"Club Penton" - Ask questions to Hollywood insider "Penton-Man"

[DaViD Boulet]

You see, during the production of the 2K digital intermediate (hell, this even applies also to telecine output [i.e. the Spirit Datacine], sharpening is not uncommonly applied at the bequest of the filmmaker – because of focusing/lens deficiencies during the primary photography. You often have some shots with focus problems that undergo subsequent D.I. sharpening……. and at the other end of the scale you may have a whole film that the Director feels needs some grain reduction during the D.I. process. This *de-graining* often necessitates some compensatory sharpening. I guess like most all things in life, moderation is the key here.

then that's all that needs to be said in cases where the "ringing" is inherent to the original source master and not introduced via the process specifically utilized to create the for-home-video Blu-ray Disc master.

The potentially worst case scenario is with a film that a Director/D.P. has intentionally utilized optical diffusion for creative intent (such as Munich or more recently, Atonement [black stocking used])
and the person in charge of the of HD digital master production or Blu-ray encoding is clueless to that fact, so intercedes by boosting the sharpening thinking that he is increasing the PQ for the home enthusiast – i.e. a “better” product.

Even if this behavior doesn’t translate into visible annoying artifacts, it has broken the creative intent of the Director if prior approval was not obtained.

which is exactly what folks who are bothered by EE want to determine... to distinguish between EE that falls into this later category versus that which falls into the former that you mention.

Individuals who care about these details are no less film enthusiasts than anyone else. At HTF those of use who care about 1080p media are derided as "technophiles who love technology instead of movies" with the same attitude you express in your opening tirade against those who are finding instances of ringing in otherwise laudable presentations. The fact is that many of us who are concerned with details are concerned about them because we seek to preserve the integrity of the visual art of film... because we love movies. I'm not excusing the odd character who merely wants to incent fellow enthusiasts to complain. However, the majority of enthusiasts are balanced evaluators who's passion for high-fidelity video imagery is a good thing.

Everyone has a different threshold for various artifacts and when they become a distraction. It's a good thing for the videophile community that there *are* folks who take the time to do careful evaluation, as it helps keep the bar of quality high for the rest of us who "sit back and enjoy" what the studios give us without taking the time to exercise a more critical eye.

[CptGreedle]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

I’ve received some PM’s over the past couple weeks from people that watch Blu-ray movies on large screens (greater than 100”) and occasionally, but rarely see annoying edge enhancement with some titles, no matter what the studio. This term appears to be a buzzword on some internet forums now that the format war is over.

First, I’ll ask the inquiring minds to answer a question for me in order to gauge their perspective. Be honest.

Have you seen the Blu-ray…….Michael Clayton ?
At the very end of the movie, when George gets into the taxi cab, did you notice that he gives a hint of a wry smile?

Or, did you completely miss that part of the ending because you were too absorbed in looking at the rolling credits on the right side of the screen projected over the backseat of the taxi cab in order to examine the letters of the credits for their resolution and/or any possible artifacts ?

Well, if you’re a member of the later camp (rolling credit examiner), then as far as I’m concerned you are not a film aficionado whatsoever, and would also enjoy making a game out of looking for blemishes or wrinkles on the face of God. So, instead of playing a quality control specialist online, you might as well man up and apply for a real job in the industry and do it for money. Or, perhaps pursue a career in looking for dull spots on polished ball bearings all day long.

If you’re a member of the former camp (i.e. you indeed noticed the hint of a smile from George Clooney at the very end), then I’ll let you in on a little production pipeline secret and my next post is provided for your sharpened enlightenment.

P.S.
If you haven’t seen Michael Clayton at all, and despite reading what I’ve stated above, you just can’t control yourself and are compelled to still examine the credits on the right side of the screen at the end, then I say, you have real problems……unless, of course you’re checking to see that they spelled your name correctly in one of those credits if you were involved in the theatrical production in some way.

Just so you know Penton, some people.. like me.. DO have that job. I am not kidding.
Everyday I have to examine in extreme resolutions ULTRA HIGH quality images (100MB+) from some of the best photographers in the world. It is a very demanding job and yes, something like a spec of dirt, an edge enhancement, a chromatic aberration, etc. are things I am trained to look at.
I am not, however, one of those guys that will study a movie for the defects. I do that so much at work I just want to enjoy the best movie I can in the best quality without any problems. Alas, sometimes my training gets the best of me and I end up not only seeing the problem, but getting distracted and annoyed by it. Things like Moire pattern, EE, artifacting, banding, etc.etc.etc... just start to pop out at me.

Now I try to ignore them, and usually I succeed, but if it can be avoided in the first place I would be much happier.
Not to rain on your parade Penton, but I really really do have the job of finding and looking at dirt and defects, and fixing them.

[DaViD Boulet]

Just so you know Penton, some people.. like me.. DO have that job. I am not kidding.
Everyday I have to examine in extreme resolutions ULTRA HIGH quality images (100MB+) from some of the best photographers in the world. It is a very demanding job and yes, something like a spec of dirt, an edge enhancement, a chromatic aberration, etc. are things I am trained to look at.
I am not, however, one of those guys that will study a movie for the defects. I do that so much at work I just want to enjoy the best movie I can in the best quality without any problems. Alas, sometimes my training gets the best of me and I end up not only seeing the problem, but getting distracted and annoyed by it. Things like Moire pattern, EE, artifacting, banding, etc.etc.etc... just start to pop out at me.

Now I try to ignore them, and usually I succeed, but if it can be avoided in the first place I would be much happier.
Not to rain on your parade Penton, but I really really do have the job of finding and looking at dirt and defects, and fixing them.

You shouldn't be told to ignore them or be made to feel like your raining on anyone's parade for bringing them to the attention of those who can make a difference. There should be a process by which those who see problems can communicate them to those handling the process so things can improve. Ideally those problems that you identify would be recitfied on future releases if they are not an inherent part of the source image (ie, resulting from mastering/authoring-related process issues).

DVD's potenial was far from realized when it entered the scene in the late 1990's. It's improved dramatically since then. There's no reason why we should expect HD media to be any different.

[CptGreedle]

Well I have been pleased with Blu-ray very much. It is hard to watch a DVD sometimes now. If the quality of the DVD is very good I don't have a problem, but there are some I have seen (especially older releases) that have horrendous quality. Luckily most Blu-rays I have seen do not suffer from many problems.
If there was a way to relay the problems I see to the people making them I would, I could make a killing as a quality control official.
I fully expect Blu-ray releases to get even better with time like DVD did.

[PaulGo]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

In regards to sharpening and the potential for possible resultant “annoying” edge enhancement visualized on larger consumer screens in the home theater environment….
Well, the problem is that it is sometimes a cumulative effect of more than one step in the process.

You see, during the production of the 2K digital intermediate (hell, this even applies also to telecine output [i.e. the Spirit Datacine], sharpening is not uncommonly applied at the bequest of the filmmaker – because of focusing/lens deficiencies during the primary photography. You often have some shots with focus problems that undergo subsequent D.I. sharpening……. and at the other end of the scale you may have a whole film that the Director feels needs some grain reduction during the D.I. process. This *de-graining* often necessitates some compensatory sharpening. I guess like most all things in life, moderation is the key here.

One nice thing about good 4K capture* or 35mm capture with subsequent 4K DI work (which is few and far between) is that you’ve got so much production headroom (i.e. so much resolution) that you don’t have to edge sharpen….at least, except infrequently for some problem shots regarding focusing.

Anyway.......further on down the chain, sharpening can also potentially be added during HD digital master production and even the subsequent Blu-ray encoding process…… and some displays even have it built-in as a default mechanism. So,
you should now understand how the cumulative process can potentially yield a suboptimal end product by the addition of sharpening at more than one step along the production chain.

The good thing is, paidgeek is particularly cognizant of this fact and the potential for a suboptimal outcome due to the later steps in the process, of which he has some control over.

* b.t.w. not all 4K camera systems (camera/lens) are created equal and I think it is naive thinking to solely define cameras in terms of megapixels. There is a much better metric that manufacturers could use to help out cinematographers.

When movies such as the Star Wars III was shot they used video camera and kept the film all digital. What as the resolution of these cameras. If they were standard 1080p resolution cameras did they do an enhancements for use on large movie screens?

[patrick99]

Originally Posted by DaViD Boulet

You shouldn't be told to ignore them or be made to feel like your raining on anyone's parade for bringing them to the attention of those who can make a difference. There should be a process by which those who see problems can communicate them to those handling the process so things can improve. Ideally those problems that you identify would be recitfied on future releases if they are not an inherent part of the source image (ie, resulting from mastering/authoring-related process issues).

DVD's potenial was far from realized when it entered the scene in the late 1990's. It's improved dramatically since then. There's no reason why we should expect HD media to be any different.

I have attempted to do that (not regarding EE) on one of the other insider threads here, but the responses that I have received have not been very. . . responsive.

[CptGreedle]

Originally Posted by PaulGo

When movies such as the Star Wars III was shot they used video camera and kept the film all digital. What as the resolution of these cameras. If they were standard 1080p resolution cameras did they do an enhancements for use on large movie screens?

Usually a camera like that shoots a digital image at either 2k or 4k. Both are bigger than 1080 (which is technically around 1.9k but really very very close to 2k). So what you get is an image that is almost equal to or half that of the original film when it is on Blu-ray.

[bassbone57]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

I’ve received some PM’s over the past couple weeks from people that watch Blu-ray movies on large screens (greater than 100”) and occasionally, but rarely see annoying edge enhancement with some titles, no matter what the studio...

Well, if you’re a member of the later camp (rolling credit examiner), then as far as I’m concerned you are not a film aficionado whatsoever, and would also enjoy making a game out of looking for blemishes or wrinkles on the face of God. So, instead of playing a quality control specialist online, you might as well man up and apply for a real job in the industry and do it for money. Or, perhaps pursue a career in looking for dull spots on polished ball bearings all day long.

Or, maybe ISF calibration would be a good $350 investment for these people also. I think they might find their display is the biggest culprit of the edge enhancement.

-K

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by patrick99

I have attempted to do that (not regarding EE) on one of the other insider threads here, but the responses that I have received have not been very. . . responsive.

Patrick, I don’t know what thread or which circumstance you are specifically alluding to but, I think that “unresponsiveness” by insiders here is probably perceived by you as being synonymous with being *ignored*…..which is not the case.

All requests/observations that are respectfully submitted here are considered as to their validity first and then their possible implementation. It’s just that we don’t have the time to correct or elaborate on every misconception or fallacy posted by hobbyists or else we would never get any real work done the course of our day. And we sure as hell don’t have time to read other forums, except in passing, so don’t waste your time/energy posting anywhere else if you choose to make a real difference in something.

What the hell, paidgeek took time out of his family life to make continual posts regarding Dolby THD and the Sony S300 player because of people’s reluctance to believe him.

I’ve made repeated posts regarding the true value of 4K scanning per se in regards to its misperceived benefit for home theater enthusiasts some of whom still believe what they chose to believe. And if I get the chance to scan a scientific paper, I’ll submit that as a piece of evidence against michel’s notion that a 1080p source which is displayed at 1080p where no filter is present in the signal processing chain will produce a poorer result than utilizing a 4K source to begin with.

I took the time to confirm with the SCE insider that the PS3 will definitely get DTS-MA because to the best of my knowledge there has been no credible source that has confirmed this and everything that you’ve read on the internet concerning this issue has been either wishful thinking or supposition. Paidgeek never confirmed this, because he would be overstepping his bounds(Sony Pictures) to post such.

We really do as much as we can here.

[JasonR]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Patrick, I don’t know what thread or which circumstance you are specifically alluding to but, I think that “unresponsiveness” by insiders here is probably perceived by you as being synonymous with being *ignored*…..which is not the case.

All requests/observations that are respectfully submitted here are considered as to their validity first and then their possible implementation. It’s just that we don’t have the time to correct or elaborate on every misconception or fallacy posted by hobbyists or else we would never get any real work done the course of our day. And we sure as hell don’t have time to read other forums, except in passing, so don’t waste your time/energy posting anywhere else if you choose to make a real difference in something.

What the hell, paidgeek took time out of his family life to make continual posts regarding Dolby THD and the Sony S300 player because of people’s reluctance to believe him.

I’ve made repeated posts regarding the true value of 4K scanning per se in regards to its misperceived benefit for home theater enthusiasts some of whom still believe what they chose to believe. And if I get the chance to scan a scientific paper, I’ll submit that as a piece of evidence against michel’s notion that a 1080p source which is displayed at 1080p where no filter is present in the signal processing chain will produce a poorer result than utilizing a 4K source to begin with.

I took the time to confirm with the SCE insider that the PS3 will definitely get DTS-MA because to the best of my knowledge there has been no credible source that has confirmed this and everything that you’ve read on the internet concerning this issue has been either wishful thinking or supposition. Paidgeek never confirmed this, because he would be overstepping his bounds(Sony Pictures) to post such.

We really do as much as we can here.

It wasn't a matter of not believing him, most of us just didn't know how to get it going.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by CptGreedle

Just so you know Penton, some people.. like me.. DO have that job. I am not kidding.

Lol, well you my friend are not one of the internet culprits that abuse the privilege.
Believe me, I know that there are Quality Control guys at every hub in the process.......which is good.

On a side note, I’m fully aware of how many times a QC guy has reported a colorist for crushing blacks in a scene because he (the QC guy) didn’t see enough shadow detail and there wasn’t a final resolution to the matter until we actually got the Director or DP on the phone to confirm that the colorist was directed to do this by the filmmaker rather than it being some rogue act or screw-up.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by DaViD Boulet

At HTF those of use who care about 1080p media are derided as "technophiles who love technology instead of movies" with the same attitude you express in your opening tirade against those who are finding instances of ringing in otherwise laudable presentations....

Well I never said that, i.e. what you quoted above.
I for one, think that HTF is one of the better consumer forums out there on the net.
I just don’t have any time to read them.

And I do think that there are some excellent reviewers/home theater enthusiasts out there who have no personal agenda. For instance, Dan Ramer seems to be one of the more knowledgeable out there (who I think you may know) and certainly had one of the most intelligent conversations with a professional compressionist that I’ve been privy to while passing by.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by JasonR

It wasn't a matter of not believing him, most of us just didn't know how to get it going.

Well, then he as well as I, both got the wrong impression, if what you state is the case.

[JasonR]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Well, then he as well as I, both got the wrong impression, if what you state is the case.

We were all trying to figure it out and just didn't know how. His help was greatly appreciated.

[DaViD Boulet]

Well I never said that, i.e. what you quoted above.
I for one, think that HTF is one of the better consumer forums out there on the net.
I just don’t have any time to read them.

And I do think that there are some excellent reviewers/home theater enthusiasts out there who have no personal agenda. For instance, Dan Ramer seems to be one of the more knowledgeable out there (who I think you may know) and certainly had one of the most intelligent conversations with a professional compressionist that I’ve been privy to while passing by.

Sorry if my comments sounded reactionary. I just wanted to make sure we weren't slipping down the path of "if you pay too much attention to notice problems you don't love movies" (my paraphrase, not your words).

BTW, I'm a fellow reviewer at dvdfile.com where Dan reviews/is Editor. He has my utmost respect, and is the key reason I migrated to that site to review there.

[dialog_gvf]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

You see, during the production of the 2K digital intermediate (hell, this even applies also to telecine output [i.e. the Spirit Datacine], sharpening is not uncommonly applied at the bequest of the filmmaker – because of focusing/lens deficiencies during the primary photography. You often have some shots with focus problems that undergo subsequent D.I. sharpening……. and at the other end of the scale you may have a whole film that the Director feels needs some grain reduction during the D.I. process. This *de-graining* often necessitates some compensatory sharpening. I guess like most all things in life, moderation is the key here.

What is needed is a logo that can be approved for use by the DP/Director that would appear on the disc + case to indicate the transfer had been approved.

When one knows the DP/director have seen the result, then it becomes "intent" and people can shut the hell up about it.

The end-credits are filled with union/guild symbols. Why not one for the disc, which arguably is far more important nowdays than the theatrical release.

Gary

[WickyWoo]

What is needed is a logo that can be approved for use by the DP/Director that would appear on the disc + case to indicate the transfer had been approved.

Like how Criterion has the signatures

[Grubert]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

You see, during the production of the 2K digital intermediate (hell, this even applies also to telecine output [i.e. the Spirit Datacine], sharpening is not uncommonly applied at the bequest of the filmmaker – because of focusing/lens deficiencies during the primary photography. You often have some shots with focus problems that undergo subsequent D.I. sharpening……. and at the other end of the scale you may have a whole film that the Director feels needs some grain reduction during the D.I. process. This *de-graining* often necessitates some compensatory sharpening. I guess like most all things in life, moderation is the key here.

You're describing my experience when watching JP Jeunet's film A Very Long Engagement. Possibly the first time I've seen edge enhancement theatrically.

[spicynacho]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

We really do as much as we can here.

And we truly appreciate the sacrifices and effort you and all the insiders have put into your contributions here. It is just the nature of some to be the squeaky wheel, and while I am sure there is a small percentage that are truly trollish, I believe most of the posters around here are probably just expressing angst with some of the quirks that are bound to spring up when any technology product.

Basically, don’t let them get you down. I would suggest an insider’s section FAQ sticky that you post the common questions and the latest news on them if you wanted to really put your foot down. Then it would just be a mod function to nudge repeat offenders to the answer with an infraction.

FAQ:

When is my favorite movie coming out?
I am watching it right now but b/c you asked, I am just going to put it on the shelf for another 6 months.
When is PS3 getting DTS-MA?
Whenever the dudes at SCE get to it, stop asking.
When is PS3 getting bit stream of DTS-MA/TrueHD?
See above.
Edge enhancement kicked my dog?
Tough, deal with it.

[frank_t]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

We really do as much as we can here.

much appreciated too!!!