8K discussion thread

[Geoff D]

What's even more amusing is that we now have 'Filmmaker Mode™' as a thing on upcoming TVs that will turn off all extraneous processing and provide as close an approximation of the creative intent as the respective TV can muster. I've already got a 'filmmaker mode' on my TV though, it's called "proper calibration"

Though I do find it incomprehensible - in that I cannot comprehend this - that someone who's such a slavish fanboy of Dobly for its adherence to creative intent is so quick to throw other aspects of creative intent out of the window.

[jibucha]

of course (i agree) - that's 'art' after all (entirely different - in many regards)

Originally Posted by Geoff D

than I would have Van Gogh's Sunflowers be replaced with a photo of some sunflowers. After all, Van Gogh was looking at real sunflowers right???
.

[jibucha]

of course (we dis-agree) - quite a bit actually

Originally Posted by Geoff D

What people like you simply don't understand, and never will, is that the medium ends up informing the art. I'm a firm believer in technical limitations being a creative asset and not a hindrance, and while there are some people who always hated working with film they were more on the VFX side of things rather than filmmakers on the ground who got on with what they were given.

[MechaGodzilla]

Originally Posted by Scottishguy

That or 20 year's of selling TVs has made him go full blown Colonel Kurtz.

Who's the Martin Sheen they send to kill him?

Originally Posted by Geoff D

What's even more amusing is that we now have 'Filmmaker Mode™' as a thing on upcoming TVs that will turn off all extraneous processing and provide as close an approximation of the creative intent as the respective TV can muster. I've already got a 'filmmaker mode' on my TV though, it's called "proper calibration"

Though I do find it incomprehensible - in that I cannot comprehend this - that someone who's such a slavish fanboy of Dobly for its adherence to creative intent is so quick to throw other aspects of creative intent out of the window.

What's up with "Dobly"? At first I assumed it was a typo, but you keep spelling it that way so I'm guessing it's intentional. I don't get it, though.

[jibucha]

shooting on film - definitely a confusing topic (inclusive of many factors)

film grain (artificially added to digital photography) - while difficult to address in 'generalizations' - i stand 'against' film grain (of course if removed improperly - will adversely affect picture quality - no disagreement in this regard)

back to display issues - personally, i think that whatever features are available on 'any' display (past/future) appropriate user controls should be available to conveniently control/disable any such feature that individual customer satisfaction is achieved (then, none of us should be dissatisfied with our personal viewing preferences - right?)

Originally Posted by Geoff D

As for finding it "incomprehensible" that people would desire the limitations of film there are several filmmakers who still insist upon shooting on film. And more than that, I find it rather amusing that so many digitally shot movies these days are having film emulation LUTs applied in order to put IN some of that dreaded graininess and texture that some see as an anathema. Why? Because several filmmakers actually WANT that look and I'll be goddamned if I ever have to put up with a TV that blitzes it all away in the name of making it 'pop'. **** that shit.

[Lee A Stewart]

Originally Posted by PaulGo

I believe manufactures could put the same advanced chips in 4K sets to improve picture quality. The reason they won't I it is not profitable since 4K has become a commodity item. One other thing I remember about 4K TVs when they first came out manufactures talked about the increased picture quality (which as true). But several years later as the 4K technology improved along came HDR which greatly increased the performance of 4K TVs. I would expect something similar with 8K TVs as the technology matures.

#1. The introduction of UHD TVs was a knee-jerk reaction by the TV OEMS to the failure of 3DTV to take hold. That's why all they offered was a resolution step-up. If you remember, it wasn't easy to get UHD content to them at the time. Most were 8 bit panels.

#2. When over 50% of the comments by reviewers stated that they couldn't see any difference between HD and UHD, this prompted the addition of HDR and WCG using 10 bit panels. Though BT.2020 was introduced as a standard, Hollywood's lower P3 was the benchmark. These improvements were easily seen from any viewing distance. HDR/WCG took off and has since been a large part of the success of UHD.

#3. Going from Rec.709/HD to P3/UHD was not that big of a step. Sort of like going from NTSC to HDTV. Doable within an acceptable cost factor.

And now we are at the dawn of UHD 2 (8K) which for the most part has only been "pushed" by a single country and a single company (Japan/NHK).

Going from UHD1 to UHD 2 is a HUGE leap forward. The infrastructure doesn't exist outside of Japan. Think about the changes: HD to UHD 1 (2MB/frame to 8+MB/frame with the + being HDR/WCG). UHD1 to UHD 2 (8+MB frame to 32+/MB per frame). THAT'S A TON OF DATA per second.

I see two improvements to UHD 2: 12 bit panels so BT.2020 can be reached and HFR which has already been proven successful in trial live broadcasts of sports. Because resolution drops off so much when objects are in motion, it is a prerequisite. The difference between UHD 2 HFR and UHD 2 is like night and day.

IMO - you aren't going to see the transition from UHD 1 to UHD 2 as we have seen in the past: SD to HD to UHD. There is no need to shoot and show movies or TV shows in UHD 2. UHD 1 will work just fine. Sports on the other hand is, if you will excuse the pun; "a whole new ball game."

[jibucha]

clarification? - is it fair to characterize the work of Japan/NHK as "pushed"?

clearly (to me) - Japan/NHK simply designed their system for the future (at great cost & a great contribution - in reality, a remarkable achievement) - when the rest of the industry/world, continued along a path that could fairly be represented as 'decades in the making' - if ever?

Japan/NHK - makes me wish that i was resident there

and - that they paid studios to produce content (70mm) in 8K - that's quite and accomplishment (2001 & My Fair Lady)

and - it 'might be interesting' reading of the quality of the Olympics (as seen in 8K in Japan) - later this year

and - that their system is designed to the highest standards (8K), they have full capability to broadcast (support) all formats & all features, without having to 'work them in' incrementally as the rest of the world

Originally Posted by Lee A Stewart

And now we are at the dawn of UHD 2 (8K) which for the most part has only been "pushed" by a single country and a single company (Japan/NHK).

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Waboman

7 chipmunks twirlin'....

Hangover - Alvin and the Chipmunks: The Road Chip - YouTube

Anyway, I thought I’d exhaust my fine arts (poetry), for I’m intimated by all the technical acumen shown here. The point I was trying to convey was -
https://www.quora.com/What-does-litt...ous-thing-mean

However, on a less philosopical level, if need be, I do know some There once was a man from Nantucket limericks too.

[Lee A Stewart]

Originally Posted by jibucha

clarification? - is it fair to characterize the work of Japan/NHK as "pushed"?

OK - poor choice of words. Instead insert "adopted."

clearly (to me) - Japan/NHK simply designed their system for the future (at great cost & a great contribution - in reality, a remarkable achievement) - when the rest of the industry/world, continued along a path that could fairly be represented as 'decades in the making' - if ever?

Japan/NHK which was the inventor of High Definition (called Hi-Vision) made a choice that was different than the rest of the world. They chose to skip over UHD 1 when designing their replacement for HD. Instead they pursued UHD 2, their Super Hi-Vision format (8K). The rest of us like the USA, France, England, etc. felt that UHD 2 was too big of a change (read costly) and instead took a more moderate (read cheaper) plan: go to UHD 1.

Japan/NHK - makes me wish that i was resident there

and - that they paid studios to produce content (70mm) in 8K - that's quite and accomplishment (2001 & My Fair Lady)

Not as big as you think. The studios in question were already working on scanning these two films in 8K so they made them available on a licensed deal to NHK which desperately needed some kind of compelling native 8K content to show brand new owners of 8K TVs.

Keep in mind that the delivery of NHK's Super Hi-Vision is done by SAT while UHD 1 countries are pursuing OTA and IP as their delivery systems.

and - it 'might be interesting' reading of the quality of the Olympics (as seen in 8K in Japan) - later this year

Yes - should be spectacular - especially in the common areas NHK will be setting up with giant 200+" screens and 22 channel stereo.

and - that their system is designed to the highest standards (8K), they have full capability to broadcast (support) all formats & all features, without having to 'work them in' incrementally as the rest of the world

They have had quite a bit of time to perfect Super Hi-Vision with initial trials beginning in 2003. But it wasn't until 2017 that they realized that 120 FPS HFR needed to be a core feature.

[Archivy]

Originally Posted by Lee A Stewart

I see two improvements to UHD 2: 12 bit panels so BT.2020 can be reached and HFR which has already been proven successful in trial live broadcasts of sports. Because resolution drops off so much when objects are in motion, it is a prerequisite. The difference between UHD 2 HFR and UHD 2 is like night and day.

IMO - you aren't going to see the transition from UHD 1 to UHD 2 as we have seen in the past: SD to HD to UHD. There is no need to shoot and show movies or TV shows in UHD 2. UHD 1 will work just fine. Sports on the other hand is, if you will excuse the pun; "a whole new ball game."

I think you make good points, and it adds meat to the bone of my post from yesterday. The next wave of TVs could be sold on the basis of:

1) being 12-bit to achieve fuller color volume via BT.2020
2) being able to achieve higher frame rates

This is because consumers can immediately see those benefits. Why they are moving ahead thinking 8K is an effective selling point is beyond me.

[Funcha]

Just thinking aloud here. As much as I always want the latest and greatest in home video reproduction of our beloved film libraries, I won't be too disappointed if an 8K UHD format doesn't become reality. From what I've read, at its best 4K resolution is about the equivalent of 35 millimeter film resolution (and debatable if the human eye can even take in all that visual input from what I've read). Take, for example, the UHD of 2001. Breathtaking in 4K. Would 8K truly make much of a difference? Maybe. Maybe not. To me the biggest advancement we could ask for technologically is more physical disk bandwidth (holographic disks perhaps?). Just imagine lossless video and audio. The wet dream of videophiles in the digital age!

[JohnAV]

Originally Posted by Funcha

Just thinking aloud here. As much as I always want the latest and greatest in home video reproduction of our beloved film libraries, I won't be too disappointed if an 8K UHD format doesn't become reality. From what I've read, at its best 4K resolution is about the equivalent of 35 millimeter film resolution (and debatable if the human eye can even take in all that visual input from what I've read). Take, for example, the UHD of 2001. Breathtaking in 4K. Would 8K truly make much of a difference? Maybe. Maybe not. To me the biggest advancement we could ask for technologically is more physical disk bandwidth (holographic disks perhaps?). Just imagine lossless video and audio. The wet dream of videophiles in the digital age!

IMHO just getting certain legacy film classics to 4K DI on media is more than any classic film buff could dream about. However 8k would be desirable only against reality based content, where the viewer could marvel on the realism of the presentation compared to actually being there.

The recent Wizard of Oz 4K uses a 4K DI where some details such as the freckles on Dorothy face are quite visible, but aside from seeing the actors in great detail what is more to gain going to the 8K master except in a digital cinema environment on a huge screen?

I consider sports or any live event to be reality based content btw.

[Lee A Stewart]

Everyone knows that if you want to be on the "bleeding edge" of TV technology, you are going to pay through the nose for what at the time looks like cutting edge, but quickly falls behind in a matter of a year or two. This happened with HD when the very first large sized flat screens appeared (1280x720P PDPs). And again with UHD with 8 bit panel 2160P LCDs.

Now we see UHD 2 in it's infancy. 10 bit panels with some models not even displaying full UHD 2 resolution. Not all have the latest HDMI version 2.1. Their big selling point is the AI upscaling chips/processors used to "make" UHD 2 content where none exists.

HEVC works fine for UHD 1 - not so fine for UHD 2. Just not efficient enough. But help is on the way with VCC which will begin trials mid 2020. Will todays UHD 2 TVs be compatible with VCC?

The forecast for UHD 2 TV sales for 2020 is 500,000 units. Are the TV OEMS going to be pleased with such a small marketplace? Sure the per TV margin is very high but you need sales to capitalize on that. Do the TV OEMS have the patience to keep prices up (high margins) knowing UHD 2 sales will be a drop in their bucket for total overall TV sales.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Lee A Stewart

They have had quite a bit of time to perfect Super Hi-Vision with initial trials beginning in 2003. But it wasn't until 2017 that they realized that 120 FPS HFR needed to be a core feature.

Since we’re delving back into history, building upon BT. 2020, for the historical record –

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

For the historical record with regards to timing and standards, it wasn’t until summer of 2016 that BT.2100 (which is an extension of BT.2020) that ITU-R added 1920 x 1080 HD as a resolution option for producing HDR TV images, as Richard Paul and I discussed back in ’16. This opened the door for broadcasters to choose to use HDR on HD channels.

The thinking behind this addition (which was omitted from BT.2020) then was that daytime programming will not be confined to SDR, also it would offer a value proposition for consumer TV manufacturers, if they so chose, to produce HDR HD televisions in the smaller sizes where spatial rez > than 1080 isn’t as much of a benefit as compared to HDR.

Anyone heard of 2100 or referenced it before, in any sense, like so -

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

^
Which included deep dive visual testing in order to investigate better video conversion practices between BT.2100 PQ and BT.2100 HLG signal formats in order to retain identical appearance of content on matching monitors, despite the fundamental differences between the PQ and HLG input signals ->




Refinement is in progress . AFAIK, there were no functional tetrachromats (referenced below the cute YouTube clip here ->
https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...s#post12513184) in attendance, so everyone was playing (seeing) pretty much at the same level….vision-wise.

[JohnAV]

Originally Posted by bobbyg53

LG TO UNVEIL 2020 REAL 8K TV LINEUP FEATURING NEXT-GEN AI PROCESSOR AT CES 2020

http://www.lgnewsroom.com/2020/01/lg...r-at-ces-2020/

I posted that PR several hours ago on the CES topic, interesting enough the only site that found it initially was MacRumors for upcoming debut of its 2020 8K TV lineup featuring eight new TVs in sizes ranging from 65 inches to 88 inches, all of which support Apple's HomeKit and AirPlay 2.

This upcoming CES has a lot more activity against IoE and home automation for 2020, with Apple, Google, Amazon all having booths featuring their products.

Now that PR announcement for the 2020 lineup is on at least 60 sites now.

[Lee A Stewart]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Anyone heard of 2100 or referenced it before, in any sense

Not specifically as BT.2100 but the 2020 Super Bowl (FOX) will be shot in 1080P HDR then upscaled to UHD (2160P HDR) for broadcast over IP.

[JohnAV]

Sony 2020 lineup leaked briefly online per CES topic post

From WhatHiFi article derived from 4K Films article

The final model mentioned in the leak is the Z8H/ZH8. This is likely an 8K TV that won't replace the existing ZG9 but will instead sit below it, likely as a means of offering 8K at smaller sizes and a more affordable price - the smallest ZG9 is 85in and £14k, after all. The new ZH8 will apparently be offered at 75in and 85in sizes

[RalphoR]

So for 8k the 65" TVs are "dead"?

With all these announcements for 8k products something is coming....otherwise why would any company put so much cash into the development of 8k hardware? Hopefully Robert can shed some light in the next few days.

[JohnAV]

Originally Posted by RalphoR

So for 8k the 65" TVs are "dead"?

With all these announcements for 8k products something is coming....otherwise why would any company put so much cash into the development of 8k hardware? Hopefully Robert can shed some light in the next few days.

LG is introducing the 8K OLED65ZX as per their PR 2020 lineup. Samsung is selling their 65" 8k Q900.

Don't base your thoughts on only Sony rumors.

[RalphoR]

Originally Posted by JohnAV

LG is introducing the 8K OLED65ZX as per their PR 2020 lineup. Samsung is selling their 65" 8k Q900.

Don't base your thoughts on only Sony rumors.

Yeah....but I'm a Sony TV guy