"Club Penton" - Ask questions to Hollywood insider "Penton-Man"

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by pro-bassoonist

The overwhelming majority of people who have been critical there and elsewhere, over 98% ......
Dr.A

Plus, the overwhelming majority of people who have been critical there and elsewhere, over 98% have either –
1. Never seen the theatrical presentation of whatever feature films they enjoy bashing or making flippant accusations about
or
2. Do not have a reliable recollection of the appearance of the 35mm theatrical presentation to begin with.

So now, anything that appears “soft”, “blurry”, or “grainless”, etc. is automatically placed into the “This was DNR’ed by the compressionist category” or at the very least, the “Do you think this was DNR’ed by the compressionist category” so that they can *discuss it* ad nausea with screenshots.

I have no idea what scenes of The Godfather Trilogy that the AVS *scientist* is accusing of being “DNR’ed” ;however, I can tell you that it is a known fact among anyone that has studied THE GODFATHER, PART II that Gordon Willis used soft lighting and a filter for all the period work in that feature film.

And in regards to the color tone and whether the Blu-ray is an accurate reproduction, I would suggest all the naysayers from that forum attend one of these presentations………………….
http://www.filmforum.org/films/godfather.html

so as to be reassured before they make their Blu-ray purchase that their money will be well spent.

I’ve got to go over to that board and see what all the commotion is about.
Is it on the regular DNR/EE list or on one of the numerous DNR title by title threads that they have over there with the complementary screenshots?

[Penton-Man]

On noes!

Yikes, now they’re starting to condemn simulated crowds integrated with the plate photography, as being “too smooth and blurry”!
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...&postcount=568

Memo from Penton-Man to all filmmakers……….
1. No more render layers are allowed.
2. No one is allowed to rotoscope real people in the plate photography of digital people.

or else, the *science* forum will suspect the studio’s compressionist has DNR’ed the HD master.

[dialog_gvf]

Shouldn't we begin to lash out at the DNR and EE on Tetro, just to be safe?

[HeavyHitter]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

I’ve got to go over to that board and see what all the commotion is about.
Is it on the regular DNR/EE list or on one of the numerous DNR title by title threads that they have over there with the complementary screenshots?

It's in a title thread. Most of it starts on this page where "dvdmike007" thinks Robert Duvall's face has DNR. However, "bplewis24" claims of Godfather III's incorrect color timing based on screenshots and SD DVD becomes even more humorous. Of course, others have chimed in. There's also a few residual red ants taking some swings at Bill Hunt in that thread for being too "emotional" or "fanboyish" about his (outstanding) Godfather review. That's all it takes to really understand the root of some of the thread - you still have some ants with their agendas.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...044422&page=10

[Penton-Man]

^
I just glanced at that page and I’m wondering if some posts were deleted as I didn’t see any DNR accusations………. just color timing *queries*.
Seems to me that somebody cleaned up their act(s) after the fact.

I would suggest that the *color scientists* read this article…………….
http://www.ascmag.com/magazine_dynam...ocus/page1.php

And since some people over there think that RAH (as well as Kim Aubrey, paidgeek and myself) are outright liars since explaining the appearance of the colors on F.F.C.’s Bram Stoker’s Dracula, I would recommend that they research these names for a record of their expertise and honesty –

Gordon Willis, ASC,

Allen Daviau, ASC (think StEM among other things)
https://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.p...postcount=1714

Jan Yarbrough

[Penton-Man]

^
Give me a minute and I’ll get a couple of links for the later two fellows as I’m sure the hobbyists have never even heard their names before, much less realize how respected they are among their colleagues.

And if they don’t know who Gordon Willis, ASC is, they shouldn’t even be critiquing anything about The Godfather Trilogy whatsoever to begin with.

[Penton-Man]

For Allen……………..
http://www.dcimovies.com/press/09-24-03.tt2

For Jan………………
http://www.editorsguild.com/v2/magaz..._article04.htm

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by dialog_gvf

Shouldn't we begin to lash out at the DNR and EE on Tetro, just to be safe?

It should be interesting to see how many halos and waxy faces they can count with their magnifying glasses in hand for the upcoming Blu-ray……

Journey to the Center of the Earth

[dialog_gvf]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

It should be interesting to see how many halos and waxy faces they can count with their magnifying glasses in hand for the upcoming Blu-ray……

Journey to the Center of the Earth

It's a shame we'll have to wait for many years to see that as intended, in the home.

I've mentioned this before: This 3D theatrical rush that is about to occur could be a big problem for the home video sales, if the consumer perceives they are getting a pale reflection of the original movie.

If The Dark Knight was 3D, what would be the predictions for DVD and Blu-ray discs sales?

Gary

[4K2K]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

It should be interesting to see how many halos and waxy faces they can count with their magnifying glasses in hand for the upcoming Blu-ray……

Journey to the Center of the Earth

Do you mean that it has had lots of DNR and the faces look waxy? Or do you mean it has had no DNR or similar processing/smoothing at all?

[Ben]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

^
Give me a minute and I’ll get a couple of links for the later two fellows as I’m sure the hobbyists have never even heard their names before, much less realize how respected they are among their colleagues.

And if they don’t know who Gordon Willis, ASC is, they shouldn’t even be critiquing anything about The Godfather Trilogy whatsoever to begin with.

I couldn't agree more, Penton. If The Prince of Darkness doesn't ring any bells, it might be a good idea to shut one's pie hole in a public forum...

[Anthony P]

Seems easier to just cut to the chase, and also before the web begins to "print the legend."

I think you are wrong. Facts seldom stop legends no matter how early they are introduced or no matter who brings them up.

[HeavyHitter]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

^
I just glanced at that page and I’m wondering if some posts were deleted as I didn’t see any DNR accusations………. just color timing *queries*.
Seems to me that somebody cleaned up their act(s) after the fact.

Yep - looks like the mods deleted some posts.

[Ben]

To make matters worse, level headed and intelligent members of our forum have gone over to AVS to try and calmly speak the truth in the Godfather threads and are subsequently having their posts deleted and being banned from the forum because of it. I guess the management over there prefers FUD to truth and drama over calm, reasonable discourse. I'm sure its all very "scientific."

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Ben

I couldn't agree more, Penton. If The Prince of Darkness doesn't ring any bells, it might be a good idea to shut one's pie hole in a public forum...

For film aficionados on blu-ray.com that aren’t aware of who Gordon Willis is (which is fine) but, are more interested in learning something constructive about him and The Godfather Trilogy, rather than bashing the upcoming Blu-ray release…..or anyone remotely associated with the project, let me say that Gordon W. is considered to be one THE most influential cinematographers of the ‘70’s.

He was one of the first to introduce the technique that actors, rather than the camera should move, while lighting should take center stage to create the mood. He also was one of the first innovators to use a soft overhead light source, esp. with regards to The Godfather II which rendered the actors in a subdued lighting and allowed their eyes to go dark.

I haven’t viewed the film presentations since 1990, nor have I seen the upcoming Blu-ray set, so I’m intrigued to see how well the extremely qualified personnel involved in this restoration and subsequent Blu-ray release accomplished bringing the dark scenes with soft lighting to the home theater enthusiast. I would venture a guess that it was not an easy task.

Perhaps RAH can chime in as to the technical challenges involved.

In regards to original creative intent, Gordon W. gave an interview back in the day and admitted that the only photographic issue that he and F.F.C. didn't really agree upon was the soft light. Obviously, for the original theatrical presentation, F.F.C. relented to the wishes of his cinematographer.

Years later in retrospect, students of these films know that Gordon W. sometimes wonders/admits that he may have ‘gone too far’ on the dark stuff.
Here is a little primer to whet your appetites on the lenser extraordinaire before your Blu-ray sets arrive in the mail……………..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AbchmWS5jIU

^
Ben, there’s even a short commentary in there from Connie Hall during one of the scenes with the actors in the foreground with the windows in the background overlooking Lake Tahoe which must have been an absolute nightmare to get right………..by “right” I mean to achieve some kind of detail in both planes without bleeding.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Ben

To make matters worse, level headed and intelligent members of our forum have gone over to AVS to try and calmly speak the truth in the Godfather threads and are subsequently having their posts deleted and being banned from the forum

lol,
That’s like getting banned from hell.

At least in regards to the HDM software forum there.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by 4K2K

Do you mean that it has had lots of DNR and the faces look waxy? Or do you mean it has had no DNR or similar processing/smoothing at all?

I’d would rather not comment any further and see if some *scientific experts* hang themselves with their self-gratuitous critical comments when that Blu-ray title becomes available.

Especially read the next to the last paragraph here which is applicable……………………
https://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.p...postcount=5217

[Bobby Henderson]

For film aficionados on blu-ray.com that aren’t aware of who Gordon Willis is (which is fine) but, are more interested in learning something constructive about him and The Godfather Trilogy, rather than bashing the upcoming Blu-ray release…..or anyone remotely associated with the project, let me say that Gordon W. is considered to be one THE most influential cinematographers of the ‘70’s.

I was an Illustration major at School of Visual Arts, and took some film courses as electives. I really wish I could have been there when Gordon Willis arrived to raise SVA's film department to a higher level. I had already graduated when Willis started teaching there. But it made me feel better for spending all that money to learn there. A lot of great artists, illustrators, graphic designers and filmmakers have learned and taught at SVA. The school may not have quite the same reputation as NYU, but it is getting there.

[Alan Gordon]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Geez, I was being facetious with the color tone thing, I figured though that DNR accusations with this title (as well as any other future title) are inevitable over there – so with that part of my post I was indeed being intentionally prophetic.
I didn’t realize that somebody had actually started ripping on the color of the Godfather Blu-ray stuff.
First they don’t give F.F.C. a break on Bram Stoker’s Dracula (and his original intentions – despite verification from a caretaker for the film) and now they’re attacking da Godfather?
For cripes sakes, the thing hasn’t even streeted yet.

BTW, the comments I made were in respect to a DVDBeaver review (with screenshots) which has become quite the subject of discussion here on Blu-ray.com as well (as Ben has already mentioned!). Though, from reading the thread here, I see that Peter M. Bracke (whose reviews I used to respect back when he was reviewing DVDs, but generally ignore when it comes to Blu-ray) from HighDefDigest has also jumped on the bandwagon as well.

I haven't seen the Blu-ray editions myself (heck, I've never seen the films), and it may be anywhere from a few weeks to a couple of months before I can pick them up, but I do have a few things I want to say about the discussion.

The aforementioned DVDBeaver reviews (with screenshots) appear at the following:

"The Godfather"

"The Godfather II"

The Godfather III: Revenge Of Sophia

The Godfather Collection

Now, I'm not lending credence to screen captures, and I'm certainly not going against the people who say THIS is how the films should look like, BUT I do think what's throwing people off is that the Blu-ray editions DO show a "brightened" effect compared to the DVDs, and while one could easily imagine some films being brightened up by the restoration process, the SD DVD caps of the films imply a dark and dreary world which seems appropriate for these stories. Now, if one were to look at the screen shots for "The Godfather III", one might even notice a "drearier" look compared to the SD DVD shots.

So, we have the complete opposite situation than what we had when people started complaining about FFC's "Bram Stoker's Dracula" since they were complaining that it was "darkened" and "The Godfather" films have them complaining it's been lightened.

Ben has brought up some VERY good points on this issue's thread here on Blu-ray.com, but I do understand why people might be inclined to believe so, in this case, much more so than I can when people were complaining about Dracula... as it makes more sense to me that BSD, when done RIGHT, would be darker than what has been released before, than with these films which appear more "brightened".

Again, I'm not really agreeing with the people complaining about it (heck, other than screen shots, I simply have nothing to go on), I'm simply stating that I can understand why some people might be concerned about this issue. Hopefully, once everybody complaining about it actually gets these films, instead of looking at just "screen shots", the issue will calm down, and eventually die (unlike BSD).

~Alan

[Penton-Man]

Well I’m really confused now.
I thought that the “color tone” thing that people were talking about had to do with screenshots posted on AVS that showed something apparently like too much of a red hue in some scenes when comparing the Blu-ray to the DVD ?

Now, you’re tell me that the screenshot scientists are claiming that the Blu-ray editions are “brighter” than the DVD ?

Well you’ve got the film preservation person (RAH) posting right here on this thread so, I would ask him personally for an explanation rather than trusting the validity of somebody posting screenshots on the internet and then forming shoot-from-the-hip conclusions about creative intent or catering to any particular modern day demographic by the technicians involved in the project.
Also, even if the comparisons are valid, why is everyone working under the assumption that the DVD is the gold standard for an accurate assessment of the color grading of the original source material of this or any other title for that matter ?
I will say that theoretically, contrast per se should not be an issue (in HD vs SD comparisons) except for the fact that I think operators use 0 ire black levels for HD work, vs. 7.5 units for SD……..or at least they used to.

Short of seeing the film master of the titles running side by side with the Blu-ray editions (which I doubt I will ever get the opportunity to view), I’ll trust the word of people that have worked on this project before forming any conclusions.

My gut feeling is that even if some Godfather Blu-ray scenes truly show more luminance compared to the old DVD’s, then it is probably the result of technical reasons (given the sources) that people aren’t privy to yet as this whole restoration thing was a long work in progress.

But some people love to engage in *scientific* forensic discussions based upon screenshots and then proceed to form unfounded conclusions; otherwise, what would they do with themselves if you took away their screenshot toys?

P.S.
And that guy on that thread you linked me to should learn some manners!