HDR Discussion Thread

[spawningblue]

I'm looking to get into 4K, but I'm on a budget. I was looking at getting a 65" TCL 6 Series TV when a friend offered me his 65" Samsung Q8FN TV for not much more. Reading up, it sounds like it's a great TV other than the fact that Samsung doesn't support Dolby Vision and it seems like most UHDs are using DV instead of HDR10+.

Is it stupid to buy a TV that doesn't support Dolby Vision in this day and age? Do movies look that much better in DV than HDR?

[LordoftheRings]

No it's not. If you have a great deal from your friend like you're saying go for it.
Another year you can upgrade to OLED 8K, there's no rush.
And by that time 4K OLED will be the same price as your friend's QLED.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bq1M...ature=youtu.be

• The LG OLED C8 65" Class I saw for a very reasonable price too.
Check it out, it might also fit your budget. If not ...

Amazing today what you can get for so inexpensive, quality 4K HDR picture and size.

[spawningblue]

Originally Posted by LordoftheRings

No it's not. If you have a great deal from your friend like you're saying go for it.
Another year you can upgrade to OLED 8K, there's no rush.
And by that time 4K OLED will be the same price as your friend's QLED.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bq1M...ature=youtu.be

• The LG OLED C8 65" Class I saw for a very reasonable price too.
Check it out, it might also fit your budget. If not ...

Amazing today what you can get for so inexpensive, quality 4K HDR picture and size.

Unfortunately I'm in Canada where we are still mostly getting 2018 models, and for double the price of what those in the US pay for the 2019 models. My budget is around $1000 Canadian, which I know isn't much for a 4K TV.

The TCL 6 Series TV sells for $850 here and seemed like the best bargain for my buck (I wanted the Vizio M Series but they are tough to find). As for the LG C8 TV you recommended, sells for over $2000 here which is about double my budget.

He was going to sell me his year old Samsung for what I gather is half of what he paid. I assume even without the DV it will look much better than the TCL 6, but I'm just worried with every UHD coming out in DV instead of HDR10+ that the TV will already be outdated and it'll be several years before I can upgrade again. But again, with such a limited budget my options are limited either way.

If I miss out on a few extra colours then it's not the end of the world, but if DV is that much better than HDR10 (As to being a whole new experience) than I'm wondering if I would be better to wait to upgrade.

[PeterTHX]

Originally Posted by spawningblue

Is it stupid to buy a TV that doesn't support Dolby Vision in this day and age? Do movies look that much better in DV than HDR?

Note that DV *is* a type of HDR. Discs encoded with it have a HDR10 base layer. Some discs do look better, some are hard to tell a difference.

[spawningblue]

Originally Posted by PeterTHX

Note that DV *is* a type of HDR. Discs encoded with it have a HDR10 base layer. Some discs do look better, some are hard to tell a difference.

I guess that’s the biggest concern. Whether the discs with the DV look that much better, that in a year I’m going to regret not getting a DV supporter TV. If the upgrade is only minimal then I’m not as concerned, but if it’s a whole other experience then I’m wondering if I should wait another year or so.

[Blue Tint]

Originally Posted by spawningblue

Unfortunately I'm in Canada where we are still mostly getting 2018 models, and for double the price of what those in the US pay for the 2019 models. My budget is around $1000 Canadian, which I know isn't much for a 4K TV.

The TCL 6 Series TV sells for $850 here and seemed like the best bargain for my buck (I wanted the Vizio M Series but they are tough to find). As for the LG C8 TV you recommended, sells for over $2000 here which is about double my budget.

He was going to sell me his year old Samsung for what I gather is half of what he paid. I assume even without the DV it will look much better than the TCL 6, but I'm just worried with every UHD coming out in DV instead of HDR10+ that the TV will already be outdated and it'll be several years before I can upgrade again. But again, with such a limited budget my options are limited either way.

If I miss out on a few extra colours then it's not the end of the world, but if DV is that much better than HDR10 (As to being a whole new experience) than I'm wondering if I would be better to wait to upgrade.

Dolby Vision is not that important a consideration when choosing a TV purchase.
Dolby Vision was created to enable TVs to compensate for their inadequacy in relation to nit performance.

Many TVs (especially budget TVs) cannot reproduce the peak brightness of UHD content accurately as it was created (as well as reproducing colours) and thus DV helps to rectify that problem.
If you purchase a TV that has a high peak brightness (the higher the better) and is accurate in representing the creative content this is more important than if it has DV.

Try for something above 700 nits peak brightness if your budget allows for it.
Ideally, a TV that has a picture preset such as Filmaker Mode would be preferable as this is a preconfigured calibration out of the box that closely represents the filmakers creative intent.

There are many review sites online and make sure you check those out before any purchase as they show the results of their performance out of the box and calibrated.

Alternatively, you could get a TV professionally calibrated but this is around a couple hundred pounds (dollars) should you go down this route.
I am assuming you are purchsing a TV for physical media and predominantly watching films.

[spawningblue]

Originally Posted by Blue Tint

Dolby Vision is not that important a consideration when choosing a TV purchase.
Dolby Vision was created to enable TVs to compensate for their inadequacy in relation to nit performance.

Many TVs (especially budget TVs) cannot reproduce the peak brightness of UHD content accurately as it was created (as well as reproducing colours) and thus DV helps to rectify that problem.
If you purchase a TV that has a high peak brightness (the higher the better) and is accurate in representing the creative content this is more important than if it has DV.

Try for something above 700 nits peak brightness if your budget allows for it.
Ideally, a TV that has a picture preset such as Filmaker Mode would be preferable as this is a preconfigured calibration out of the box that closely represents the filmakers creative intent.

There are many review sites online and make sure you check those out before any purchase as they show the results of their performance out of the box and calibrated.

Alternatively, you could get a TV professionally calibrated but this is around a couple hundred pounds (dollars) should you go down this route.
I am assuming you are purchsing a TV for physical media and predominantly watching films.

Thanks for all of this. It looks like the Samsung I was offered has 1500 nits so I should be pretty good in that respect.

[Blue Tint]

Originally Posted by spawningblue

Thanks for all of this. It looks like the Samsung I was offered has 1500 nits so I should be pretty good in that respect.

Make sure it is peak brightness in either a 5 or 10% window. The reviews of any specific TV will mention this.

[DisplayCalNoob]

Originally Posted by Blue Tint

Dolby Vision is not that important a consideration when choosing a TV purchase.
Dolby Vision was created to enable TVs to compensate for their inadequacy in relation to nit performance.

Many TVs (especially budget TVs) cannot reproduce the peak brightness of UHD content accurately as it was created (as well as reproducing colours) and thus DV helps to rectify that problem.
If you purchase a TV that has a high peak brightness (the higher the better) and is accurate in representing the creative content this is more important than if it has DV.

Try for something above 700 nits peak brightness if your budget allows for it.
Ideally, a TV that has a picture preset such as Filmaker Mode would be preferable as this is a preconfigured calibration out of the box that closely represents the filmakers creative intent.

There are many review sites online and make sure you check those out before any purchase as they show the results of their performance out of the box and calibrated.

Alternatively, you could get a TV professionally calibrated but this is around a couple hundred pounds (dollars) should you go down this route.
I am assuming you are purchsing a TV for physical media and predominantly watching films.

Thats a pretty inaccurate description of Dolby Vision and why it was created for.

[DanBa]

Latest Multi-HDR table:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/465-h...l#post59184152



. Deleted the columns "YouTube HDR VP9-PQ / VP9-HLG", and replaced by the new lines "Codec HEVC / VP9.2 / AV1": YouTube HDR can also be coded in AV1
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/465-h...l#post56949056

. Added the column "HFR 100p/120p (sports, games, …)"
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/465-h...l#post54845156

. Changed the name of the column "Mura/defect correction" to "Panel uniformity control": more comprehensive

. Added Xiaomi

[PeterTHX]

Originally Posted by DanBa

Latest Multi-HDR table:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/465-h...l#post59184152

. Deleted the columns "YouTube HDR VP9-PQ / VP9-HLG", and replaced by the new lines "Codec HEVC / VP9.2 / AV1": YouTube HDR can also be coded in AV1
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/465-h...l#post56949056

. Added the column "HFR 100p/120p (sports, games, …)"
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/465-h...l#post54845156

. Changed the name of the column "Mura/defect correction" to "Panel uniformity control": more comprehensive

. Added Xiaomi

I think Lionsgate can be taken off the HDR10+ list...they tested two titles? Fox HDR10+ should be noted as "ended" with the Disney acquisition.

On that note it can be updated that Disney now only supports Dolby Vision in streaming.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by DisplayCalNoob

Thats a pretty inaccurate description of Dolby Vision and why it was created for.

He's greatly oversimplifying things but the main USP for Dolby Vision in the home is indeed making HDR 'fit' better on displays that aren't up to that task. The actual grading tools at source are no more or less advanced than what the same colourist in the same suite could use for HDR10, it's all the downconversion stuff where the major differences are - but if someone has a display that's nearer to what the content can do than not then DV's downconversion gets progressively dialled back. That still leaves us with 12-bit playback, albeit on the discs that are encoded with FEL and not MEL, but that's so not going to be the amazing difference maker that some people think it is...should we ever actually get affordable 12-bit consumer displays.

[chip75]

Quick question ... If you take two displays with a relatively poor contrast ratio and give one display an extra thousand nits of peak brightness (say from 300 to 1,300 nits), how would that affect dark room viewing? would that make the poor black levels look even more grey?

I'd love an OLED, but I don't think it's going to work in the day and due to other requirements I'm limited to my options.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by chip75

Quick question ... If you take two displays with a relatively poor contrast ratio and give one display an extra thousand nits of peak brightness (say from 300 to 1,300 nits), how would that affect dark room viewing? would that make the poor black levels look even more grey?

I'd love an OLED, but I don't think it's going to work in the day and due to other requirements I'm limited to my options.

Yes, the brighter one would make the poor contrast look perceptually worse (which is what I mean about matey there greatly oversimplifying things, HDR is not just about nits) especially if it was an LCD as the maxed out backlight would be polluting the blacks. If you have great contrast and blacks then that's half the battle with HDR and is why OLEDs are a great choice. But if you can ally good-to-great contrast and deep blacks with sustainably high peak brightness then you've got a best of all worlds combination and is where HDR display tech should be aiming, not just this constant recycling of OLED and a race to the bottom with LCD.

[chip75]

Thanks Geoff D.

All I need is a TV that has an LCD layer for daytime viewing and an OLED layer to watch on my lonesome.

Tempted with an OLED, but I'd have to max the brightness during the day and that's not going to be great for the panel.

[LordoftheRings]

Originally Posted by Blue Tint

...

Try for something above 700 nits peak brightness if your budget allows for it.
Ideally, a TV that has a picture preset such as Filmaker Mode would be preferable as this is a preconfigured calibration out of the box that closely represents the filmakers creative intent.

There are many review sites online and make sure you check those out before any purchase as they show the results of their performance out of the box and calibrated.

...

Originally Posted by spawningblue

Thanks for all of this. It looks like the Samsung I was offered has 1500 nits so I should be pretty good in that respect.

Originally Posted by Blue Tint

Make sure it is peak brightness in either a 5 or 10% window. The reviews of any specific TV will mention this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dDKi...ature=youtu.be

■□ HDR TV https://www.digitaltrends.com/home-t...hat-is-hdr-tv/

By the way, the Q8FN has about 40 dimming zones. ...That's not a lot, so it is something to consider.

* I'm from Canada too. The HDR/DV/HLG LG C8 OLED 4K UHD TV (65" Class) I saw was $1,800 Cdn with extended five years warranty, floor model with less than 200 hours, and burn-in is covered in the warranty (for five years) or full money back...Best Buy Canada.
But it is over your $1,000 budget.

You can't beat that, and with that type of warranty, price, and extended burn-in covering (5 years).
That's $1,800 plus tax...roughly $2,000 total...Canadian loonies.
Even from the US.

[mrtickleuk]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

He's greatly oversimplifying things but the main USP for Dolby Vision in the home is indeed making HDR 'fit' better on displays that aren't up to that task. The actual grading tools at source are no more or less advanced than what the same colourist in the same suite could use for HDR10, it's all the downconversion stuff where the major differences are - but if someone has a display that's nearer to what the content can do than not then DV's downconversion gets progressively dialled back. That still leaves us with 12-bit playback, albeit on the discs that are encoded with FEL and not MEL, but that's so not going to be the amazing difference maker that some people think it is...should we ever actually get affordable 12-bit consumer displays.

Another point to mention, is that the Enhancement Layer where it is used, does a very nice job of fixing any compression artefacts that occurred during the encoding of the base layer. So even aside from the 12bit-ness of it, havin the FEL is a bit like having a sort of two-pass-decoding (I've just made that phrase up to make the point, apologies if it's innaccurate but hopefully my meaning is clear) which gives you a much better picture in the end.

[mrtickleuk]

Originally Posted by LordoftheRings

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dDKi...ature=youtu.be

Unfortunately that's a video made by well-known internet troll and all-round idiot, Quantum TV. Relying on him undermines your point, rather than strengthening it, sadly.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by mrtickleuk

Another point to mention, is that the Enhancement Layer where it is used, does a very nice job of fixing any compression artefacts that occurred during the encoding of the base layer. So even aside from the 12bit-ness of it, havin the FEL is a bit like having a sort of two-pass-decoding (I've just made that phrase up to make the point, apologies if it's innaccurate but hopefully my meaning is clear) which gives you a much better picture in the end.

The FEL rebuild overcoming poor base layer compression and even fixing outright grading errors like on StudioCanal's The Fog UHD is one of the main reasons I still use DV. However, if the base layer was properly encoded the first time - and it can be done - then there'd be no need for DV to come to the rescue. Compression maestro David Mackenzie uses MEL for this reason: he encodes the shit out of the base layer so any potential FEL has very little to actually do.

As with the dynamic tone mapping, it's a very handy feature but one that would ultimately require very little use in an ideal world. We're not in that ideal world though which, as said, is why I still use DV.

[Penton-Man]

https://amp-cnn-com.cdn.ampproject.o...ide/index.html
and in there ^ (mentioned in the article), not only Atmos but a shout out regarding Dolby Vision IQ
P.S.
development thanks to Robin – https://www.linkedin.com/in/robin-atkins-8445197a/
and team