"Club Penton" - Ask questions to Hollywood insider "Penton-Man"

[Uxi]

Originally Posted by mikey p

I don't remember him ever saying anything positive about HD DVD, he was always bad mouthing Blu Ray, that's what pushed me over the edge.

Definitely. I'd say it was the Microsoft employees at AVS who made me much more likely to give Blu-ray a fair shake since they were so vehement and in lock step against it, in a way that only inspired skepticism. Then, try out the PS3 and it's not only a good player, but a GREAT one and I never looked back. Took me 3 months after my move to even unpack my 360 again.

[DaViD Boulet]

Originally Posted by HeavyHitter

I've heard several insiders tell me that the PS3 puts out a reference 1080p/24 image in every aspect. I've heard some of the standalones are being tweaked (even in default) settings to make the image appear better...but in all reality they are just altering the source of the image.

owing and loving the PS3, I can attest that the PS3 is an outstanding device.

However, having auditioned the Panny BD30, BD50, and now just purchased the sony 550, I can say confidently that all three stand-alone players exceed the PS3 in audio quality over HDMI. Yes, the PS3 decodes to LPCM. but even the Panny BD50 sounded *really* better when also decoding to LPCM over HDMI.

I'm not sure I see any "improvement" in PQ with the Sony 550, though my subjective impression with the Panny BD50 was that it's PQ was slightly improved. But whatever difference there might have been it was so subtle I couldn't even quantify it.

Not sure if the PS3 is adding some additional processing when it does the audio extraction, but for whatever reason, it's audio transparency isn't on par with these other stand-alones.

[PeterTHX]

Not sure if the PS3 is adding some additional processing when it does the audio extraction, but for whatever reason, it's audio transparency isn't on par with these other stand-alones.

I would have to disagree with that.

[DaViD Boulet]

If you are experiencing issues, David, it could be your receiver.

I was as surprised as anyone. I've been and am a strong supporter of the PS3 so it should be clear that my comments are objective as far as the PS3 and "standalones" are concerned.

In the case where I reviewed the Panny BD50 for dvdfile, I was honestly stunned by how much bette the Panny sounded in my system. suspecting that it was the difference betwen LPCM over HDMI and bitstreaming the advanced audio (ie, receiver difference), I set the Panny BD50 to decode to LPCM just like the PS3. And it *still* sounded superior to the PS3. I also had the Panny set to "direct" so that it would not intermix menu content into the primary soundtrack... which is something I wasn't able to figure out how to get the PS3 to do. Perhaps the difference I was hearing had to do with the additional audio-mixing stages on the BD-J titles I was watching?

In any case, the difference was there and was real. After listening to my PS3 as my primary player for almost a year, I know what it sounds like and I didn't have any difficulty in hearing that the Panny clearly sounded better, for whatever reason. So much so that this was the genesis for my motivation to find a replacement for the PS3 as soon as a decent 2.0 standalone came within an affordable reach.

[DaViD Boulet]

Maxpower,

quick additional question... how would you compare the video quality of the PS3 to that of the new Sony 550? I was torn betwen the Sony 550 and the Panny BD55.

thanks!

[neo_reloaded]

How do some players offer better video playback than others? I mean I guess I could see a discrepancy if we're talking 1080p over component since that involves a conversion to analog plus the pulldown from 24p; there is no exact algorithm to follow so different implementations could have different results from a subjective standpoint.

But 1080p24 over HDMI is fully digital - wouldn't performance rest solely in the viewing screen?

[neo_reloaded]

That doesn't make much sense to me. There should only be one way to decode any MPEG-2/AVC/VC-1 encode - the correct way. Outputting in native format on a digital-only path should always have the same results (assuming the player can perform the operations correctly and quickly enough, but I don't think that's in question here).

In these double-blind studies, do people cite what benefits they think one presentation offers over another? I'd be really curious to hear.

[DaViD Boulet]

Neo,

it's not so cut and dry. BDs are recorded with only 1/2 the color space of the two color difference channels... that's color resolution that has to get interpolated upon decoding, and various decoders do it better/worse (just like with DVD). There can also be additional differences like how the players handle blacker than black, and how they might take advantage of the added color space of HDMI 1.3.

[Jeff Kleist]

Originally Posted by neo_reloaded

That doesn't make much sense to me. There should only be one way to decode any MPEG-2/AVC/VC-1 encode - the correct way. Outputting in native format on a digital-only path should always have the same results (assuming the player can perform the operations correctly and quickly enough, but I don't think that's in question here).

In these double-blind studies, do people cite what benefits they think one presentation offers over another? I'd be really curious to hear.

One way MPEG in all of its flavors achieves compression is by removing frames of data and having the decompressor guess what the frames should look like (oversimplification). Some hardware guesses better than others (among other things)

[Esox50]

Originally Posted by HeavyHitter

I've heard several insiders tell me that the PS3 puts out a reference 1080p/24 image in every aspect. I've heard some of the standalones are being tweaked (even in default) settings to make the image appear better...but in all reality they are just altering the source of the image.

So the folks at PHL who helped develop the Panny players are cooking the image? Sorry, I don't buy it.

Look I have a PS3 AND a Panny BD35, and I can tell you the video on the Panny is slightly sharper and there's just something about the colors that looks more "silky and pure" to me on the Panny. More organic/real if you will; that's the best way I could describe it. If you read my previous posts in this thread on this matter, you'll see I'm talking about maybe a 5% (more or less) improvement.

[Esox50]

Originally Posted by Maxpower1987

That is strange, of all the tests we have done, the PS3 wins audio tests, but loses video tests, and these are done under pretty stringent conditions!

We even got into contact with someone from DTS asking them how they got the PS3 to sound so good with DTS-MA, he said the SCE engineers had the single best implementation of their gold standard spec.

I've already made my own comparisons known regarding the Panny vs the Ps3 re video. The Panny is hands down better. That is not to say the PS3 is a slouch though, its just that the Panny is slightly better (see my previous post in this thread).

Your comments on the audio are interesting. You see, I still maintain something is wrong with my PS3 on the audio side, and this happened on the DTS-MA update. Even TrueHD lost some quality after the DTS-MA update (which makes no sense to me). I tried everything & finally gave up, and started bitstreaming to my pre/pro upon purchasing the Panny BD35 last weekend. As it stands right now, the Panny has better A/V than the PS3. Again, the video improvement is at the margin. The audio is night & day (except for Iron Man... @ whomever did that disc).

[Esox50]

Originally Posted by DaViD Boulet

quick additional question... how would you compare the video quality of the PS3 to that of the new Sony 550? I was torn betwen the Sony 550 and the Panny BD55.

David, if you are using HDMI for audio, then don't forget about the Panny BD35 as well. You might be able to save $100 there as the video is the same between the 55 and the 35.

[Mr. Cinema]

Are the Panasonic BD35 and BD55 equal in terms of both audio and video quality?

[Jeff Kleist]

The 35 and the 55 share the same basic chipset (Panasonic UniPhier) yes. The 55 adds BD-Live, 7.1 analog out and some other features

[saprano]

Originally Posted by DaViD Boulet

I was as surprised as anyone. I've been and am a strong supporter of the PS3 so it should be clear that my comments are objective as far as the PS3 and "standalones" are concerned.

In the case where I reviewed the Panny BD50 for dvdfile, I was honestly stunned by how much bette the Panny sounded in my system. suspecting that it was the difference betwen LPCM over HDMI and bitstreaming the advanced audio (ie, receiver difference), I set the Panny BD50 to decode to LPCM just like the PS3. And it *still* sounded superior to the PS3. I also had the Panny set to "direct" so that it would not intermix menu content into the primary soundtrack... which is something I wasn't able to figure out how to get the PS3 to do. Perhaps the difference I was hearing had to do with the additional audio-mixing stages on the BD-J titles I was watching?

In any case, the difference was there and was real. After listening to my PS3 as my primary player for almost a year, I know what it sounds like and I didn't have any difficulty in hearing that the Panny clearly sounded better, for whatever reason. So much so that this was the genesis for my motivation to find a replacement for the PS3 as soon as a decent 2.0 standalone came within an affordable reach.

Did you level match? just because the receiver or player was louder doesn't mean anything. if you want you can also turn up the ps3's volume control.

but ether way when your doing comparisons you must level match, i was watching the hulk and its one of the best blu-ray soundtracks i ever heard. theres nothing wrong with the ps3's audio.....or video for that matter.

[saprano]

Also when the ps3 or any other player sends out PCM, does the receivers DAC's still get used?

[horseflesh]

Sorry for butting in on Penton's thread,but seeing as we're on the subject....

I'm soon going to be looking for a stand-alone BD player. I've had a US PS3 for about 18 months and been very happy with it, but it will soon be going into the kids' playroom.
I'm considering the BD55 and the BDP-550. I expect there's not much between them performance/spec wise, but my issue is with playback.
I'm in Ireland, so my DVD collection is a mixture of regions; probably 80% Region 1, 20% Region 2. I know the Sony 350 (and so presumably the 550) can be easily made multi-region for DVD, but can the Panasonic player also?

[DaViD Boulet]

Did you level match?

When comparing the sound of lossless PCM, TrueHD, and DTS HD MA over HDMI (even when decoded to PCM), there should be no change to audio level as you're supposed to be getting a bit-for-bit copy of the original sound file.

If there is any change in level whatsoever between two players handling the same lossless stream, then that would be indicative that some device was altering the signal and adding its own processing stage to the audio. And that would be bad period.

[Anthony P]

How do some players offer better video playback than others? I mean I guess I could see a discrepancy if we're talking 1080p over component since that involves a conversion to analog plus the pulldown from 24p. But 1080p24 over HDMI is fully digital - wouldn't performance rest solely in the viewing screen?

you see that is where I am of opposite mind. For lossless audio I would think they would need to be much more similar. But the same way you can "see a discrepancy if we're talking 1080p over component since that involves a conversion to analog" you are missing that going from lossy to a full frame adds "guesswork" like going from digital to analog. The only way a lossless encode (audio) would end up with a different digital signal on both devices is if
1) one or both devices don't decode the audio correctly (at wich point I would say you can't call them lossless
2) one or both devices do some post decoding manipulation (like dialog normalization, pumping up the volume....) which would mean you do get a lossless decode but that is not what you are listening to.
3) if there is an issue with either your HDMI cable or HDMI connectors on your device

after all, if the same DACs get the exact same LPCM then they should decode it exactly the same way, and a lossless decode should give you the same PCM

as for video, it is not lossless, so each device tries to decompress it to the best it can. Instead of trying to get technical, let me try and explain it a different way. 1/3 gives us .33 (if all we can do is save at two decimal places) now 1/3*3=.33*3=.99 while we all would agree that 3/3=1 so depending on restrictions and how I do the math I can end up with two distinct values and in a way they are both right, for example if I have a store and I mark everything up by 1/3 then my 1$ item is sold for 1.33 and if the person buys 3 of them they would pay 3.99 and I would not charge them 4$.

This is in effect what happens when decoding video, there are i frames which explain all pixels (but in groups) followed by p and b frames which only represent part of them (the ones that change). since the p and b are only approximate and only part of the frame there can be slight differences between one device and the other (think of the math example given above) also since i frames need to define all the 1080x1920 pixels they are also very restricted in what they can bring to the table.

Even once you are past the pure decoding no matter how well it is done you also have the reality that for most devices there will be some post processing, for a very blatant example look at the first Samsung BD player, the device could only decode in 1080i and then that 1080i signal passed through a second chip that changed it back to 1080p which was then outputted by the player.

[Esox50]

Originally Posted by Jeff Kleist

The 35 and the 55 share the same basic chipset (Panasonic UniPhier) yes. The 55 adds BD-Live, 7.1 analog out and some other features

The 35 has BD Live as well. I haven't tried it though. I've been too busy watching all of my Blu-rays again since I got the BD35.