"Club Penton" - Ask questions to Hollywood insider "Penton-Man"

[FourToedStatue]

I know this is becoming a broken record but how will Sony gauge the base if they decide to start releasing those titles? Will they be viewing how the other studios tv shows perform, or are they waiting for the entire blu ray customer base to hit a specific number?

[jbracciante]

Originally Posted by 4K2K

Is it possible for it (the PS3) to be changed to be able to play 50i/p content like the US Samsung, Momitsu, LG & Oppo players can? The European PS3's can play 50, 60 & 24hz content so couldn't a firmware update allow the US ones to play the content back too?

Originally Posted by jbracciante

What he said. There are many US display devices (projectors, computer monitors, select tv's) that support 1080i50. Sony's logic NO TV's support it so why bother adding it, doesnt really hold up here.

Originally Posted by 4K2K

With US Blu-ray players like the Samsung ones it doesn't matter whether or not someone's US TV supports 50hz. US Samsung players play 50hz content and convert it to 60hz, so it's playable on all US TVs. The PS3s firmware could be changed to add this option too, another option could be added to output directly in 50hz too for if your US TV or display accepts that - which some do.

50hz is part of the Blu-ray specification, and playback of 50hz content is supported by other US players like those I mentioned.

Originally Posted by Jeff Kleist

Those wondering why US players don't support 50hz

It's a form of region coding for hardware. US decks are cheaper than their foreign counterparts. By disabling 50hz it helps prevent exporting them.

Hopefully PAL territories will stop using 50hz/25fps in the near future so the problem will go away on the software side.

So what we've established is 50hz isn't mandatory and is often omitted to prevent exporting. BUT It'd be REALLY REALLY awesome to have for those of us that own 50hz encoded blu-rays in the US, and it won't negatively effect people that don't have 50hz encoded blu-rays. (of course in a perfect world, the European studios will stop releasing these, but as of now they haven't) Is there any chance we have a shot at getting this Mr. Penton-Man?

[Penton-Man]

Quick heads-up to all SoCal cinephiles.
There is a fine upcoming event hosted by Rob (Hummel) who gave Saturday’s Keynote at last year’s Reel Thing (and worked at Sony Pictures in the past)…………
http://www.amianet.org/events/theree...abstracts.html

It’s this upcoming week so you’ve got no time to dilly-dally with ordering your tickets! (quickest being online, of course)………
http://www.oscars.org/events-exhibit...lmformats.html < turn on your computer’s speakers if they are switched off.

P.S.
Rob, at his candid best on 2k vs 4k scanning
http://www.hdexpo.net/virtual/expert...ummel_300.html

^ Good stuff for everyone.

Meanwhile….Kowabunga! – while I’m out of the office!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M80mw...eature=related

[4K2K]

Originally Posted by jbracciante

So what we've established is 50hz isn't mandatory and is often omitted to prevent exporting.

This is the Blu-ray specification as far as I can tell:

http://www.blu-raydisc.com/Assets/Do...2955-15269.pdf

Video streams shall be MPEG-2 video format (ISO/IEC 13818-2) compliant, MPEG-4 AVC video format (ISO/IEC 14496-10) compliant or SMPTE VC-1 video format compliant.
The video formats shown in Figure 3-3 can be used for BD-ROM video streams.

HD:
1920x1080x59.94-i, 50-i (16:9)
1920x1080x24-p, 23.976-p (16:9)
1440x1080x59.94-i, 50-i (16:9) MPEG-4 AVC / SMPTE VC-1 only
1440x1080x24-p, 23.976-p (16:9) MPEG-4 AVC / SMPTE VC-1 only
1280x720x59.94-p, 50-p (16:9)
1280x720x24-p, 23.976-p (16:9)

SD:
720x480x59.94-i (4:3/16:9)
720x576x50-i (4:3/16:9)

I don't see anywhere in that document where it says 50-i is optional. Unless it's the words "can be used"? But if so, wouldn't that make all the other formats shown above optional in players too?

Also, if it's to prevent exporting of Blu-ray players/PS3s, well isn't the Blu-ray region coding stopping them getting exported, as well as things like customs charges? There's not much point importing a US player into Europe to play European releases when region coding would prevent many titles, including catalogue titles from being playable.

Also in the above document it says:

1.1.2 Understanding Basic Issues (Required Specifications)
It will therefore be extremely important to design BD-ROM so that there is clear integration/continuity with DVD-Video

Continuity with DVD video - didn't many US DVD players have the ability to play PAL DVDs?

Understanding 3: Studio Perspective
...the burden on the production is getting heavier. Production needs to become more efficient.

Isn't requiring European studios to make 2 seperate encodes or do a format conversion from the original correct fps or frame size the opposite of making production more efficient, and against 1.1.2 which are required specifications?

Originally Posted by jbracciante

(of course in a perfect world, the European studios will stop releasing these, but as of now they haven't)

I actually disagree with this seeing as in a perfect world all players would be able to play existing content at it's intended rate, and all displays should accept such sources too - at the frame rate it was originally produced at, with no format conversions necessary. Releasing them at another rate will only lose quality. Would it be acceptable if it was the other way around and all European displays/players disabled 24 & 60hz and only allowed 25 & 50hz, so all worldwide releases had to be converted from 24 or 60Hz to either 25 or 50hz because of this? Wouldn't people in the USA complain about the unnecessary conversion of 24/60hz content to 25/50hz for USA releases because of European manufacturers disabling the capability of players/TVs made the same manufactures as others selling with the same functionality enabled?

Originally Posted by jbracciante

Is there any chance we have a shot at getting this Mr. Penton-Man?

I would like to know too please Penton. I think it would help consumers worldwide and the studios too, and allow better quality releases than if they had to do format conversions.

[Deciazulado]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

P.S.
Rob, at his candid best on 2k vs 4k scanning
http://www.hdexpo.net/virtual/expert...ummel_300.html

^ Good stuff for everyone.

That QT video should be required viewing for every member of Blu-ray.com

[Jeff Kleist]

I don't see anywhere in that document where it says 50-i is optional. Unless it's the words "can be used"? But if so, wouldn't that make all the other formats shown above optional in players too?

Also, if it's to prevent exporting of Blu-ray players/PS3s, well isn't the Blu-ray region coding stopping them getting exported, as well as things like customs charges? There's not much point importing a US player into Europe to play European releases when region coding would prevent many titles, including catalogue titles from being playable.

CAN be used. Not MUST be used. Content makers have the ability to use those formats. Don't forget also that European displays are vast majority multistandard. Virtually no US TV sets support PAL/50hz, and the number of people who buy imports is extraordinarily small, even among the enthusiast crowd. Modded players are extremely popular in Europe, and if US players played 50hz, then the modders would import them by the pallette, saving a lot of money. Do you understand that the demand in the US for 50hz playback is essentially nil taking in the big picture in the US? They're protecting their European divisions with no harm no foul here.

Continuity with DVD video - didn't many US DVD players have the ability to play PAL DVDs?

Generic Chinese ones yes. Major brand players, virtually none (Phillips, Magnavox etc all generic).

Isn't requiring European studios to make 2 seperate encodes or do a format conversion from the original correct fps or frame size the opposite of making production more efficient, and against 1.1.2 which are required specifications?

European studios that are selling outside of Europe as well do the discs at 24/60hz for everyone. Hollywood studios are doing 24/60hz for everyone Studios without extra-European rights are the only ones doing things at 50hz (I'm sure there are a few exceptions before someone corrects me). So they don't need to worry about doing it twice.

[JonBidinger]

I would love it if the PS3 would be able to support 1080i/50, although I don't see it happening. I would love to be able to import the UK release of Max Manus and the spanish release of [REC].

[mark antony]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Let's at least wait until it is formally announced for the U.S., o.k.

Hi penton, I wasn't expecting an announcement so quick!

Now that it has been, can you confirm whether it's a new transfer or the same one currently being used by the european studio's, as there seems to be a few issues with those that affects the picture on both versions and the sound on the longer version.

Thanks

M

[Alan Gordon]

Originally Posted by Jeff Kleist

I would recommend then, given that there's a lot of people wanting Sony TV properties on Blu, that the hopeful eventual releases contain rebates of some kind that don't require mutilating the Blu-ray. Cutting out tabs or UPCs is unacceptible to most collectors. A printed coupon would do the same job

I'm quite fond of how Disney is doing the "Snow White" coupon. Not that it matters to me since I won't be buying any Sony TV properties on DVD.

~Alan

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Deciazulado

That QT video should be required viewing for every member of Blu-ray.com

hah, I was really hoping that you would endorse the ‘surfer chick’ video clip too!

Anyway, the real sad part that Rob didn’t mention is the fact that all recent motion pictures shot in 35mm which have gone thru a 2k DI process are essentially locked into that 2k resolution, probably forever, despite the fact that the original camera negative boasted a resolution of 3k -4k (depending on the ASA of the film stock and whether it was anamorphic or S35).

What I’m getting at is that, in the majority of cases no conformed negative exists for a lot of the recent digital intermediate finished motion pictures, so you just can’t go back and rescan the film element in 4k (or even 6k) then color-correct, etc. like you could with restoring an old movie like Lawrence of Arabia, The Godfather, for instance.

These recent, modern day movies were basically assembled digitally with a lot of post work done to the 2K digital scans, so essentially it would be cost prohibitive as well as difficult to redo the whole motion picture in 4K, even if you had the money, time and the original filmmakers to guide the process.

The only real practical way to have protected the captured resolution of these recent (essentially this decade) D.I. finished 35mm motion pictures to future-proof for optimal future viewing given inevitable advances in theatrical and perhaps home exhibiton, was to have done a 4k D.I. in the first place, like with The Da Vinci Code, Angels & Demons, etc.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by mark antony

Hi penton, I wasn't expecting an announcement so quick!

Now that it has been, can you confirm whether it's a new transfer or the same one currently being used by the european studio's, as there seems to be a few issues with those that affects the picture on both versions and the sound on the longer version.

Thanks
M

Well, that gives plenty of time for the condemnation speculation(s) by the invariably non-enthusiastic ‘Blu-ray enthusiasts’ to fester for several weeks with negative cross-posting all over the internet.

Mark, I’m out of the office so, you’ll just have to wait for me to get back and check on it when I've got the time.

[Bobby Henderson]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

What I’m getting at is that, in the majority of cases no conformed negative exists for a lot of the recent digital intermediate finished motion pictures, so you just can’t go back and rescan the film element in 4k (or even 6k) then color-correct, etc. like you could with restoring an old movie like Lawrence of Arabia, The Godfather, for instance.

These recent, modern day movies were basically assembled digitally with a lot of post work done to the 2K digital scans, so essentially it would be cost prohibitive as well as difficult to redo the whole motion picture in 4K, even if you had the money, time and the original filmmakers to guide the process.

In short, all of the original camera elements (provided they still exist) would have to be completely re-scanned and then the entire visual side of the post-production process would have to be completed all over again.

Digitally color timing all the elements at a higher resolution would cost more money, as would repeating all the same edits precisely. Don't certain camera systems have the ability of writing unique time code onto negatives to help automation of the editing process? Worst of all, the CGI, effects compositing and finishing process has to be completely re-rendered at the higher resolution. That's going to cost even more time and money.

So, yeah, doing things at 4K or 6K from that start rather than the usual "good enough" 2K standard is really the way to go in attempting to future proof an expensive movie production so it can be marketable on store shelves for 20 years or more. I have a feeling a lot of the native 2K stuff is going to be seen as very primitive by the time we get into the year 2020 time frame.

[woodspoon]

Hi, Penton! I´ve been reading you here forever, but I never write anything (even though I´m Spanish I don´t like Jorge Lorenzo, so even in the bikes conversation I stay silent Anyway, I wanted to know if the Europe version of TERMINATOR SALVATION is going to be uncut. I ask you because it´s SONY doing the release over here...Thanks a lot!

[mark antony]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Well, that gives plenty of time for the condemnation speculation(s) by the invariably non-enthusiastic ‘Blu-ray enthusiasts’ to fester for several weeks with negative cross-posting all over the internet.

Mark, I’m out of the office so, you’ll just have to wait for me to get back and check on it when I've got the time.

Thanks for looking into it

M

[Penton-Man]

Heads-up for Angels & Demons Blu-ray fans –

This is worthwhile TV viewing to fully appreciate some of the historical background of the upcoming Blu-ray movie --since all feature films are obviously limited by time constraints in their story telling………
http://www.history.com/shows.do?epis...&action=detail

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Bobby Henderson

In short....

You got it Bobby, and like Rob said in the clip, 2k is HD resolution (considering 128 pixels difference being negligible).

I know of one feature film for which Vilmos Z. was the D.P., where he was presented with two choices (due to budgetary concerns) by the producers:
1. Shoot anamorphic and get a 2k D.I. post.
2. Shoot Super35 (3 perf) and get a 4k D.I. post.

Despite being a BIG fan of anamorphic, chose option # 2, like the wise old owl he is.
P.S.
Hey Bobby, we’ve got our own film grain lovers thread here now and it’s rolling.
https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...30#post2295130

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by woodspoon

Hi, Penton! I´ve been reading you here forever, but I never write anything (even though I´m Spanish I don´t like Jorge Lorenzo, so even in the bikes conversation I stay silent Anyway, I wanted to know if the Europe version of TERMINATOR SALVATION is going to be uncut. I ask you because it´s SONY doing the release over here...Thanks a lot!

Hi woodspoon.
I don’t know anything about that project and like with Léon I would have to check it out when I get back.
I’m currently involved with trying to get an acronym property released and until I see some definitive movement in this area, rather than just *****-footing around, I may be out of the office for quite awhile as this is important to me. I may even have to learn to speak Spanish fluently to get the message across.

[wallendo]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Hi woodspoon.
I don’t know anything about that project and like with Léon I would have to check it out when I get back.
I’m currently involved with trying to get an acronym property released and until I see some definitive movement in this area, rather than just *****-footing around, I may be out of the office for quite awhile as this is important to me. I may even have to learn to speak Spanish fluently to get the message across.

"Acronym property"? Is this a riddle?

Should we expect the great classic D.E.B.S. to be released.
E.T. would be better but I don't think you own that.

Of course, on this board, almost every movie is an acronym.

[Doctorossi]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Despite being a BIG fan of anamorphic, chose option # 2, like the wise old owl he is.

Smart man.





... but we knew that.

[PeterTHX]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

I know of one feature film for which Vilmos Z. was the D.P., where he was presented with two choices (due to budgetary concerns) by the producers:
1. Shoot anamorphic and get a 2k D.I. post.
2. Shoot Super35 (3 perf) and get a 4k D.I. post.

Despite being a BIG fan of anamorphic, chose option # 2, like the wise old owl he is.

Which seems odd since anamorphic would fully use the 4K resolution better than the S35 (which would be more like 3K, especially only 3-perf)

Budget shouldn't be an issue since plenty of low budget productions can use anamorphic, even Drew Barrymore's directorial debut about roller derby (Whip It) is.