"Club Penton" - Ask questions to Hollywood insider "Penton-Man"

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by horseflesh

I'm soon going to be looking for a stand-alone BD player. I've had a US PS3 for about 18 months and been very happy with it, but it will soon be going into the kids' playroom....................

Good to hear because the kids are complaining that they became tired of watching the same HD DVD over and over and over again months ago and the thing doesn’t even function anymore as a satisfactory cup holder……………….

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IvE_dONJIWU

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by DaViD Boulet

.....of HDMI 1.3.

FYI, this was just announced recently…………………
http://www.broadcastbuyer.tv/publish...es_18047.shtml

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by DaViD Boulet

In the case where I reviewed the Panny BD50 for dvdfile.......

I noticed in your review of Baraka (as well as Marty’s [our on-site reviewer]) that neither of you guys noticed any edge enhancement during real time watching of that movie…………despite the fact that *screenshot scientists* have already mounted an attack to spread viewing misery to the film enthusiast demographic by referring to its appearance on compressed jpeg screenshots.

Do you feel you ‘missed’ this alleged *image indiscretion* based on the fact that you were too involved in watching the movie or that the Panny isn’t a capable Blu-ray reproduction player, or your display is too small, or what ?

I would be interested in your thoughts as Mark Magidson reads this thread.

[Penton-Man]

^
Speaking of capturing at high resolution and then down rezzing to be viewed on a smaller *pixel surface*, do any football (soccer) supporters know which rather well-known and well-recognized footballer was captured by 4K image acquisition earlier this year, to be subsequently displayed and primarily viewed on tiny 320 x 240-pixel displays?

[Penton-Man]

Carry on with this good discussion, as I for one, am finding it helpful because I’ll be in the market for another player for another room in the house at Christmas time.

[Bizi Jones]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

^
Speaking of capturing at high resolution and then down rezzing to be viewed on a smaller *pixel surface*, do any football (soccer) supporters know which rather well-known and well-recognized footballer was captured by 4K image acquisition earlier this year, to be subsequently displayed and primarily viewed on tiny 320 x 240-pixel displays?

The head budder Zidane?

[Slec]

Originally Posted by Bizi Jones

The head budder Zidane?

Nah, its gotta be the Man-U pretty boy..

[coolmilo]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Carry on with this good discussion, as I for one, am finding it helpful because I’ll be in the market for another player for another room in the house at Christmas time.

What, no XBR8 in your near future?

[Jeff Kleist]

Originally Posted by DaViD Boulet

When comparing the sound of lossless PCM, TrueHD, and DTS HD MA over HDMI (even when decoded to PCM), there should be no change to audio level as you're supposed to be getting a bit-for-bit copy of the original sound file.

If there is any change in level whatsoever between two players handling the same lossless stream, then that would be indicative that some device was altering the signal and adding its own processing stage to the audio. And that would be bad period.

It still doesn't mean that they are the same when the come out the other end in terms of volume due to how they're mastered. You need to use an SPL meter to make sure you're getting the same levels before doing any comparison.

For example, the TrueHD track on Top Gun is about 7db lower than the DTS HDMA track, but when level matched sound identical.

[HeavyHitter]

Originally Posted by Esox50

So the folks at PHL who helped develop the Panny players are cooking the image? Sorry, I don't buy it.

Look I have a PS3 AND a Panny BD35, and I can tell you the video on the Panny is slightly sharper and there's just something about the colors that looks more "silky and pure" to me on the Panny. More organic/real if you will; that's the best way I could describe it. If you read my previous posts in this thread on this matter, you'll see I'm talking about maybe a 5% (more or less) improvement.

According to Kjack, all decoders these days are pretty much equal in 1080p/24 HDMI performance - at least with AVC and VC-1. I asked the question about PQ differences in units some time ago.

https://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.p...&postcount=292

https://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.p...&postcount=294

I'm not sure what's happening on the Panasonics..and I'm not necessarily saying they are doing some altering. I've even thought of trying out the BD35 myself. However, one insider - not Kjack - told me the Pioneer 05/51FD have altered the image even in default modes in regards to contrast frequencies to give more "pop." Something like this may be visually pleasing, but is altering the source.

[Esox50]

Originally Posted by HeavyHitter

According to Kjack, all decoders these days are pretty much equal in 1080p/24 performance. I asked the question about PQ differences in units some time ago.

https://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.p...&postcount=292

https://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.p...&postcount=294

I'm not sure what's happening on the Panasonics, however, one insider - not Kjack - told me the Pioneer 05/51FD have altered the image even in default modes in regards to contrast frequencies to give more "pop."

Thanks for the clarification. Since you were quoting me, and I was talking about the Panny players, it stood to reason that you were saying the Panny was cooking the image.

The Uniphier chip used in the Panny players was developed in conjunction with Panasonic Hollywood Labs. Read up on that chip. Also read up on some of the demos of that chip that have been conducted on site for the press and home theater enthusiasts. I sincerely doubt they are cooking the image in any way.

The Pioneer may be a different story...

[Anthony P]

It still doesn't mean that they are the same when the come out the other end in terms of volume due to how they're mastered. You need to use an SPL meter to make sure you're getting the same levels before doing any comparison.

For example, the TrueHD track on Top Gun is about 7db lower than the DTS HDMA track, but when level matched sound identical.

true, but David is not comparing different tracks on the same machine but the same one on different machines. Why would the DTS-HD MA sound different if it is decoded on the PS3, his receiver or his Pany?

[horseflesh]

Originally Posted by Maxpower1987

Pioneer LX91 (or whatever the US equivalent is), I'm sure you can wrangle one out of Pioneer for next to nothing. I know I am going to try my luck!

Moreso thsn the Panny? (I've seen you mention Panasonic players in glowing terms on a good few occasions)
Have you seen the LX91 in action?
Do you know if Pioneer BD players can easily be made multi-region for DVD?

On a side note; congrats on the first league win today
(I hope Penton wasn't holding out to watch Spurs later, he didn't specifically say not to mention anything)

[horseflesh]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Good to hear because the kids are complaining that they became tired of watching the same HD DVD over and over and over again months ago and the thing doesn’t even function anymore as a satisfactory cup holder……………….

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IvE_dONJIWU

[neo_reloaded]

Originally Posted by Anthony P

you see that is where I am of opposite mind. For lossless audio I would think they would need to be much more similar. But the same way you can "see a discrepancy if we're talking 1080p over component since that involves a conversion to analog" you are missing that going from lossy to a full frame adds "guesswork" like going from digital to analog. The only way a lossless encode (audio) would end up with a different digital signal on both devices is if
1) one or both devices don't decode the audio correctly (at wich point I would say you can't call them lossless
2) one or both devices do some post decoding manipulation (like dialog normalization, pumping up the volume....) which would mean you do get a lossless decode but that is not what you are listening to.
3) if there is an issue with either your HDMI cable or HDMI connectors on your device

after all, if the same DACs get the exact same LPCM then they should decode it exactly the same way, and a lossless decode should give you the same PCM

as for video, it is not lossless, so each device tries to decompress it to the best it can. Instead of trying to get technical, let me try and explain it a different way. 1/3 gives us .33 (if all we can do is save at two decimal places) now 1/3*3=.33*3=.99 while we all would agree that 3/3=1 so depending on restrictions and how I do the math I can end up with two distinct values and in a way they are both right, for example if I have a store and I mark everything up by 1/3 then my 1$ item is sold for 1.33 and if the person buys 3 of them they would pay 3.99 and I would not charge them 4$.

This is in effect what happens when decoding video, there are i frames which explain all pixels (but in groups) followed by p and b frames which only represent part of them (the ones that change). since the p and b are only approximate and only part of the frame there can be slight differences between one device and the other (think of the math example given above) also since i frames need to define all the 1080x1920 pixels they are also very restricted in what they can bring to the table.

Even once you are past the pure decoding no matter how well it is done you also have the reality that for most devices there will be some post processing, for a very blatant example look at the first Samsung BD player, the device could only decode in 1080i and then that 1080i signal passed through a second chip that changed it back to 1080p which was then outputted by the player.

I agree completely with you in regards to lossless audio (or lossless anything). All the information is there, so the results should, in theory, always be the same.

I understand that lossy compression does not represent all the original data. But I always thought that the "estimation" / information loss phase of the process was done in the actual encoding, and that decoding was a strict by-the-books operation. Here is how I would have guessed the process went using your number analogy: The simplification can be multiple things, but let's say 1/3 to 0.33 is chosen. That price is marked on the item. Now any cashier you bring that item to will just read the price, so customers will always be charged 0.33. The cashiers don't have to think themselves, they just follow the original simplification.

I did not know about the i/p/b frame stuff, and would be very interested to hear more. I'm a computer engineer (though obviously not working in the field of multimedia encoding ) so don't worry about getting complicated, I can handle it.

[Mr. Cinema]

Penton,

There's another playback issue you need to be made aware of. This time it's for Indiana Jones and the Kingdom of the Crystal Skull. On the new Sony BDP-S550, at about the 57:11 mark, the movie freezes and eventually skips ahead to about the 59:00 mark. I've read this issue on other forums and just tried it myself. I get the exact same error.

This apparently is an issue on the 350 model as well.

[HeavyHitter]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

For some historical perspective, I find this whole discussion quite ironic since the PS3 is still being referred to as the *gold standard* or close to it for a High Definition Movie player and I remember back in the day during the format war on a certain *science* forum where all the *scientists* were chastising the PS3 before it even launched in that it would “never be a good Blu-ray player” and the elitists over there “would never consider having a gaming machine play their movies” in their super expensive home theaters while sipping on their ‘96 Chateau Lafite Rothschild.

Despite all that, even before the PS3 shipped, I went on record saying that it would be the most future-proof and overall best Blu-ray player for a long time and encouraged first time Blu-ray buyers to grab one.
I personally would buy a coffee machine if it was the fasting loading, fasting functioning and best audio/video Blu-ray player on the market at the time……..a bonus being in that it also brewed coffee but, I’m a true “videophile” .
Best audio/video purchase I ever made.

I remember a certain drunken tivo dealer bashing the PS3 just after it was released claiming it had terrible PQ quality.

[Paul H]

Originally Posted by DaViD Boulet

When comparing the sound of lossless PCM, TrueHD, and DTS HD MA over HDMI (even when decoded to PCM), there should be no change to audio level as you're supposed to be getting a bit-for-bit copy of the original sound file.

If there is any change in level whatsoever between two players handling the same lossless stream, then that would be indicative that some device was altering the signal and adding its own processing stage to the audio. And that would be bad period.

Originally Posted by Jeff Kleist

It still doesn't mean that they are the same when the come out the other end in terms of volume due to how they're mastered. You need to use an SPL meter to make sure you're getting the same levels before doing any comparison.

For example, the TrueHD track on Top Gun is about 7db lower than the DTS HDMA track, but when level matched sound identical.

As soon as I read DaViD's post I was going to mention "Top Gun" (Blu-ray) with both English 5.1 Dolby TrueHD and English 6.1 DTS Master Audio, but you beat me to it.

My assumption as to why the D TrueHD track is quieter at the same level was because Dolby has a history of using "Dial-Norm" frequently and in this case and DTS doesn't as a rule.

Paul

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Mr. Cinema

Penton,

There's another playback issue you need to be made aware of. This time it's for Indiana Jones and the Kingdom of the Crystal Skull. On the new Sony BDP-S550, at about the 57:11 mark, the movie freezes and eventually skips ahead to about the 59:00 mark. I've read this issue on other forums and just tried it myself. I get the exact same error.

This apparently is an issue on the 350 model as well.

More info needed.
Does this mis-step only occur with the Sony 350 and 550 models, and no other brand of player?

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by horseflesh

..........(I hope Penton wasn't holding out to watch Spurs later, he didn't specifically say not to mention anything)

Nope, but I’m planning on watching Arsenal/West Ham? (recorded) in a few moments.