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Old 02-22-2015, 11:30 PM   #1721
FilmFreakosaurus FilmFreakosaurus is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anthony P View Post
don't get me wrong the sooner the better, but I don't agree with you.

No matter what, launch will be small because anything else does not make sense. Movies are "perishable" ( for example a new release goes for 20$ and a few months later it is 15 and then 10 and then 5) Even if a studio could do it, it would be madness to release 1000 films on week one because consumers won't buy them (who has the $ and needs 1000 films at once) and by the time they get to some of them the consumer won't want to spend as much ( "that film came out a year ago, why are they charging full price")

Second I am not surer they are "dragging their feet". My guess is that you have never been part of a working group like this.

first you have self interest (we want X to be added because it is good for us, we don't want Y to be added because it is bad for us....)

e.g.
[Show spoiler] look at DTHD or VC1, I am sure Dolby and MS would have preferred if their rival was never included in the BD specs. So it is not enough to just be in it as an optional spec


then you have politics (we want X, you guys want Z , I will support Z, you support X we both say we don't want Y)


[Show spoiler] the BDF was formed because many companies were working on and wanted a new blue, .1mm HD format but some of the other companies in the DVD forum wanted to keep getting the DVD royalties their patents gave them and did not want to see those drop or disappear before the patents expired.


then you have feasibility (it is nice to have a bunch of specs but what will it mean for the studio, the replicator, the manufacturer.....)

[Show spoiler] I am sure we would all love a 500GB BD for 4k but can it be replicated with a cost that makes sense? what will it cost to have a device that supports Dolby's, Philips and Technicolor's HDR and will they all work together on one device? I have always thought that an RFID built into the disk would be an awesome idea - for the retailer it eliminates shoplifting and can be used for inventory control , for the consumer it could mean "fancier" multi disk players- distributed digital/physical AV server or a simple auto disk changer feature TVshow_1, TVshow_2... or Movie_1, movie_2 or would it be too



and lastly details (they always exist)

[spoiler] for example what profile do you add for video, how many speakers for audio....... CODECs are not enough

It is never as simple as OK let's just add 4K, it always needs some time
Sony wants their own proprietary download service. Everyone knows this. They're a key player holding many cards in the Blu-ray format. Everyone knows this. They want to move to an internet based distribution system, damn the hackers and damn the quality, no matter what. Total control of content and profits because they're hurting financially (and just a little bit greedy).

Feet dragging ensues within the ranks with another physical disc medium.
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Old 02-22-2015, 11:39 PM   #1722
Richard Paul Richard Paul is offline
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Originally Posted by Penton-Man View Post
b.t.w., I didn’t get a chance to mention it last month when you linked the leaked Panasonic slide from AV Watch, but anyhow, with regards to BT.2020 on p.2, footnote3 of the BDA pdf file….

with my quick perusal of AV websites containing articles including editorials/commentary over the past several months, AV writers seem to assume that the biggest debate amongst engineers/scientists involved in determining the parameters of 2020 was concerning the chromaticity coordinates for the color primaries (red, green blue) or perhaps bit depth (10, 12bit)…not so….most attention and study was actually afforded to coding (Constant vs Non-Constant luminance) for sub-sampled signals -
reference, April 2013
I heard that constant luminance gave a slight decrease in bit rate but that it caused other problems which is why both methods were added to the UHDTV standard. Since non-constant luminance has been used for decades I am not surprised that they are sticking with it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FilmFreakosaurus View Post
The point is this is not a totally new format, just an extension to what we already have. And yet the industry is dragging their feet once again and once more the right hand doesn't seem to know what the left is doing.
While the BDA has called it an extension when it comes to video improvement I think the change from Blu-ray to Ultra HD Blu-ray could be larger than the change from DVD to Blu-ray. Both increased resolution but Ultra HD Blu-ray is also increasing the bit depth, color space, and dynamic range. That is several major changes for consumer video.
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Old 02-22-2015, 11:40 PM   #1723
FilmFreakosaurus FilmFreakosaurus is offline
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Originally Posted by Anthony P View Post
agree but you missed the point I was making. Let me make it simple, if a studio did not care about using Atmos last year would they have been delayed? If a 50GB disk is enough for a film does the studio need to know what other sized disks might be an option? If a studio wants to use Atmos (or DTHD or DTS-MA....) does it matter what other audio 4k will support?

my point was that the basics are known because things (including resolution) are just being added to the existing BD in order to make the new 4k profile and compatibility won't be broken. Unless it is run by morons they won't say the new 4K BDs can't use BD-J or BDMV and must use BD4KM (a new menu system for 4k)
I definitely understand what you're getting at.
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Old 02-23-2015, 12:57 AM   #1724
JoeDeM JoeDeM is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FilmFreakosaurus View Post
Sony wants their own proprietary download service. Everyone knows this. They're a key player holding many cards in the Blu-ray format. Everyone knows this. They want to move to an internet based distribution system, damn the hackers and damn the quality, no matter what. Total control of content and profits because they're hurting financially (and just a little bit greedy).

Feet dragging ensues within the ranks with another physical disc medium.
They maybe a key player, but their approch is flawed and short sighted as well, who wants to tie up their Internet connection for 20 to 30 hours to download a massive file, then there's the problem of storage of theses massive files. You and I both know that nothing is cheaper than a disc based system to deliver large amounts of data.
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dublinbluray108 (02-23-2015), FilmFreakosaurus (02-23-2015)
Old 02-23-2015, 01:02 AM   #1725
JoeDeM JoeDeM is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Paul View Post
While the BDA has called it an extension when it comes to video improvement I think the change from Blu-ray to Ultra HD Blu-ray could be larger than the change from DVD to Blu-ray. Both increased resolution but Ultra HD Blu-ray is also increasing the bit depth, color space, and dynamic range. That is several major changes for consumer video.
I agree, every facet has been changed right down to the copy protection, it's not an extension, it's an evolution.
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Old 02-23-2015, 05:30 PM   #1726
Penton-Man Penton-Man is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by s2mikey View Post
So, are you all going to be replacing your entire movie catalogs with 4K versions? IMO that'd be completely crazy but to each their own. From normal viewing distances a good quality 1080p blu Ray setup looks terrific. Sure, 4K is more resolution on paper but..... Nevermind, not gonna even argue it. ....
Excellent, then meanwhile perhaps you can learn something.

The *draw* for Ultra HD Blu-ray for movie enthusiasts seriously interested in the absolute best picture quality yet made available to consumers involves increased bit depth, wider color gamut, higher dynamic range and, depending on the case, increased spatial resolution.

WCG and HDR are distance-independent. As to the static resolution (‘4K’) part of the UHD recipe, viewers with normal vision can differentiate ‘consumer 4K’ (i.e. 2160p) vs. 1080p imagery from at least 9ft. away when viewing a 56” sized display….this has been proven not “on paper” but in scientific testing of non-biased observers/viewers by independent research labs not out to sell people televisions, cameras, calibration services, proprietary solutions, whatever - https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...ic#post9485052

The 9ft. viewing distance/ 55-56” TV finding being also corroborated (with caveats) by less stringent testing methods from a more typical consumer-type entity which involved 49 observers - http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/4k-re...1312153517.htm
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Old 02-23-2015, 05:36 PM   #1727
Penton-Man Penton-Man is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FilmFreakosaurus View Post
Sony wants their own proprietary download service. Everyone knows this. They're a key player holding many cards in the Blu-ray format. Everyone knows this. They want to move to an internet based distribution system, damn the hackers and damn the quality, no matter what. Total control of content and profits because they're hurting financially (and just a little bit greedy).

Feet dragging ensues within the ranks with another physical disc medium.
I can understand why picture quality enthusiasts might be disappointed by Sony’s lack of public enthusiasm for Ultra HD Blu-ray given what was said and what not was said at promotional demos like this – https://www.avforums.com/article/son...tv-range.11126
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Old 02-23-2015, 05:54 PM   #1728
Penton-Man Penton-Man is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Paul View Post
I heard that constant luminance gave a slight decrease in bit rate but that it caused other problems which is why both methods were added to the UHDTV standard. Since non-constant luminance has been used for decades I am not surprised that they are sticking with it.
The two different approaches (NCL and CL) were thought to have either technical or operational advantages over one another, thusly the value of each approach is best determined by what is of prime importance to the use case. Ergo, both were included in BT.2020.

It’s a complex topic. In the working group meetings for the development of the Rec BT. 2020, constant luminance had support because objective analysis showed more accurate retention of luminance information (in other words less crosstalk, i.e. the Y signal is less infected with chrominance information), plus, expectations for better compression efficiency in transmission and delivery….and the thought that perhaps someday it could even allow 4:1:0.

On the other hand, with the traditional non-constant luminance (like in BT. 709), that approach yields similar results with color mixing between RGB and YCbCr, in addition, everyone in the production community is already familiar with it in HD TV practice, so it’s a comfortable carry over to UHD (after changing the coefficient values due to the difference in RGB primaries between 709 and 2020).

If you’d like further detail, see the paper by Choi et al. -
http://www.researchgate.net/publicat...nals_for_UHDTV

Since I’m published, I’ve utilized ResearchGate ^ for scientific journals of which I don’t have a current subscription. I think you can get a free copy from there if one has authored something in a peer reviewed journal; otherwise, perhaps only a quick registration even if one is not (published), but not sure on the later for now I simply log in there. Check it out sometime . It’s a good additional resource for real science.

P.S.
The paper is published in SID 2013 Digest, if you happen to get that journal.

Last edited by Penton-Man; 02-23-2015 at 06:00 PM. Reason: added a P.S.
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Old 02-23-2015, 11:40 PM   #1729
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Does anybody know if 4k Blu-ray players will be able to play DVDs?
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Old 02-23-2015, 11:48 PM   #1730
FilmFreakosaurus FilmFreakosaurus is offline
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Originally Posted by shredking9000 View Post
Does anybody know if 4k Blu-ray players will be able to play DVDs?
That provision is optional in the Ultra HD Blu-ray bylaws. Since it takes a separate laser diode and we are two generations past, it's up to each manufacturer to decide if they want to add DVD support or not to their UHD players.

Last edited by FilmFreakosaurus; 02-23-2015 at 11:53 PM.
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Old 02-24-2015, 01:36 AM   #1731
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FilmFreakosaurus View Post
That provision is optional in the Ultra HD Blu-ray bylaws. Since it takes a separate laser diode and we are two generations past, it's up to each manufacturer to decide if they want to add DVD support or not to their UHD players.
Two generations past and yet 2/3 of all disc sales. Does not compute.
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Old 02-24-2015, 02:24 AM   #1732
FilmFreakosaurus FilmFreakosaurus is offline
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Two generations past and yet 2/3 of all disc sales. Does not compute.
If they're penny pinchers it does. It would be pretty stupid, but they may think the only people who would buy a player like this already are Blu-ray connoisseurs.
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Old 02-24-2015, 05:02 AM   #1733
raygendreau raygendreau is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FilmFreakosaurus View Post
That provision is optional in the Ultra HD Blu-ray bylaws. Since it takes a separate laser diode and we are two generations past, it's up to each manufacturer to decide if they want to add DVD support or not to their UHD players.
"I’ve also officially confirmed that Ultra HD Blu-ray will require a new player, but that these new players will be backwards compatible, able to play all current Blu-ray and DVD software (as with current BD players, there is also optional support for existing 1080p Blu-ray 3D discs –"

http://www.thedigitalbits.com/column...ts/010615_1530

"As to manufacturer support for the new Blu-Ray format, during CES Panasonic unveiled an Ultra HD Blu-Ray player, which will be available this year. Matsuda said supported players would talk to TVs with HDMI 1.2 or HDMI 2.0. Additionally, he said Utra HD Blu-Ray players must be backward compatible, able to play a standard Blu-Ray or a DVD."

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/beh...blu-ray-761728

No market for UBD player without backward compatibility to DVD, internet connected for UHD streaming. They may even have Netflix Seal of Approval, as will displays. Expect Netflix, Amazon and possibly M-Go apps for UHD streaming.

Also, most likely, SeeQvault (digital bridge) SD card slot. The studios want this, because they believe it will reduce piracy. This is next gen Ultraviolet. No code required.

Last edited by raygendreau; 02-24-2015 at 05:32 AM.
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Old 02-24-2015, 05:55 AM   #1734
FilmFreakosaurus FilmFreakosaurus is offline
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Originally Posted by raygendreau View Post
"I’ve also officially confirmed that Ultra HD Blu-ray will require a new player, but that these new players will be backwards compatible, able to play all current Blu-ray and DVD software (as with current BD players, there is also optional support for existing 1080p Blu-ray 3D discs –"

http://www.thedigitalbits.com/column...ts/010615_1530

"As to manufacturer support for the new Blu-Ray format, during CES Panasonic unveiled an Ultra HD Blu-Ray player, which will be available this year. Matsuda said supported players would talk to TVs with HDMI 1.2 or HDMI 2.0. Additionally, he said Utra HD Blu-Ray players must be backward compatible, able to play a standard Blu-Ray or a DVD."

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/beh...blu-ray-761728

No market for UBD player without backward compatibility to DVD, internet connected for UHD streaming. They may even have Netflix Seal of Approval, as will displays. Expect Netflix, Amazon and possibly M-Go apps for UHD streaming.

Also, most likely, SeeQvault (digital bridge) SD card slot. The studios want this, because they believe it will reduce piracy. This is next gen Ultraviolet. No code required.

It's good that at least initially some companies are talking about leaving DVD support included. It's still an optional provision.
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Old 02-24-2015, 07:13 AM   #1735
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I'm intrigued about this 'digital bridge', ideally for me it will allow me to transfer trailers and TV spots to another device. At present I have no real need to transfer the entire film, I never look at the ultra violet copies once I have entered the code. I can't see any reason why this couldn't be a feature from launch but I expect it to be in another profile 7.0 most likely. Speaking of profiles do you think Ultra HD Blu-ray will be profile 6.0.
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Old 02-24-2015, 04:06 PM   #1736
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4k Blu-rays coming later then expected, or Panasonic coming late in the game?


http://www.whathifi.com/news/panason...er-spring-2016
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Old 02-24-2015, 04:13 PM   #1737
raygendreau raygendreau is offline
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Originally Posted by FilmFreakosaurus View Post
It's good that at least initially some companies are talking about leaving DVD support included. It's still an optional provision.
"Additionally, he said Ultra HD Blu-Ray players must be backward compatible, able to play a standard Blu-Ray or a DVD."

The use of the word must means mandatory, not optional.
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Old 02-24-2015, 04:16 PM   #1738
FilmFreakosaurus FilmFreakosaurus is offline
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Originally Posted by AudioWarrior View Post
4k Blu-rays coming later then expected, or Panasonic coming late in the game?


http://www.whathifi.com/news/panason...er-spring-2016
I had a hunch CES 2016 would end up being UHD Blu-ray's formal launching pad. Since the BDA is still polishing the specs. I just don't see how everything would be ready to go this year.
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Old 02-24-2015, 04:27 PM   #1739
raygendreau raygendreau is offline
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Originally Posted by bailey1987 View Post
I'm intrigued about this 'digital bridge', ideally for me it will allow me to transfer trailers and TV spots to another device. At present I have no real need to transfer the entire film, I never look at the ultra violet copies once I have entered the code. I can't see any reason why this couldn't be a feature from launch but I expect it to be in another profile 7.0 most likely. Speaking of profiles do you think Ultra HD Blu-ray will be profile 6.0.
It will be optional:

"Integrating SeeQVault in the U.S. market, reliant on rented cable and satellite set-top boxes from protective service suppliers, will be more of a challenge that the largely over-the-air (OTA) TV market in Japan, however. NSM executives are expecting the major adoption of SeeQVault in the U.S. will be on premium Ultra HD Blu-ray decks."


http://www.twice.com/seeqvault-sd-ca...-blu-ray/55722
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Old 02-24-2015, 05:06 PM   #1740
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bailey1987 View Post
I'm intrigued about this 'digital bridge'
If this comes about at the same rate as UV and the CFF then it could be many years, if ever, before digital bridge hardware and software is available. Last I looked there was not any UV with CFF compatible hardware even tho the UV site has been saying "Coming Soon" for three years.
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