4K Blu-ray Confirmed, Coming in

[halon]

Originally Posted by dvdmike

Yup and most in Japan only

Well that's disappointing.

[KubrickKurasawa]

Originally Posted by halon

Well that's disappointing.

I think I read the 4k player being released by Panasonic next month if you convert the currency is like 3-4 thousand USD too

[Richard Paul]

Originally Posted by jeff_rigby

This does not mean that Intel Skylake and AMD Kaveri's UVD4.2 can't handle 10 bit HEVC DECODING.

Skylake just came out this year and while it has a fixed function HEVC decoder it is for 8-bit video.

Originally Posted by jeff_rigby

Cadence-Tensilica-Xtensa processors are custom designs with custom routines built from a library of hardware and software routines. Microsoft and Sony designed the Xtensa processors they use for the features they wanted to support.

They added what they could at the time that those chips were developed. It takes time to create a fixed function decoder for a new video standard.

Originally Posted by jeff_rigby

This makes Ito's comments about the PS4 not having a UHD drive ignorance or miss-information.

My guess is that he was just being honest and that the Blu-ray drive used in the PS4 can't handle 3 layer discs.

[Dex Robinson]

Originally Posted by halon

So am I understanding that there will be no movies or players this coming holiday season and has been pushed to early 2016?

Let's wait and see. "Early" may be optimistic.

And I think Panasonic's UHD Blu-ray player for Japan is of questionable lineage as a player. From the description of the machine it seems to be a component of high-end home entertainment system with UHD Blu-ray as one of several listed functions. Perhaps I'm being unfairly skeptical but I get the sense that Panasonic was building this system and somebody said, "Hey, if we are charging $3000.00, let's take the kitchen sink approach and throw in a UHD Blu-ray capable drive". I think it's no so much Panasonics entry into the UHD Blu-ray player market as it is just something else to add to a big dollar system they are hoping to sell.

Yes, I know I'm being a stick in the mud but I'm getting weary after reading this thread for 13 months.

[jeff_rigby]

Originally Posted by Richard Paul

Skylake just came out this year and while it has a fixed function HEVC decoder it is for 8-bit video.

They added what they could at the time that those chips were developed. It takes time to create a fixed function decoder for a new video standard.

My guess is that he was just being honest and that the Blu-ray drive used in the PS4 can't handle 3 layer discs.

Again, the Xtensa processors used by AMD, XB1 and PS4 have a Xtensa controller CPU and up to 64 SEPARATE co-processor blocks that can have custom hardware to accelerate whatever is designed into the Xtensa DPU block on the ARM AXI buss. In addition it has it's own small RAM and ROM and supports NOC internally with uDMA controllers and externally on the ARM AXI buss with the ARM IOMMU Trustzone managed.

You are stuck on thinking it's a ASIC block designed for HEVC as are some of the hardware reviewers for Carrizo. Carrizo uses a Xtensa processor too but the newer version has power islands and more for efficiency. Kaveri's UVD 4.2 can't be turned off if it finishes decoding a frame while Carrizo's UVD 6 can.

AMD's Kaveri, Carrizo and the XB1 have a ARM block for low power and TEE that has the codecs, crypto engine, Player, IOMMU and CPU. Kaveri and Carrizo allow turning off the X-86 CPU and GNC GPU while still allowing the ARM parts to play full screen video. This is absolutely needed for low power when you have a large GPU (XB1) or for battery operation (Carrizo extends this to power island and register turn off to the UVD).

I'm not up on Skylake but it would be stupid to have a fixed function 8 bit ASIC HEVC codec as part of a CPU. In 2014 8 bit X265 (open source) HEVC software (NOT ASIC) was released to space save compress 1080P and lower resolutions. 10 bit HEVC code is I think just now being released.

Xtensa processors are being used in phones and tablets for Gesture and voice recognition as well as Codecs...same for the PS4, XB1, Kaveri, Carrizo and ALL AMD APUs. Those APUs before UVD 4 must also use the GPU. Kaveri's UVD does not need to use the GPU and supports HEVC. Carrizo also supports HEVC but with a 30% duty cycle.

FYI as there isn't a lot of info on hardware requirements for HEVC, it's recommended using a i7 Intel processor (4 CPUs 8 threads at about 2 GHz) for real time 10 bit HEVC. Xtensa IVP is 64 CPUs @ 350 Mhz; do the math and 64 CPUs @ 125 Mhz is all it would take if they have the same IPC....the Xtensa processors are about 3X what is needed. I realize there are many assumptions here but at least it gives an idea of what is possible.

The Xtensa processors run at 350 Mhz as that is the sweet spot for power efficiency.

[bailey1987]

Originally Posted by Richard Paul

Skylake just came out this year and while it has a fixed function HEVC decoder it is for 8-bit video.

They added what they could at the time that those chips were developed. It takes time to create a fixed function decoder for a new video standard.

My guess is that he was just being honest and that the Blu-ray drive used in the PS4 can't handle 3 layer discs.

if your wanting a HEVC decoder and encoder then I advise the Nvidia Geforce GTX 960 it has what you need and can handle 10bit video, anything in HEVC profile 1.

[dvdmike]

Skylake could brute force it thru software

[bailey1987]

Here's something: http://www.prweb.com/releases/2015/10/prweb13051416.htm

BluFocus Approved as First 'Ultra HD Blu-ray™' Test Center in North America

http://www.blufocus.com/uhdqualification/

So they have only just started to test them...

[PeterTHX]

Originally Posted by dvdmike

Skylake could brute force it thru software

Yeah, decoding shouldn't be that hard for a full-on modern Intel multicore x86 processor that is 2GHz or faster.


Encoding is where things get tough.

[dvdmike]

Originally Posted by PeterTHX

Yeah, decoding shouldn't be that hard for a full-on modern Intel multicore x86 processor that is 2GHz or faster.


Encoding is where things get tough.

You can brute force that also, I have been encoding in it all year

[bailey1987]

my i7 skylake has no problems with HEVC nor does the Nvidia Geforce 960. At least so far it hasn't, but I am under the impression that both are only good for HEVC profile 1, could be wrong though.

[PeterTHX]

Originally Posted by dvdmike

You can brute force that also, I have been encoding in it all year

In realtime? No artifacts?

[bailey1987]

I have just been looking at HEVC on Wikipedia, granted it was Wikipedia information so it's not likely to be accurate, but, has anyone else noticed how the number of frames per second that is possible at a resolution of 3,840×2,160 is not appropriate for what the BDA specification is? for example you can have the following frames per second at a resolution of 3,840×2,160:

3,840×2,160@32.0 (6)
3,840×2,160@64.0 (6)
3,840×2,160@128.0 (6)
3,840×2,160@128.0 (16)
3,840×2,160@256.0 (16)
3,840×2,160@300.0 (16)

So, the closest to 60fps is 64fps and the closest to 24fps is 32fps! So what's the plan?

The only way to get 60fps at Ultra HD quality is to use Level 5.1 at 4,096×2,160@60.0 (6), there's no way at all to get 24fps at any resolution.

Even if they stick with h.264 there's no option for 60fps or 24fps, choices are:

3,840×2,160@31.7 (5)
3,840×2,160@66.8 (5)

It's possible that another profile may arrive before the formats released, in this case it will be profile 4, my issue here is that profile 3 included 3D support so why not have 3D in there from launch?

[Richard Paul]

Originally Posted by jeff_rigby

Again, the Xtensa processors used by AMD, XB1 and PS4 have a Xtensa controller CPU and up to 64 SEPARATE co-processor blocks that can have custom hardware to accelerate whatever is designed into the Xtensa DPU block on the ARM AXI buss. In addition it has it's own small RAM and ROM and supports NOC internally with uDMA controllers and externally on the ARM AXI buss with the ARM IOMMU Trustzone managed.

Generally you get what you pay for and the simple DSP cores like the ones used in Xtensa would be incapable of handling most complicated processing tasks. It is similar to a GPU which can have hundreds/thousands of processing units but they are very limited in the tasks they can do. There is no evidence that Xtensa can do anything related to HEVC decoding.

Originally Posted by jeff_rigby

I'm not up on Skylake but it would be stupid to have a fixed function 8 bit ASIC HEVC codec as part of a CPU.

My guess is that at the time that Intel started to design the HEVC decoder for Skylake they thought that 8-bit decoding was a good idea and by the time they realized it was a mistake it was to late in the process to change it.

Originally Posted by jeff_rigby

FYI as there isn't a lot of info on hardware requirements for HEVC, it's recommended using a i7 Intel processor (4 CPUs 8 threads at about 2 GHz) for real time 10 bit HEVC. Xtensa IVP is 64 CPUs @ 350 Mhz; do the math and 64 CPUs @ 125 Mhz is all it would take if they have the same IPC....the Xtensa processors are about 3X what is needed. I realize there are many assumptions here but at least it gives an idea of what is possible.

Adding up the total GHz isn't really useful when it comes to CPU cores vs DSP cores. They are very different and it would be like comparing baby bunnies with full grown lions (they are both mammals but they are very different). There is a reason why DSP cores haven't replaced CPU cores.

Originally Posted by dvdmike

Skylake could brute force it thru software

From what I have read on the Doom9 forum we are a few years away from a consumer CPU that can do software decoding for 4K at 100 Mbps with 10-bit video.

Originally Posted by bailey1987

I have just been looking at HEVC on Wikipedia, granted it was Wikipedia information so it's not likely to be accurate, but, has anyone else noticed how the number of frames per second that is possible at a resolution of 3,840×2,160 is not appropriate for what the BDA specification is? for example you can have the following frames per second at a resolution of 3,840×2,160:

3,840×2,160@32.0 (6)
3,840×2,160@64.0 (6)
3,840×2,160@128.0 (6)
3,840×2,160@128.0 (16)
3,840×2,160@256.0 (16)
3,840×2,160@300.0 (16)

So, the closest to 60fps is 64fps and the closest to 24fps is 32fps! So what's the plan?

Those are maximum values and a HEVC decoder capable of a certain level can decode frame rates up to that value.

[bailey1987]

Originally Posted by Richard Paul

Those are maximum values and a HEVC decoder capable of a certain level can decode frame rates up to that value.

Oh right, so that's how it works. Thanks.

[dvdmike]

Originally Posted by bailey1987

Oh right, so that's how it works. Thanks.

Yeah I can encode at 4fps if you like

[jeff_rigby]

Originally Posted by Richard Paul

Generally you get what you pay for and the simple DSP cores like the ones used in Xtensa would be incapable of handling most complicated processing tasks. It is similar to a GPU which can have hundreds/thousands of processing units but they are very limited in the tasks they can do. There is no evidence that Xtensa can do anything related to HEVC decoding.

My guess is that at the time that Intel started to design the HEVC decoder for Skylake they thought that 8-bit decoding was a good idea and by the time they realized it was a mistake it was to late in the process to change it.

Adding up the total GHz isn't really useful when it comes to CPU cores vs DSP cores. They are very different and it would be like comparing baby bunnies with full grown lions (they are both mammals but they are very different). There is a reason why DSP cores haven't replaced CPU cores.

From what I have read on the Doom9 forum we are a few years away from a consumer CPU that can do software decoding for 4K at 100 Mbps with 10-bit video.

Those are maximum values and a HEVC decoder capable of a certain level can decode frame rates up to that value.

A DSP can be 10-20 times more efficient at certain tasks like codecs than a CPU.

Gesh, for the third time, the UVD (Codec) in AMD APUs and dGPUs is a Xtensa DPU. Carrizo's UVD can do HEVC with a 30% duty cycle. A Xtensa DPU is similar to cell, or as Cell would be today with NOC. It has hardware that makes stream process functions more efficient and hardware to accelerate DSP, Codecs, Cryptology, Gesture and voice recognition. This is why AMD uses Tensilica DPUs for those functions in their APUs and dGPUs. I believe Nvidia also uses Tensilica DPUs on the ARM bus in their dGPUs for HEVC also.

AMD and Nvidia have been using Tensilica DPUs for codecs since 2010 at least as it's in this thread: http://arstechnica.com/civis/viewtop...?f=8&t=1095380

Tensilica's Xtensa LX Processor Licensed by NVIDIA This is very early news with little to no information on this now.

Neither company wants to advertises that a large part of their dGPUs and APUs are cadence ARM IP = just about all of the XB1 except the X-86 CPU and GCN GPU. Cadence purchased Tensilica sometime about 2013 and they own the Xtensa product line.

I did more research on the Game consoles and AMD's use of Cadence-Tensilica-Xtensa IP and very little on Nvidia. AMD is putting nearly a Teraop/sec of Xtensa processing in their APUs and dGPUs.

Grand Challenge Scaling - Pushing a Fully Programmable TeraOp into Handset Imaging = IVP and was released in time for it to be in the PS4 or XB1. FYI vision processing is VERY similar to codec processing, the same blocks can do either.

Cadence Tensilica Vision P5 Lets the Light In P5 = 13X the performance of a IVP-EP and IVP-EP is a newer version of the IVP which could be in the Game Consoles. Custom designed by Sony and Microsoft for the features they wanted supported.

The Xtensa processor(s) in the PS4 (according to Sony) can do 200 MP3 streams at a time. I don't know if that was a backhand way to tell us it can support HEVC without violating a NDA. (48Khz X 200) = 9.6 million samples/sec @ 8-16 bit/sample = APX UHD @ 8.3 Mpixels/sec with 10 bit/pixel

[Anthony P]

Originally Posted by Dex Robinson

Let's wait and see. "Early" may be optimistic.

maybe

And I think Panasonic's UHD Blu-ray player for Japan is of questionable lineage as a player. From the description of the machine it seems to be a component of high-end home entertainment system with UHD Blu-ray as one of several listed functions. Perhaps I'm being unfairly skeptical but I get the sense that Panasonic was building this system and somebody said, "Hey, if we are charging $3000.00, let's take the kitchen sink approach and throw in a UHD Blu-ray capable drive". I think it's no so much Panasonics entry into the UHD Blu-ray player market as it is just something else to add to a big dollar system they are hoping to sell.

I disagree with you on that. You are just not in tune with the Japanese market and looking at it from a NA market perspective. PVRs here are very limited and don't tend to have disk capability because they come from the cable/sat/fiber companies and they want you to do PPV instead of disks. In the rest of the world (and Japan in particular) disk PVRs are extremely common, because people think why have one box for your disks, one for your PVR.... This is nothing more the last one in the line up , for example look at this from 2007 http://news.panasonic.com/press/news...n071002-6.html

Panasonic Unveils Six New DIGA Blu-ray and DVD Recorders

or this from 2010
http://techcrunch.com/2010/02/09/pan...yers-in-japan/

Panasonic also announced three Blu-ray 3D DIGA recorders [JP] today

their latest highest end PVR can now also upscale 4k.


So do you think that Panasonic (and other manufacturers since I could do the same with Sony or Samsung .....) have had BD PVRs (and DVD PVRs before that) out of some last minute "let's throw in the kitchen sink kind of idea?

Yes, I know I'm being a stick in the mud but I'm getting weary after reading this thread for 13 months.

I can understand that

[Richard Paul]

Originally Posted by jeff_rigby

A DSP can be 10-20 times more efficient at certain tasks like codecs than a CPU.

For audio processing a DSP can be used since audio processing tends to be simple. DSP chips have been used in audio products for decades. For example 15 years ago I bought a sound card that could process 64 audio channels and it used DSP chips.

Originally Posted by jeff_rigby

Gesh, for the third time, the UVD (Codec) in AMD APUs and dGPUs is a Xtensa DPU.

From everything I have read UVD6 includes a fixed function HEVC decoder.

Originally Posted by jeff_rigby

Carrizo's UVD can do HEVC with a 30% duty cycle.

UVD6 allows for power gating so that it is on 25% of the time when decoding video but that is only when it is decoding 1080p video.

Originally Posted by jeff_rigby

FYI vision processing is VERY similar to codec processing, the same blocks can do either.

Bilateral filtering is not the same as HEVC decoding. You can use very simple processing units for bilateral filtering.

Originally Posted by jeff_rigby

The Xtensa processor(s) in the PS4 (according to Sony) can do 200 MP3 streams at a time. I don't know if that was a backhand way to tell us it can support HEVC without violating a NDA. (48Khz X 200) = 9.6 million samples/sec @ 8-16 bit/sample = APX UHD @ 8.3 Mpixels/sec with 10 bit/pixel

You are randomly combining numbers together and than comparing them with other numbers. This does explain though why you think a DSP chip is so incredible since you are looking at the number of operations per second without understanding the severe limitations that a DSP chip has. If you want to have a better understanding of video decoding I would recommend "Digital Video and HD" by Charles Poynton.

[jeff_rigby]

Originally Posted by Richard Paul

For audio processing a DSP can be used since audio processing tends to be simple. DSP chips have been used in audio products for decades. For example 15 years ago I bought a sound card that could process 64 audio channels and it used DSP chips.

From everything I have read UVD6 includes a fixed function HEVC decoder.

UVD6 allows for power gating so that it is on 25% of the time when decoding video but that is only when it is decoding 1080p video.

Bilateral filtering is not the same as HEVC decoding. You can use very simple processing units for bilateral filtering.

You are randomly combining numbers together and than comparing them with other numbers. This does explain though why you think a DSP chip is so incredible since you are looking at the number of operations per second without understanding the severe limitations that a DSP chip has. If you want to have a better understanding of video decoding I would recommend "Digital Video and HD" by Charles Poynton.

Do you even read the links I cite? Vision processing is comparing pixel blocks to determine shape and then determining how they move in the frame from frame to frame. h.264 and h.265 do the same with tiles and h.256 can have variable size and smaller tiles. This is why AMD uses the same Xtensa processor for Codecs and Gesture Recognition in ALL AMD APUs. All AMD APUs have ARM middleware for gesture recognition that uses the same Xtensa processor. Many ARM Cell Phones use the same gesture recognition middleware that AMD uses.

The Xtensa processor is a fairly powerful controller CPU and multiple simple smaller CPUs (up to 64) that can have custom blocks. If it's to perform Audio DSP functions it can have one of those 64 smaller CPUs with DSP hardware. You are confusing audio DSP with Video-Digital signal processing.

You seem to keep thinking of the Xtensa DPU as JUST a audio DSP, it's not. ALL AMD UVDs are Xtensa processors. UVD stands for Universal Video Decoder and it handles ALL video decoding from Mpeg 2 to HEVC and VP9 via SOFTWARE....it's not a VISC fixed function block. It can handle multiple tasks at the same time EFFICIENTLY because it supports NOC. Kaveri has a UVD 4.2 and Carrizo has a UVD 6. This corresponds to UVD 4.2 = IVP and UVD 6 = IVP-EP which is more efficient and faster. No doubt the latest revision of the PS4 Southbridge contains a Xtensa processor that is more efficient and faster and timing would have that as having IVP-EP features same as Carrrizo.

It would benefit readers to understand the Xtensa processor as it's in MANY consumer electronics to support codecs, vision and sound processing...the same processor does all more efficiently than the CPUs can do it. It is key to many features we are now seeing that were touted in 2010. It will be in many UHD blu-ray player TEE SoCs.

Edit: "From everything I have read UVD6 includes a fixed function HEVC decoder." Yes I have read that also and dismissed it as ignorance on the part of the author. It may have new instructions and custom hardware in one of those smaller CPU blocks to make it more efficient @ HEVC but it's not a fixed function block codec. Notice the UVD is used for UHD and HD with 4 times the bandwidth to support 4K. It finishes HD in 1/4 the time and powers off, notice it tries for full screen video and has video scaling hardware as part of the UVD. Out of the box it doesn't have software to support VP9 but it can be supported because the UVD is a software accelerator.



What Kaveri's UVD can do, Carrizo's UVD 6 can likely do faster and more efficiently and that includes other codecs and vision processing none of which need a traditional DSP block to convert analog to digital since the video is already digitized. A traditional Audio DSP block that you mentioned is only still needed for Audio. Modern video cameras already have the video as a digital stream. DSP now means digital signal processing which for video is now stream processing and requires extremely powerful hardware.

This page has a incomplete list of the products using Xtensa DPUs, click on the category on the left.