"Club Penton" - Ask questions to Hollywood insider "Penton-Man"

[sharkshark]

Yeah, you're -still- not saying why that's a bad thing....

The point isn't that you disagree with those on the Screenshot forums, but that their dogmatism makes it impossible to have reasonable debate, and that their intractable beliefs cloud and and all discourse, making them little more than sheep-like zombies that repeat whatever talking points they've been conditioned to spout.

THAT is what's inexcuseable. Having an opinioin (during the heat of the so-called "war") that differed from your own, based on rational and well argued points, is to be celebrated, not denigrated. It doesn't make him a traitor, or an idiot, or even (shock!) necessarily wrong.

You must know that BD "won" for reasons that go well beyond any specific technical advantages (or downplaying of disadvantages), and much more to do with economic and political factors. In other words, Josh's reasons, whatever they are, may still be valid arguments, but moot given events that transpired. That does not warrant a personal attack on him.

Being disrespectful and antagonistic to the likes of Vincent? Give em hell. The key is to stop the anti-intellectual, anti-expert, name calling diatribes that ignore evidence in favour of groupthink (alas, this thread has in the past been victim of that very phenomina, but of late such sillyness has greatly abated).

Fight close mindedness in all its forms, rather than pissing on ideas that might not correspond with your own, but are communicated with respect and intelligence.

But, no, I don't really want to get into it, and I'm a bit surprised that a simple "oh, I went to far" wasn't forthcoming from the original poster.

[Vincent Pereira]

Dave Klein wrote me a detailed accounting of his involvment with the new CHASING AMY transfer, which I've posted (with his permission) in that thread at AVS:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...8&postcount=81

There's still a chance some tinkering was done after the fact as he hasn't seen the final Blu-ray itself, but the "master" certainly wasn't the issue, as he viewed it PROJECTED in a theater via the 2K DI (not via a "small monitor" as was suggested by a naysayer in that AVS thread) and as such would have been painfully aware of any processing issues with the 2K scan itself.

Incidentally, Dave has just been invited to join the ASC, a great honor! Congrats, Dave!

Vincent

[abintra]

Originally Posted by Vincent Pereira

There's still a chance some tinkering was done after the fact as he hasn't seen the final Blu-ray itself, but the "master" certainly wasn't the issue, as he viewed it PROJECTED in a theater via the 2K DI (not via a "small monitor" as was suggested by a naysayer in that AVS thread) and as such would have been painfully aware of any processing issues with the 2K scan itself.

It would be interesting if he can confirm the end result reflected the master if he does get a chance to view the BD.

[Jeff Kleist]

Given the facilities that Disney usually uses, I would assume that there wasn't any post-mastering manipulation until proven otherwise

[abintra]

Good thing it is nothing like baseball. The new Shea, not calling it Citi, is a great facility but the end result has a ways to go.

[sharkshark]

Vincent, something tells me that when you guys were on the rooftop of the Quickstop, setting up shots of a hockey game, that the idea that one day the DOP would be a member of the ASC was pretty far from your minds...

Well, there's also reflected glory, I guess... After all, you were one of his ACs, no?

Wish him Mazel Tov from all of us forum nerds...

[Robert Harris]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Heads-Up RAH,
Tonight, Gordon Willis (Lenser Extraordinaire ) as well as producer-executive John Calley, actress Lauren Bacall, producer-director Roger Corman will be honored at the Academy’s inaugural Governors Awards event.

If by chance you didn’t know, then might I suggest sending Gordon a Congratulatory e-mail.

My team has been very much in the loop. Gordon is an incredibly deserving recipient. While his darker work may be difficult to bring to data, he's an extraordinary gentleman, and dream to work with. We could not have brought The Godfather(s) back without him, nor would we have wished to.

RAH

[Cliff]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

For me, this one paragraph in that deleted post by Cliff sums it all up in a nutshell over there, as I couldn’t have said it better myself……..

Wow, I had no idea that all of this was going on over here. As the original author of the stuff over at AVS, I have to say that I have been simultaneously not surprised/completely floored by the ever-increasing resistance to learning anything over at AVS. As a forum, they used to house a lot of great insiders and first-hand knowledge, but somewhere along the way, they allowed their arrogance to just completely sully that benefit. Pretty much anyone with a modicum of actual experience has long since been run off by the villagers with their digital torches.

What they don’t seem to get (and I’ve tried to warn them over and over again- including the mods –AND THE OWNER, David Bott-) is that AVS’s credibility within the industry now stands at pretty much zero. They went from being a wonderful site that studios read, reacted, and occasionally even responded to, to garnering nothing more than an eyeroll and a groan at the mere mention of ‘AVS’ from pretty much every studio person I know.

I’ve said it before, but AVS’s problem was that they bred and encouraged (through silence and lack of action) a community where it was more important to be ‘right’ than to be ‘correct.’ I’ve had people tell me I was absolutely incorrect about things I was in the room for (despite me stating that I was ‘in the room’ when said decision was made). I know a few of those people have made their way to Blu-ray.com, but hopefully the death of the format war has mellowed them out a bit.

I’ll continue to post here and leave AVS behind if you guys want me to. I feel like, given their arrogance and genuine lack of interest in learning anything beyond the limit of their own opinions, they don’t really deserve the participation of guys like Penton Man, Vincent, or myself. Some of the guys over there (including what I consider the Illuminati behind AVS’s slow suicide… AlexBC, eric.exe, Kram Sacul, Xylon, and a couple others I won’t mention by name because I think they’re members over here) don’t seem to be able to better themselves through an increase of knowledge and respectability, so they accomplish it via bringing other people down. They’re just too busy trying to play ‘gotcha’ and prove good and knowledgeable people wrong and I have neither the time nor the temperament to engage in that.

And for those who wonder, I’m a Blu-ray special features producer.

[pro-bassoonist]

Good evening, Cliff.

And welcome to the forum. Yes, your knowledge would be greatly appreciated here.

Again, welcome to the community.

Pro-B

p.s.
Please check your PMs.

[Icemage]

Welcome to the forums, Cliff!

(WARNING: Long winded history lesson commences regarding AVS forum - my apologies for using your thread as a temporary soapbox Penton-Man!)

It's a sad fact that the AVS movie forums suffered a marked decline in forum quality right around when the Blu-ray / HD DVD format war started brewing. In fact, it's my personal opinion that the forums themselves there are a direct casualty of the format war. In hindsight, I think it was Blu-ray.com which sort of set off some of the changes - that sounds like I'm placing blame, but I'm not. I should expand.

Back when both formats first launched, the various denizens of AVS drew battle lines and basically went after each other tooth and nail in a sort of protracted holy war over which format should succeed DVD. HD DVD launched first and with noticeably better practical image quality (at the time), and so it drew a disproportionate amount of early support despite being a more recently developed technology.

At some point the viral marketing took over the forums, deliberately stoking the fires, and the moderators there "sort of" clamped down on the forum warring, but both factions remained about equal in size at that point (Blu-ray's contingent being bolstered in number by the release of the PlayStation 3).

And then this site appeared, and many of the AVS movie forum members departed to spend more time here - this left an imbalance on the AVS forum, and that lean slowly drove the rest of the more vocal Blu-ray supporters over here, and seriously turned off many of the more sane members who were committed to neither side.

All but one of the Blu-ray insiders (Penton-Man being the most visible, but also paidgeek) and Bill Hunt of The Digital Bits showed up on this forum. Bill in particular stayed pretty steadfastly neutral throughout the process but got a very bad reaction from an increasingly pro-HD DVD membership, which I'm guessing is what prompted him to seek a less hostile platform.

The only pro-Blu insider I can remember who stayed on AVS at that point was Talkstr8t (did this guy get his war medal for doing so, Penton? ), and that state of affairs would remain in effect until shortly before the end of the format war in early 2008. It being AVS Forum, with its set traditions, people were of course scrutinizing individual frames of captured video stills and doing "A/B" comparisons.

After Toshiba threw in the towel, that precedent of using still images to "prove" points continued. The forum at that point was a ghost of its former self. The HD DVD die-hards took the end very badly - some stuck around for a while (and there's still some bitter people over there even today), but the real tragedy of the entire situation is that the forum membership over there, which had previously included quite a lot of VERY well-educated and nice posters, had vanished.

Quite a lot of the members had simply left for good during the format war, and never returned. Some came here. Others were simply disgusted by the day-in-day-out bickering - and well they should have been.

The insiders, who were the lifeblood of what had kept the BEST readership there on the forum, had all been driven off or left of their own accord (forum members from that time may remember cjplay, who was a Warner insider). The only insiders really left on the forum at that point were Microsoft plants - amirm, sspears, etc. and they all left swiftly after the end of the format war, leaving nothing in place to bring back the old, knowledgeable membership.

Now when I visit AVS (almost never nowadays) it's just full of mean spirited sniping without much actual insight. I had hoped that things might at least get back to something resembling "normal" over time, but that sadly has not happened.

[Cliff]

Originally Posted by Icemage

it's just full of mean spirited sniping without much actual insight.

Thanks for the welcome and...
Bingo!

[hanser]

While I agree absolutely with Icemages description, it largely pertains to the HD software forums. AVS is still a good place to get information if you e.g. look for a new receiver or projector, IMO.

But I disgress: Welcome, Cliff! I read your comments re Gremlins on AVS with great interest. Perhaps you could be interested in being one of the residient insiders here??

[PeterTHX]

Welcome Cliff.

Look foward to your insight here.

[Wendell R. Breland]

Originally Posted by Icemage

The only insiders really left on the forum at that point were Microsoft plants - amirm, sspears, etc. and they all left swiftly after the end of the format war, leaving nothing in place to bring back the old, knowledgeable membership.

Amir is now (has been) trumpeting streaming/downloading as the future to home video. What is funny is to watch some of the same HD DVD supporters fall in behind him in supporting streaming/downloading. What is disgusting is the protection AVS provides Amir. I know, I just had post deleted and received a warning.

sspears, a.k.a. Stacey Spears with Don Munsil has produced a nice Blu-ray test disc.

[Wendell R. Breland]

Originally Posted by Cliff

And for those who wonder, I’m a Blu-ray special features producer.

Welcome Cliff, good to see you here!

[Icemage]

Originally Posted by hanser

While I agree absolutely with Icemages description, it largely pertains to the HD software forums.

Yes, I took great pains to refer explicitly to the movie forums.

AVS is still a good place to get information if you e.g. look for a new receiver or projector, IMO.

True. The audio forums there are still usable as well.

[sharkshark]

Ice, great summary, Cliff, welcome to this thread... Humbly, it's a little branch of THIS forum where most of the partisan foolishness is abandoned.

In other words, Penton keeps a tidy sandbox...

And Amir bashing? Really? Two posts after somebody decried the trashing of indiders even if you disagree with them?

(and please don't get into a "his not at M$" anymore bullshite... go debate the arguments, rather than piss on the messenger, insider or no)

[Eternal_Sunshine]

Originally Posted by sharkshark

And Amir bashing? Really? Two posts after somebody decried the trashing of indiders even if you disagree with them?

Yeah, Amir bashing. What you still don't want to acknowledge is that there was a very substantial difference between BD insiders like Penton and Paidgeek and main HD-DVD insider Amir: they told the truth and he lied, repeatedly, on purpose, spreading FUD left, right and centre.

Recently, as Wendell R. Breland noted, he's showing his true colours on AVS by claiming that "the general consumer" doesn't really want HD at all, they just want their movies served as conveniantly as possible (i.e. digitally streamed/downloaded). You may remember that many people suspected that Microsoft's support for HD-DVD during the so called "format war" was just a thinly-veiled attempt to stall Blu-ray until digital distribution was ready for prime time...

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1195659

[blindcat87]

Yes, welcome Cliff. Would love to have another industry insider posting here.

And hi Penton, haven't had anything relevant to post, but I'm always reading and keeping up with your latest great info, commentary and of course mad youtube skills.

Chris

[DenonCI]

Welcome Cliff. Check your inbox.