech was nowhere ready for that kind of mass market.


The earliest BDs were in caddies. The processing power of the 2006 players were weak, with the exception of the PS3 (discs took forever to just load).


PCs were just getting the ability to play DVDs well. Early DVD decoding needed outboard chipset or maxed out processing.


The timing was right for an HD format in the early 2000s, but technology wasn't there.

[Geoff D]

Excellent, the full-fat HDMI chips with HDCP 2.2 are FINALLY starting to trickle out.