HDR Discussion Thread

[Geoff D]

So they've updated the greyscale panel from 1080p to 4K? 8 million 'zones' it is then. If Sony were to announce one of these tomorrow in 65" I'd whip my credit card out so fast it'd travel back in time.

[sapiendut]

This concept was shown by Dolby around 10-12 years ago at CES. It was 1080p panel with 1080p black and white panel.

[DJR662]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

So they've updated the greyscale panel from 1080p to 4K? 8 million 'zones' it is then. If Sony were to announce one of these tomorrow in 65" I'd whip my credit card out so fast it'd travel back in time.

Just make sure you get your own creditcard back and don't accidentally mistake mine for yours.

The upcoming 5 years are going to be rather interesting already with MiniLED and MicroLED on the horizon. I think if Hisense can really make their ULED tech work in a consumer model, then the big dogs won't be able to stay behind. Better get to it then, Sony!

[Agent Kay]

Originally Posted by PaulGo

Some competition for OLED TVs? This could be a game changer.

Hisense's ULED XD TVs: The OLED Alternative We've Been Waiting For?
Hisense is combining color and monochrome 4K LCDs into one TV to create OLED-like contrast. I saw a concept version of this ULED XD technology in action recently and it's impressive.

https://www.pcmag.com/news/368494/hi...eve-been-waiti

https://www.hisense-usa.com/ULED-TV

It's not CLED but its need they upgraded it.
Wonder if Panafonics may try this also.

[DanBa]

Latest Multi-HDR table: Fox is also supporting Dolby Vision
https://twitter.com/DanielBa78/statu...31736627253248

[Stacey Spears]

Originally Posted by sapiendut

This concept was shown by Dolby around 10-12 years ago at CES. It was 1080p panel with 1080p black and white panel.

Assuming I am understanding what everyone is talking about, sounds just like what the Sony X310, Flanders 311 and the Eizo are using. All should be using the same panel from Panasonic. Works pretty well on axis.

[sapiendut]

Originally Posted by Stacey Spears

Assuming I am understanding what everyone is talking about, sounds just like what the Sony X310, Flanders 311 and the Eizo are using. All should be using the same panel from Panasonic. Works pretty well on axis.

Yup! That’s pretty much it!

[LordoftheRings]

Yesterday I was reading this short article ...
• https://www.forbes.com/sites/johnarc...ormat-war/amp/

I like.

• https://www.flatpanelshd.com/news.ph...&id=1558503366

[DisplayCalNoob]

Originally Posted by LordoftheRings

Yesterday I was reading this short article ...
• https://www.forbes.com/sites/johnarc...ormat-war/amp/

I like.

• https://www.flatpanelshd.com/news.ph...&id=1558503366

Well, the ousting of several decision making execs, definitely made it a lot easier to get the DV support. Cameron, I wouldn't be surprised if he did not make a case for DV inclusion. This also could mean, Avatar and the sequel would get DV grades.

[sapiendut]

Originally Posted by LordoftheRings

Yesterday I was reading this short article ...
• https://www.forbes.com/sites/johnarc...ormat-war/amp/

I like.

• https://www.flatpanelshd.com/news.ph...&id=1558503366

Wouldn’t that essentially increases the production cost? Because they have to create 3 gradings. One for HDR10, another for HDR10+, and also for DV. I welcome it, of course, but I foresee this package will be in the $40 range in Canada (usually new releases are in $$33-$35 range)

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by sapiendut

Wouldn’t that essentially increases the production cost? Because they have to create 3 gradings. One for HDR10, another for HDR10+, and also for DV. I welcome it, of course, but I foresee this package will be in the $40 range in Canada (usually new releases are in $$33-$35 range)

HDR10+ is not "another grade" in any way, shape or form. It's an automated set of metadata run off the main HDR10 grade. That's it. It doesn't do more nits, or more colour, or more whatever else most clueless tech journos think it does. I had to laugh when someone on Vincent Teoh's twitter feed said "let's see how HDR10+ handles 4000 nits" and I thought, "well, we've had 4000-nit HDR10 encodes available from some of the very first UHD discs, literally, so why would it pose a problem for HDR10+?".

If you start with Dolby Vision, as I believe most studios do for home HDR passes, then they do their 'master grade' and create the dynamic metadata from that using the DV suite, using L1 automated data and then a manually adjusted L2 trim pass for whatever subsequent nits level/colour space downconversions they desire. Using this metadata an HDR10 grade is generated, they can then use that grade for the 10+ analysis pass.

So, basically you've got one full-fat DV grade, one intermediate pass for HDR10 which can be as slack or as involved as the colourist sees fit (as Stacey said, his DV trim pass for 1000-nit HDR10 required relatively little intervention and 1000 nit is what the likes of Fox, Disney, Paramount, Universal and sometimes Warners and Lionsgate master their HDR10 grades to) and then the 10+ information is struck from that.

[sapiendut]

Ah! Thank you! I thought my initial info from a certain studio regarding HDR grading was wrong and Vincent is correct so I changed my way of thinking. Getting the confirmation from someone of your calibre is more than good enough for me.

Again, thank you!

[DisplayCalNoob]

@Geoff D It was I, who posed that question to Vincent. It was more about, how well + dynamic metadata and dynamic tone mapping performs concerning 4000 nit, especially those that actually have pixels close to that.

Maybe, I'm a little late on who is providing the dynamic tone mapping. Is it the responsibility of each manufacturer to provide there own dynamic tone mapping or does it come with + like it does with DV?

That is what led to the question.

SMPTE does list one feature, tied to color, "saturation boost", for +.

[LordoftheRings]

Here's a new cool HDR10 monitor from LG (ultra wide and curved)

▪ https://www.areadvd.de/tests/info-lg...hd-aufloesung/

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by DisplayCalNoob

@Geoff D It was I, who posed that question to Vincent. It was more about, how well + dynamic metadata and dynamic tone mapping performs concerning 4000 nit, especially those that actually have pixels close to that.

Maybe, I'm a little late on who is providing the dynamic tone mapping. Is it the responsibility of each manufacturer to provide there own dynamic tone mapping or does it come with + like it does with DV?

That is what led to the question.

SMPTE does list one feature, tied to color, "saturation boost", for +.

Yes but that's still only a trim feature, not anything to do with the actual source HDR as graded, which is the point I'm continually trying to make when it comes to dynamic metadata. All it should be trying to do is reconcile the intent baked into that master grade as best as possible for whatever display it's being shown on.

I'm not sure I understand the question. I recall Penton (who seems to be suspended?) saying that there is no in-built tone mapper for 10+, that each manufacturer can use that metadata pursuant to whichever tone mapping philosophy they have. If they have 4k nit or 10k nit content and the TV adversely reacts - not that we know either way at this point - then that's not on 10+ at all, it's doing what it's supposed to be doing at its core, you'd need to take it up with whichever manufacturer is borking the mapping. 'Twas ever thus with HDR10.

Something interesting about DV vs 10+, given the fuss made by some about DV's frame by frame metadata generation, is that DV is often used for scene by scene analysis and not frame by frame. As part of the automated L1 analysis pass the content should come with an XML file containing an edit list of all the specific scenes in the show, this allows the analysis to be done quicker by changing only on edit points rather than going frame by frame. If the content does not come with an edit list then the analysis must be done in 'Live' mode which will indeed create frame by frame metadata because it doesn't know what's going to happen next, hence the 'Live' name.

(I think some sort of corrupted edit list is why certain scenes in StudioCanal's The Fog UHD have mis-timed grading on the HDR10 layer while the DV is fine, that when they ran off the HDR10 pass no-one noticed that the edit data was now out of sync.)

[DisplayCalNoob]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Yes but that's still only a trim feature, not anything to do with the actual source HDR as graded, which is the point I'm continually trying to make when it comes to dynamic metadata. All it should be trying to do is reconcile the intent baked into that master grade as best as possible for whatever display it's being shown on.

I'm not sure I understand the question. I recall Penton (who seems to be suspended?) saying that there is no in-built tone mapper for 10+, that each manufacturer can use that metadata pursuant to whichever tone mapping philosophy they have. If they have 4k nit or 10k nit content and the TV adversely reacts - not that we know either way at this point - then that's not on 10+ at all, it's doing what it's supposed to be doing at its core, you'd need to take it up with whichever manufacturer is borking the mapping. 'Twas ever thus with HDR10.

Something interesting about DV vs 10+, given the fuss made by some about DV's frame by frame metadata generation, is that DV is often used for scene by scene analysis and not frame by frame. As part of the automated L1 analysis pass the content should come with an XML file containing an edit list of all the specific scenes in the show, this allows the analysis to be done quicker by changing only on edit points rather than going frame by frame. If the content does not come with an edit list then the analysis must be done in 'Live' mode which will indeed create frame by frame metadata because it doesn't know what's going to happen next, hence the 'Live' name.

(I think some sort of corrupted edit list is why certain scenes in StudioCanal's The Fog UHD have mis-timed grading on the HDR10 layer while the DV is fine, that when they ran off the HDR10 pass no-one noticed that the edit data was now out of sync.)

A few years back, I believe it was @Stacey Spears during a interview with Scott Wilkinson, said that Dolby(concerning dynamic tone mapping) does it right. Dolby themselves mention the risk of visible artfacts, that can occur when tone mapping content mastered to 4000 nit.

[Geoff D]

But isn't that just a general concern about HDR mapping then? I say again that we've had 4000-nit HDR10 content from day one on disc, with the 4000-nit mastering containers being at the root of poorly mapped titles like Goodfeathers (which is virtually SDR inside an HDR container) so if anything the addition of 10+ will help and not hinder that process, as will the improved tone mapping across manufacturers in general.

[LordoftheRings]

He'll be back...Penton's the man. Without him Top Gun would be Low Gun.
...And there's Tom Jones, Jerry Bruck..., and Chuck.

[LordoftheRings]

Just something super short I've read not that long ago from not too far away ...
• https://www.digitimes.com/news/a20190522PD210.html

[tvine2000]

Originally Posted by DisplayCalNoob

So the deliverables are just what Netflix receives from production, in RGB 4:4:4 Full Range P3 D65 before it is encoded to 4:2:0 color space.

Marvel Avengers Infinity War has big differences visually in my opinion, between the DV and HDR10. One obvious aspect is APL, the movie is just brighter with the Vudu DV stream and there is better color.

Is this just DV?

So I have a question? Are you seeing true Dolby Vision. 12 bit Dolby Vision.I ask because I know of only one professional calibrator that has the balls to tell the truth about Dolby Vision in home theaters. And that truth is DV in the home is a gimmick at this point .Why is that? Well at this point we have 10 bit panels,right. So how can someone with a 10 bit panel see a technology that is 12 bit in the spec? What I believe one is seeing is the active metadata but just not in 12 bit. I posed this question on the AVS form and was mean't with let say a feeling that I was some kind of nut.How dare I ask a question like that. One guy made a comment that not all Dolby theaters are 12 bit.??? Really so what's the point of having a Dolby theater if it's not true DV in the theater. Makes no sense to me.And why would Dolby push the 12 bit thing and build a theater with 10 bit technology? What am I missing here? In the 60's on the audio side we had albums recorded in mono mixed in mono, but then stereo really caught on and cheap stereo receivers hit the stores.The industry saw this and took mono masters and came up with a way to give us stereo recordings of the same mono albums.But what it really was, was fake stereo and maybe on the video side until we get 12 bit panels I think were seeing fake DV at this point. I wish sites pushing DV would stop this agenda, maybe 12 bit panels would happen sooner rather then later.