"Club Penton" - Ask questions to Hollywood insider "Penton-Man"

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Doctorossi

Stepping radically far away from inter-internet politics for a moment, I've got a left-field rhetorical a-brewin'. To wit:

Is it just me or is a single-tire rule in MotoGP, of all places, the stupidest idea ever?! We're in the bleeding-edge prototype series, ostensibly designed to push the envelope of product development, and what is our limiting factor? Tires. So we're going to eliminate development of the part that needs development the most?! We're going to risk alienating future developmental competition around this part?! WHAT ARE YOU DOING? Yeah, yeah- "limiting top speed"- blah, blah, blah... Unless your stated purpose for/philosophy of the series is but an utter joke, find another way!

Thanks. Had to get that off my chest.

Oh Lord, you do know that you just tempted some of the Star Trek folks from Jeff's thread to come over here and 'engage' me with the appropriate YouTube link that they can find. I hope there isn't any Triumph the insult dog skit at some MotoGP that I am unaware of.

I'm running for cover.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Doctorossi

Maybe they could tap a little off, drop it in a baggie and mail it to scienceland to apply as they see fit.

Wait till they figure out that vfx guys blur grain sometimes, rather than outright getting rid of it (dnr).

The INHUMANITY !

[Doctorossi]

Sorry, Penton. I accept all the blame. I'll throw myself on those YouTube videos for you!

"Lone Nut Theory!" I operate alone! Deny all knowledge!

[Grubert]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Grub, see my post above as to the 'noble' appearing title and introduction concerning Foxy's thread that I just made to Oliver.
Often times, in reality, that thread just serves as a guise by some to bash movies that they think are not worthy of "nomination".

Goes with the territory. Somebody likes a transfer, others do not. People argue about it, sometimes a consensus is found, sometimes it's not.

I myself don't debate disc transfer quality endlessly. But I can see why other people would do it. Just like with Trek mythology.

Grubert, I realize that this subject is close to your heart………
http://www.nosolohd.com/viewtopic.ph...st=0&sk=t&sd=a

and has been so for a long time ^.

Obviously. If I didn't care about picture quality, I'd be watching DVD now.

And that thread you linked to was a note on the article Bill Hunt wrote a year ago to raise awareness of the grain-vs-DNR issue.

http://www.thedigitalbits.com/mytwocentsa155.html

Originally Posted by Bill Hunt

To quote Han Solo, "I've got a BAD feeling about this." I suspect THIS issue is going to be the new anamorphic widescreen, the new black bars. This is the issue that enthusiasts and the studios are going to have to make an effort to explain to consumers who are new to Blu-ray and high-definition in general. Unfortunately, what seems to happening right now is that the studio marketing folks are conducting focus groups with new Blu-ray consumers, who are saying they want perfect pictures every time. As a result, a few of the Hollywood studios are currently A) using excessive Digital Noise Reduction to completely scrub film grain from their Blu-ray releases, or B) not releasing as many older catalog titles as they might otherwise for fear that people will complain about grain. Some studios are even going so far as to scrub the grain out of NEW releases that have been shot on film. Case in point: New Line's Pan's Labyrinth Blu-ray Disc. When I saw this film in the theaters, it was dark and gritty. The grain was a deliberate stylistic choice - part of the artistic character of the film. New Line's Blu-ray, on the other hand, is sparkly and glossy - almost entirely grain-free. So much fine detail has been removed that the faces of characters actually look waxy. Everyone looks like a plastic doll. It's worth noting that the European release doesn't suffer the same fate. One can only assume that there are fewer marketing fingers in the pie over there?

This isn't just a Blu-ray issue, it's going to affect ALL high-definition presentations of older films, if we allow it to. Film enthusiasts (and those at the studios who actually CARE about and respect the integrity of older films) need to really start educating people on this subject - new Blu-ray consumers, friends and family, fellow studio employees. FILM IS SUPPOSED TO LOOK LIKE FILM. Older titles on Blu-ray are NOT supposed to look perfect, as if they were shot today on video! The Blu-ray presentation should replicate, as closely as possible, the best original theatrical experience of the film. THAT'S the goal. I'll tell you right now, this is an important issue, just as anamorphic enhancement and presenting films in their original aspect ratios on DVD were before it. As we did with those issues, you better believe it's something the staff here at The Digital Bits will take up as a crusade with the Hollywood studios if it becomes necessary. So you studio folks... let's just say that you'd better get this one right, or you'll definitely be hearing about it from us in the months ahead (and, we suspect, from many others as well).

The fact that all what he said is still 100% valid a year later, speaks volumes.

And anyway I don't know what you expected to find by googling "Grubert DNR".

But, I don’t much care if you disagree with me as to the credibility or industry influence as to some threads on the internet

See above. A year ago, studios were releasing some titles with heavy filtering. A year later, studios are releasing some titles with heavy filtering. Just read our site's reviews on A History of Violence or The Wedding Singer and you'll see it's not merely a matter of frothing-at-the-mouth self-appointed scientists. There is a real problem there, and it is not going away.

I don't see forums as a way to influence studios. Just an information resource so that people have more data to decide whether to buy a given movie or not.

just as I didn’t care that “Harmonica” posted that nonsense about thee old Technicolor Digital Intermediates somewhere half way down that page linked above, in other words, his rant was wasted energy.

"Harmonica" is a cinematographer himself.

P.S.
Is Harmonica using the “F” word in Spanish in that post?

The F-word has a multitude of different meanings in Spanish. When you say "esto me jode", you're saying "this pi$$es me off."

[Jeff Kleist]

NASCAR fans are the only ones that have good youtube videos unfortunately

Best I can do on short notice

http://www.hulu.com/watch/24264/high...ht#s-p12-so-i0

(Timecode 37:50)

Highlander combines nerds AND MotoGP, and shows if one is trying to hide their immortality, participating in dangerous very public sports is not the best of ideas

[Doctorossi]

Originally Posted by Grubert

I don't see forums as a way to influence studios. Just an information resource so that people have more data to decide whether to buy a given movie or not.

Probably sage words.

[Oliver K]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Well hell, that’s all you gotta say.
It would be my pleasure.

I’ll have a talk with Smitty.
These people really have good intentions and put out the best available product they can, that circumstances allow.

Thanks I don't doubt that they want to do a good job so I hope they get a chance to do things properly the next time around.

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Truly…….. the joke going around was that maybe the post house should have a plastic or PVC pipe installed from one non linear color grading suite to the other to transport the excess grain from one machine to the other machine across the hall.

You know…….think green and recycle everything these days.

My first thought was that they just should have switched cameras when the respective movies were shot

And if you ever get around to perfect that grain recycling idea I would like to have a helping or two (large format, light grain) of it for Patton and Zulu

[Oliver K]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Foxy amuses me. He essentially has his own futile crusade going against *dnr* and just uses a more ‘noble’ title and introduction than does michel of “the other thread”, who is more pragmatic and actually far more knowledgeable on the subject.

That *science* ‘Grain gives me a Resolution Boner’ thread is laced with inaccurate observations and speculations concerning grain.
Somebody once sent me a PM with a link that Josh Zyber posted about that thread where even he (an avid AVS supporter) didn’t believe that much of the observations on that thread were accurate. It may still even be posted somewhere on that thread unless Josh went back after the fact and deleted it….or it was deleted by the administration over there.

Both Michel and Foxy in my opinion are good people that do not have an agenda and if Foxy does lack the knowledge that others have he is also humble enough to admit it.

Michel might be a bit too passionate about things from time to time and I think this got him banned in the Salo thread over here when he chose some of his words less than wisely but he has no problem to go against the grain even when it is not fashionable to do so. I still remember when he did that with Baraka when it came to the question of DNR, that should even garner him some respect over here

[Doctorossi]

Originally Posted by Oliver K

he has no problem to go against the grain

Uh... so to speak...

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Oliver K

Both Michel and Foxy in my opinion are good people that do not have an agenda and if Foxy does lack the knowledge that others have he is also humble enough to admit it.

Michel might be a bit too passionate about things from time to time and I think this got him banned in the Salo thread over here when he chose some of his words less than wisely but he has no problem to go against the grain even when it is not fashionable to do so. I still remember when he did that with Baraka when it came to the question of DNR, that should even garner him some respect over here

Michel went after one of our reviewers unmercifully like an attack dog and just wouldn’t let it go……and that sort of thing don’t set well with me……esp. since some of our reviewers do a lot of work behind the scenes that you guys never hear about in regards to adding to your viewing pleasure of this forum.

Perhaps someday he will be invited back once he serves his time in *science* purgatory.

P.S.
Yes, he was one of the few over there that 'got it right' regarding the mythology of the usage of dnr with Baraka.
So, a tip of the hat for that.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Grubert

And anyway I don't know what you expected to find by googling "Grubert DNR".

Actually, that post was passed onto me because of the jab at Technicolor and it has sat on my computer for months. It’s just a coincidence that you were the moderator.

Small world.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Grubert

"Harmonica" is a cinematographer himself.

lol, just about everyone on the ‘red one forum’ or cml is a 'cinematographer', the point is that I can goll-durn guarantee you that “Harmonica” didn’t sit in on the color grading sessions of Seabiscuit, Kill Bill or The Good Shepherd so, he doesn't know what the heck he's talking about if I'm getting the drift of the translation right.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Grubert

The fact that all what he (Bill) said is still 100% valid a year later, speaks volumes.

Yes, one post by Bill Hunt is of equivalent influence as hundreds of thousands of posts by grain maniacs on *science*.

Seriously, I don't think that it is "100% valid a year later" as you say, as things have changed since then........namely, increased awareness of artifact issues, swapping out professional displays in post and authoring houses, etc. - all due to people that do have the influence to make changes happen.

[Grubert]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Actually, that post was passed onto me because of the jab at Technicolor and it has sat on my computer for months. It’s just a coincidence that you were the moderator.

Small world.

Wow. A post related to Technicolor is made on an obscure HT Spanish-language forum (the most popular HT-related ones are mundodvd.com and dvdenlared.com - look them up on alexa) and red flags are raised thousands of miles away. ECHELON has nothing on your friends.

[Deciazulado]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Is Harmonica using the “F” word in Spanish in that post?

J is the Word

[Robert Harris]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Michel went after one of our reviewers unmercifully like an attack dog and just wouldn’t let it go……and that sort of thing don’t set well with me……esp. since some of our reviewers do a lot of work behind the scenes that you guys never hear about in regards to adding to your viewing pleasure of this forum.

Perhaps someday he will be invited back once he serves his time in *science* purgatory.

P.S.
Yes, he was one of the few over there that 'got it right' regarding the mythology of the usage of dnr with Baraka.
So, a tip of the hat for that.

Michel is far too bright an individual to be paying extended penance on "exile island," and possesses far too much information that can be helpful here. It may be time for an olive branch. Opinionated? Absolutely. Possibly in occasional need of self-editing? Likewise. But that's part of being extremely passionate about the cause. Usually correct in findings? Yes. I'd suggest a dove heading toward Europe ASAP.

RAH

[Penton-Man]

We will have to give that proposal some serious consideration.
Perhaps he could be moved from prison into one of those Court Appointed Programs if he agrees to abide by the conditions set down by the judge. Conditions such as …..

1. I will not be persistently aggressive toward Blu-ray.com reviewers because I realize that they are doing the best job (thankless for the most part) they can, under the tight time constraints they have to work under.

2. I will not engage in any futile crusader campaigns for this technique or against that technique because time and experience have shown that sort of behavior to be ineffectual and often counter-productive. Not to the mention the fact that such campaigns are just plain tedious for other socially well-adjusted members to read who visit here to be enthusiastic about their chosen hobby.
(On a personal note, it amazes me that the tone, mindset and outlook by other enthusiasts involved in other hobbies such as motorcycle racing or mountain biking is so much more positive than the mindset of geeks on some audio video forums, i.e. the “we was robbed, let’s form a lynch mob” mentality…………maybe the difference is related to a camaraderie thing amongst the more physically active hobbies).

3. I think that screenshots suck for critical analysis of digital processing artifacts for Blu-ray movies and can and are, easily and often misused by hobbyists when their real value lies in giving a good general idea of the appearance of a Blu-ray movie. I know that Penton has written extensively on the subject but I also agree with one of the reviewers that lives on exile island (voluntarily) regarding this matter which he (Josh Zyber) recently summed up nicely………..
"A movie image is comprised of grain. That grain pattern changes in every single frame, 24 times a second. Persistence of vision contributes greatly to our perception of detail in the image. When you extract a screen cap, you're only capturing the detail and grain present on that particular frame at that particular moment in time. A single screen cap does not capture all of the detail and grain visible to the eye during regular playback.

Screen caps are useful for certain things, like aspect ratio framing and color. But they're simply not a reliable indicator of how much detail a moving image will exhibit, or whether DNR was used. There are far too many photographic attributes that are easily mistaken for DNR in a screen cap, like soft focus, soft lighting, and certain lens choices used in the filming.

I haven't seen the Star Trek movie discs for myself yet, and will reserve judgement until I do. Until that time, I put no stock in screen caps to tell me anything meaningful about the picture quality on those discs." [END] Josh Zyber

also, I, michel, even agree with what Amir (condemned to 'exile island" for a life sentence) has stated about screenshots, such as those presented by “Whiggles” on the internet in the past…………namely, Amir's words - “compression can also cause or make EE worse. So using jpg images is not appropriate for analysis”

If one were to comply with the above ^ conditions, we would probably have little problem in commuting Michel's sentence and getting him into a positive court appointed work program here; otherwise, he can continue to eat old red ants on "exile island" as nourishment for awhile.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Grubert

Wow. A post related to Technicolor is made on an obscure HT Spanish-language forum...

You don’t understand because you are apparently unaware of the background of the case.
This 'issue' (Technicolor, Seabiscuit, Kill Bill) was quite the ‘talk of the town’ on a professional board back in the day and I imagine “Harmonica” from your tiny Spanish piece of heaven picked up on those unfounded accusations and posted something derogatory to that effect.

Speaking of Technicolor (well, actually “Technique” at the time) and HD masters and as I said before, how only a tiny handful of people have ever seen one, I believe that Stacy (Spears) has actually seen the HD master of Pirates of the Caribbean, Stacey being one of the very few people posting on any internet forums, ever having had the opportunity to directly compare a Blu-ray with its immediate source.

P.S.
On an ironic historical note, the misguided online crusade against Technicolor (then Technique) was when I first had the 'pleasure' of meeting michel, who also instigated that particular campaign for which some people at both TDI (Technicolor Digital Intermediates) and TCS (Technicolor Creative Services) still dislike him for.
I myself, am much more forgiving but, I also write up contracts, as above.

[sharkshark]

I'm sorry to wade into the fray, and I do understand (you've been mighty patient in the past) with your concerns about screen caps as the basis for PQ analysis.

That being said...

In that post you linked to on the Spanish forum (my, Grubert, you DO get around... ) the concern was with the discs Seabiscuit, Kill Bill and The Good Sheppard. Forgetting the silly politics, were there in fact any issues with those transfers that now, a year later, that you'd yourself comment upon?

Ditto for Trek (that you've not seen, right?), or Good/Bad/Ugly...

I agree that screaming "DNR" can, in many cases, be the AV equivalent of calling Wolf, especially when many have no idea how to even tell a wolf apart from, say, a canoe, or a sickly wombat. That said, there is, equally, a concern that the messenger is so reviled that the message is ignored... Sometimes, as it were, a Patton is as bad looking in motion, on a decent screen, as it sounds.

RAH says something looks terrible and DNR'd, I'm going to believe him - call it based on his authority, call it what you will, but I'll buy his negative reviews almost any time. However, and I may be missing them, I've seen lots in this thread of late criticising other boards and members, but not a lot of criticism or concern about the policies in place that may contribute to the transfers being less than they could be.

We just want the best that we can get, period. Studios have to worry about costs, and condition of neg, etc. We want what's on the film preserved at home, and many, many of us (myself included) are simply ignorant to the real hard work involved in getting something on disc that doesn't look like messy crap (TOO much grain in the transfer, emphasised by the transfer process that highlights grain in a way that projection never would, versus say a plasticy mess that robs us all of "film-like" presentation).

I worry, respectfully, that the anti-screencap screed may overlook some nasty transfers that are robbing us consumers of what we deserve when we buy a product in HD. But then again, I'm a worrier, as you've pointed out in the past...

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Oliver K

Hi Penton,
will do, even without a link to the Deutsches Film- und Fernsehmuseum event

That’s good to hear because I prefer to post German news in English anyway, so that, all English-reading only cineaphiles can understand ……………
http://www.thelocal.de/society/20090514-19281.html

I expect you and Torsten (heck, you can run over there during lunchtime) to keep a close eye on the situation for fans of the film like….SquidPuppet, Deci, pro-bassonist, Josh and other interested members here whose handles I don’t recall offhand.