4K Blu-ray Confirmed, Coming in

[saprano]

Originally Posted by dubious

Who has said they are not? Having support for 1080p down-scaling in the player outputs sounds like a fairly simple solution given the required processing power to process 2160p content to begin with.

They are?

I've been of the belief that nothing was compatible with 1080p devices.

[dubious]

Originally Posted by saprano

They are?

I've been of the belief that nothing was compatible with 1080p devices.

That'd really be the death of the format before it's even in the stores if it was the case.

Theoretically, while not an official standard, PC HDMI or DVI>HDMI links have supported 1080p 4:4:4 (full chroma) when the TV supports 4:4:4 (usually set to PC mode). If such a UHD player were to support to 1080p 4:4:4 signals then you would be getting an output much more comparable to 2K DCP (digital cinema), a full chroma format. "2K" blu-ray is actually only "2K" luma (black and white data) while chroma (color) is half resolution "1K" (960x540). "4K" UHD is a similar spec in which you get "4K" luma, and "2K" chroma.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by PeterTHX

Really?

Next they will have Putin as guest speaker on Ukrainian Independence Day.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by dubious

That'd really be the death of the format before it's even in the stores if it was the case.....

Good thinking.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DfGs...utu.be&t=1m36s

Update for Dex and Sap, a product launch by Christmas is back on track.

[bailey1987]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Exactly what I was thinking, where has it been said they're not compatible? In fact I remember reading in one of the leaked proposal documents that if HDCP 2.2 is not detected in the chain then the player will downscale the output to 1080p anyway, i.e. connect it to a regular HDTV and it'll work fine.

I hope they do as it Is what I hope to do this Christmas, ideally the player will sniff out the best you can do and scale to it.

[2themax]

In case anyone wants to dig...

http://www.blu-raydisc.com/en/Techni...ers/BDROM.aspx

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by dubious

That'd really be the death of the format before it's even in the stores if it was the case.

Theoretically, while not an official standard, PC HDMI or DVI>HDMI links have supported 1080p 4:4:4 (full chroma) when the TV supports 4:4:4 (usually set to PC mode). If such a UHD player were to support to 1080p 4:4:4 signals then you would be getting an output much more comparable to 2K DCP (digital cinema), a full chroma format. "2K" blu-ray is actually only "2K" luma (black and white data) while chroma (color) is half resolution "1K" (960x540). "4K" UHD is a similar spec in which you get "4K" luma, and "2K" chroma.

You're not the first person I've heard say that about full res 2K colour coming off of a downscaled 4K image, and the theory is fine (though technically 4:2:0 colour is only a quarter of the luma resolution because it's halved in both axes) but will they bother putting such processing inside the UHD players? It'll need to extract the 4:2:0 chroma from the 2160p signal 'as is' before it hits the usual chroma upscaling paths and merge it with the downscaled 1080p luma information on the fly.

I'm not saying it's impossible (or even particularly difficult) but it would be far easier from the manufacturers' POV to implement a simple downscale of both the luma and chroma for the 1080p output. It'd be great if it happened though I don't know how we'd test for it (perhaps Messrs Spears & Munsil could put something on their inevitable 4K test disc?).

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by 2themax

In case anyone wants to dig...

http://www.blu-raydisc.com/en/Techni...ers/BDROM.aspx

Thanks for that, I noticed there's confirmation that the existing 50GB disc structure can also be used for UHD BD (as some of us have been saying), albeit with a reduced data rate.

Edit: it also mentions how the 33.4 layer tech has been appropriated from the BD-XL spec - that much was never in doubt - but for manufacturing those 66/100GB discs [as in actual BD-ROM retail pressings] "new technologies might be necessary".

[dubious]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

You're not the first person I've heard say that about full res 2K colour coming off of a downscaled 4K image, and the theory is fine (though technically 4:2:0 colour is only a quarter of the luma resolution because it's halved in both axes) but will they bother putting such processing inside the UHD players? It'll need to extract the 4:2:0 chroma from the 2160p signal 'as is' before it hits the usual chroma upscaling paths and merge it with the downscaled 1080p luma information on the fly.

I'm not saying it's impossible (or even particularly difficult) but it would be far easier from the manufacturers' POV to implement a simple downscale of both the luma and chroma for the 1080p output. It'd be great if it happened though I don't know how we'd test for it (perhaps Messrs Spears & Munsil could put something on their inevitable 4K test disc?).

It might not be a feature on every manufacturer's flagship, but I could see Oppo coming up with a way to do it.

Cost prohibitive, but then again, everyone wants their player to do everything nowdays out of the box, Netflix 4K with game console responsiveness... :

Then again, if you can afford an Oppo, you probably have a 4K TV... what the hell do I know, I'm a dubious source at best...

[Geoff D]

You're right, I could see the majors ignoring such a feature but Oppo may well implement it on their end, provided that re-engineering the image in such a way doesn't violate the copy protection. It may prove to be that such high quality downscaling would only be permitted when connected to a HDCP 2.2 display, which would invariably be 4K so what would be the point in downscaling the image to 1080p anyway?

Perhaps 1080p TVs with HDCP 2.2 that could accept - but obviously not display at full res - 2160p content might be a better bet, as once the image is decoded at the end display it can do all the scaling/processing voodoo that it wants.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Sorry for the downers P-Man, but the more I think about it the more it's apparent that this format's on a hiding to nothing.

Geoff, does all this current discussion mean you’re back interested in Ultra HD Blu-ray?, e.g. http://www.digitaltrends.com/home-th...es-and-titles/

Even if Ultra HD Blu-ray discs were to fail miserably out of the gate, I don’t think there’s denying the fact that the technical groups of the BDA did a yeoman’s job in bringing forth a pretty damn good spec set for next gen video .

P.S.
Good luck Sunday.

[Kris Deering]

Penton, you've gone on to say a lot about the benefits of 4K but I am still pondering how this is all going to go down considering the absolute dearth of true 4K content. Sure we're seeing more and more catalog titles being remastered for 4K from their film negatives but what about new releases? Last time I checked new release movies are what moves formats and gets people excited and I imagine that the bulk of the UHD Blu-ray launch titles will be new release movies. Looking at the top 20 highest grossing movies to hit theaters in 2015 I see exactly ONE title with a 4K DI.

So what should I think? Is Hollywood going to go back and do new 4K masters or are we going to see the majority of new titles as simply upconverts stamped as 4K? I realize this will change over time but with what seems like more and more titles only getting 2K masters regardless of their budget, why should I be excited about a format that will mainly have content that I could have upconverted to 4K on my own (HDR aside)?

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Kris Deering

...why should I be excited about a format that will mainly have content that I could have upconverted to 4K on my own (HDR aside)?

No fair, you just subtracted a big contributor as to why UHD BD content will shine. Kris, you can’t hang your hat mostly on spatial rez, be it native or upconverted, consider native 4K encoded source of future ‘top 20 highest grossing movies to hit theaters’ to be icing on the cake.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

...otherwise, contribute something constructive at IBC.

Like so -
http://www.ibc.org/seminar/IBC-Big-S...-Screening-TBA

[nec1912]

4K Blu-ray is officially on the way. According to Victor Matsuda, Chairman of the Blu-ray Disc Association Global Promotions Committee, the BDA expects the specs for 4K Blu-ray to be finalized in the first half of 2015,

What is the point!! There is so little 4K movies out there you be lucky to have small shelf of 20 movies top if that.

People are still waiting for star wars, matrix ,terminator ,predator, prometheus and alien so on in 4K.

[bailey1987]

Originally Posted by nec1912

What is the point!! There is so little 4K movies out there you be lucky to have small shelf of 20 movies top if that.

People are still waiting for star wars, matrix ,terminator ,predator, prometheus and alien so on in 4K.

Actually studios have stockpiles of 4K content , it's just a matter of whether people will be interested in it. Some films you would not think would be granted a 4K transfer. In my collection I can see at least one that has a 4K transfer knocking around it's called Graduation Day released by 88 films, it's a Troma film and we all know there an acquired taste.

[bailey1987]

Originally Posted by 2themax

In case anyone wants to dig...

http://www.blu-raydisc.com/en/Techni...ers/BDROM.aspx

After looking through them all I was surprised that the part that interested me most was this:

2.3.2.3 Download new Movie trailer

When the Content Provider that published the disc is launching a sequel to the Title, they may also choose to publish a trailer for the sequel on their website, specifically for holders of the current title. A BD-J application, present on the disc, can connect to this website and see if there is new content available. The BD-J application can inform the user that a trailer for the new sequel movie is available e.g. by showing a number of (JPEG) images in the Main Menu. After the user has selected to view the trailer, the BD-J application downloads this trailer, while at the same time showing some background information on the actors in this sequel. When the download of the trailer to the Binding Unit Data Area is completed, the application creates a new Virtual Package and plays it back, showing at the bottom of the screen the movie theatres where this movie can be seen.

I'm not kidding that really intrigued me lol.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Geoff, does all this current discussion mean you’re back interested in Ultra HD Blu-ray?, e.g. http://www.digitaltrends.com/home-th...es-and-titles/

Even if Ultra HD Blu-ray discs were to fail miserably out of the gate, I don’t think there’s denying the fact that the technical groups of the BDA did a yeoman’s job in bringing forth a pretty damn good spec set for next gen video .

P.S.
Good luck Sunday.

I love all this stuff because I'm a fiend for technical details but I'm still not sold on the format, not by a long shot. Disclaimer: I'd feel a bit better about it had my 2014 4K TV been compatible with either WCG or HDR content but to miss out on both and pay through the nose for a player and software just to get an SDR .709 mixdown - and potentially have to jump through those authentication hoops on top - has made me feel a lot more "meh" towards the whole thing.

PS

No luck needed, the points will be yours just like they always are.

[Kris Deering]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

No fair, you just subtracted a big contributor as to why UHD BD content will shine. Kris, you can’t hang your hat mostly on spatial rez, be it native or upconverted, consider native 4K encoded source of future ‘top 20 highest grossing movies to hit theaters’ to be icing on the cake.

HDR is definitely the most exciting prospect for me, though I seem to be in a longer holding pattern being a front projection man myself.

I also look at it from the prospective of authoring. As I mentioned most of this year's releases are 2K masters. I think we mentioned before about whether the studio should scale them to 4K or release them in 2K. Wouldn't it make EVERYTHING easier if they released in 2K with all the other benefits intact? Then a 66GB disc with a higher bitrate sounds like it has plenty of breathing room, compression shouldn't be a big deal at all, and you're not trying to cram what amounts to a lot of fake information into a small space. I imagine everything goes faster and smoother. Then have the player or the display scale to 4K. It just seems that if they just delivered the honest product the end results for overall PQ would have a far better chance of being the best they can be, especially early in the launch when the tools are still new and there are more limitations (triple layer availability, resolution of masters).