HDR Discussion Thread

[tvine2000]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

I was extremely sceptical about it, being loathe to update my 4K TV at that point and so I was more concerned about how SDR conversion would shake down more than anything. But in a way it's all worked out as my reticence meant that I held out for as long as I could for buying a new TV, so when I took the plunge I bought the best I could possibly afford (though having three grand burning a hole in your pocket helps) and two years later the ZD9 is still wowing me, as is HDR itself.

But isn't HDR kind of broken right now. We have yet another format war going on ,HDR10 ,DV and HDR10+. What i mean by broken is some TV manufacturers do it well and others do it bad. I have never seen a standard yet. Maybe high end TVS are better at doing HDR then the 300.00 models.Or am I asking the wrong questions.

[LordoftheRings]

It's like a lottery; you read the pro reviews, you read what you're interested mostly in (HDR, HDR10, HDR10+, HLG, Dolby Vision, OLED, QLED, Panasonic, Sony, LG, Samsung, ...), the size, the price, ...

• https://www.rtings.com/tv/reviews/be...-on-the-market

You have a good one (Samsung 48"); you can watch both 4K and 3D Blu-rays on it.
All TVs since 2016 don't support 3D ... except for the 2017 Sony Z9D.

If your TV supports 3D and 4K HDR you're flying high.
If it supports only 4K HDR10+ and Dolby Vision and HLG you're short of 3D.
So most people are short of something, be it 3D, Dolby Vision, HDR10+, HLG, ...
Unless you also have a 3D 4K HDR front projector for those 3D Blu-rays and of course a bigger picture...Sony, JVC, Epson, etc.

But you know all that. The best standard is the balance between the pro reference reviews and your personal preference. To me it is, plus reliability and service.

Short of that a professional 4K HDR reference monitor...around $30,000 and a much smaller picture.
_____

* Fresh: https://www.rollingstone.com/tv/tv-n...ed-838895/amp/

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by tvine2000

But isn't HDR kind of broken right now. We have yet another format war going on ,HDR10 ,DV and HDR10+. What i mean by broken is some TV manufacturers do it well and others do it bad. I have never seen a standard yet. Maybe high end TVS are better at doing HDR then the 300.00 models.Or am I asking the wrong questions.

HDR is all over the place when it comes to how TVs react to it. The dynamic metadata format(s) was designed to bridge that gap, as well as in-house dynamic mapping and the HDR Optimiser of certain Panasonic players, but they're all doing it their own way so it's still a cluster****.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by tvine2000

So I have a question? Are you seeing true Dolby Vision. 12 bit Dolby Vision.I ask because I know of only one professional calibrator that has the balls to tell the truth about Dolby Vision in home theaters. And that truth is DV in the home is a gimmick at this point .Why is that? Well at this point we have 10 bit panels,right. So how can someone with a 10 bit panel see a technology that is 12 bit in the spec? What I believe one is seeing is the active metadata but just not in 12 bit. I posed this question on the AVS form and was mean't with let say a feeling that I was some kind of nut.How dare I ask a question like that. One guy made a comment that not all Dolby theaters are 12 bit.??? Really so what's the point of having a Dolby theater if it's not true DV in the theater. Makes no sense to me.And why would Dolby push the 12 bit thing and build a theater with 10 bit technology? What am I missing here? In the 60's on the audio side we had albums recorded in mono mixed in mono, but then stereo really caught on and cheap stereo receivers hit the stores.The industry saw this and took mono masters and came up with a way to give us stereo recordings of the same mono albums.But what it really was, was fake stereo and maybe on the video side until we get 12 bit panels I think were seeing fake DV at this point. I wish sites pushing DV would stop this agenda, maybe 12 bit panels would happen sooner rather then later.

A 12-bit source can still give you better results on a 10-bit TV than a 10-bit source. This is why the internal processing in my Sony TV runs at 14-bit despite it only having a 10-bit panel. Look up what 'oversampling' means.

NOT that I think 12-bit panels themselves will instantly make these things look like different films, some folks are seriously overstating the impact that 12-bit displays will make to our overall viewing.

[DisplayCalNoob]

Originally Posted by tvine2000

So I have a question? Are you seeing true Dolby Vision. 12 bit Dolby Vision.I ask because I know of only one professional calibrator that has the balls to tell the truth about Dolby Vision in home theaters. And that truth is DV in the home is a gimmick at this point .Why is that? Well at this point we have 10 bit panels,right. So how can someone with a 10 bit panel see a technology that is 12 bit in the spec? What I believe one is seeing is the active metadata but just not in 12 bit. I posed this question on the AVS form and was mean't with let say a feeling that I was some kind of nut.How dare I ask a question like that. One guy made a comment that not all Dolby theaters are 12 bit.??? Really so what's the point of having a Dolby theater if it's not true DV in the theater. Makes no sense to me.And why would Dolby push the 12 bit thing and build a theater with 10 bit technology? What am I missing here? In the 60's on the audio side we had albums recorded in mono mixed in mono, but then stereo really caught on and cheap stereo receivers hit the stores.The industry saw this and took mono masters and came up with a way to give us stereo recordings of the same mono albums.But what it really was, was fake stereo and maybe on the video side until we get 12 bit panels I think were seeing fake DV at this point. I wish sites pushing DV would stop this agenda, maybe 12 bit panels would happen sooner rather then later.

Dolby doesn't build any theaters, and whether or not a laser projector is or is not12 bit or 10 bit, my guess is that, that is up to the theater owner or AMC. Dolby tech, install the projector, calibrate it, and set up Dolby Atmos sound system and speaker placement.

12 bit panels may come next year. The visual differences means no color banding and posterization, although the processing may need to exceed 12 bits, for peace of mind (posterization),when brightness exceeds the capabilities of 10 bit panels.

The amount of colors available, jumps significantly as well. In some releases, you can see the additional hues not present in the HDR10 version.

[Stacey Spears]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

But isn't that just a general concern about HDR mapping then? I say again that we've had 4000-nit HDR10 content from day one on disc, with the 4000-nit mastering containers being at the root of poorly mapped titles like Goodfeathers (which is virtually SDR inside an HDR container) so if anything the addition of 10+ will help and not hinder that process, as will the improved tone mapping across manufacturers in general.

HDR10+ will help displays in the 300-400 nit range. On a 1000+ nit display, you may not see any difference.

The default target value is 400 in Transkoder, when you create the HDR10+ metadata. I had initially made it 1000, but then I was asked to lower it to 500 by those working on HDR10+.

It may also benefit global dimming more than FALD, just like DV L1 dynamic metadata does.

[Stacey Spears]

Originally Posted by tvine2000

So I have a question? Are you seeing true Dolby Vision. 12 bit Dolby Vision.I ask because I know of only one professional calibrator that has the balls to tell the truth about Dolby Vision in home theaters. And that truth is DV in the home is a gimmick at this point .Why is that? Well at this point we have 10 bit panels,right. So how can someone with a 10 bit panel see a technology that is 12 bit in the spec? What I believe one is seeing is the active metadata but just not in 12 bit. I posed this question on the AVS form and was mean't with let say a feeling that I was some kind of nut.How dare I ask a question like that. One guy made a comment that not all Dolby theaters are 12 bit.??? Really so what's the point of having a Dolby theater if it's not true DV in the theater. Makes no sense to me.And why would Dolby push the 12 bit thing and build a theater with 10 bit technology? What am I missing here? In the 60's on the audio side we had albums recorded in mono mixed in mono, but then stereo really caught on and cheap stereo receivers hit the stores.The industry saw this and took mono masters and came up with a way to give us stereo recordings of the same mono albums.But what it really was, was fake stereo and maybe on the video side until we get 12 bit panels I think were seeing fake DV at this point. I wish sites pushing DV would stop this agenda, maybe 12 bit panels would happen sooner rather then later.

12-bit is just an option for Dolby Vision and HDR10, which is called HDR12 in that case. The dynamic metadata and trim pass support is what makes Dolby Vision, well, Dolby Vision.

[LordoftheRings]

Stacey, what TV technology and type of front projection are you using @ home with your family and friends?
...Blu-ray players?

[Stacey Spears]

Originally Posted by DisplayCalNoob

12 bit panels may come next year.

Most panels are still 8-bit today using dither like FRC to reduce banding.

Using dual modulation, you can make a panel act like it is 12-bit today, which is what at least one profession grading monitor does. Possibly two since another licensed that technology for theirs, though I have not seen it in action.

[Stacey Spears]

Originally Posted by LordoftheRings

Stacey, what TV technology and type of front projection are you using @ home with your family and friends?

I still have a 1080p DLP. I am planning to replace it with the 88" OLED next year. My current screen is 90", so I can live with 88". I don't like HDR on any of the projection technology today. 300 nits is EDR to me. Maybe micro LED will become affordable sooner, rather than later.

I have a B7 and a Z9D in my office, which was used during the creation of the disc. I want to replace the B7 with a C9.

[DisplayCalNoob]

Originally Posted by Stacey Spears

HDR10+ will help displays in the 300-400 nit range. On a 1000+ nit display, you may not see any difference.

The default target value is 400 in Transkoder, when you create the HDR10+ metadata. I had initially made it 1000, but then I was asked to lower it to 500 by those working on HDR10+.

It may also benefit global dimming more than FALD, just like DV L1 dynamic metadata does.

Is that just for the lower end of PQ?

I do remember watching a demo at one of the local Best Buys, the demo focused on shadow detail. So there will not be any metadata for the upper end of PQ, just the usual HDR10 metadata?

[Stacey Spears]

Originally Posted by DisplayCalNoob

Is that just for the lower end of PQ?

I do remember watching a demo at one of the local Best Buys, the demo focused on shadow detail. So there will not be any metadata for the upper end of PQ, just the usual HDR10 metadata?

No, it is for the entire PQ range. Its just to try and make the best out of a low end HDR display. High end HDR displays don't benefit as much from dynamic metadata.

[Mierzwiak]

I just bought better UHD player so I thought I would test how Panasonic's HDR Optimizer works compared to LG's dynamic tone mapping. I'm not a fan of it; well, I AM, but not in 100%, I just think sometimes it unnecessarly modifies scenes / shots that should be left just how they are.

Below are 4 photos I took from the shot at the end of Pacific Rim, which, as we know, is full of very bright elements close to 4000 nits. Please ignore crushed ocean and overall brightness, I lowered exposure to better show sky and the clouds.

Of course I checked more scenes and what surprised me the most is that LG's dynamic tone mapping looked even better than Dolby Vision, with clouds being more detailed, layered and three-dimensional.
Panasonic's Optimizer brings back many clipped details, but less than LG's tone mapping, and it makes bright elements, how to describe it, flat; darker, with less contrast.

UHD, HDR10, no dynamic tone mapping


UHD, HDR10, Panasonic's HDR Optimizer on


UHD, HDR10, LG's dynamic tone mapping on


iTunes, Dolby Vision

[sapiendut]

I usually have both running. LG TV’s tone mapping with Panasonic’s HDR Optimizer

[Robert Zohn]

Thanks for reporting your findings. In our testing with LG's C9 and Panasonic's UB820 and UB9000 our results are quite different.

What picture mode is your B8 set to? Also I assume the UB820's HDR Optimizer mode is set to "OLED" and the HDR Optimizer is enabled. Also enable LG tone mapping.

Wish you were in the US as I'd love to chat so we can be sure your LG B8 OLED and UB820 are set-up and configured optionally.

[Mierzwiak]

Originally Posted by Robert Zohn

Thanks for reporting your findings. In our testing with LG's C9 and Panasonic's UB820 and UB9000 our results are quite different.

How exactly? I would love to get more details!

What picture mode is your B8 set to? Also I assume the UB820's HDR Optimizer mode is set to "OLED" and the HDR Optimizer is enabled. Also enable LG tone mapping.

I'm watching HDR10 in Technicolor Expert. Like I said above LG tone mapping doesn't work well with Optimizer.

[sapiendut]

That’s weird. In my previous calibrations, using the TV tone mapping while using optimizer shows slighty more details.

[Robert Zohn]

Actually Panasonic designed the HDR Optimizer to be used with all TVs and projectors with their tone mapping enabled.

For example of your OLED TV, when you select "OLED" in the HDMI/HDR Optimizer menu the UB820 or UB9000 knows you have an OLED and it tone maps all HDR streamed and physical discs to start the EOTF PQ curve at 0 Nits and go up to 1,000 Nits.

This is perfectly matched for your LG B8 OLED to take over the perfectly tone mapped content and further apply it's tone mapping to match the 700 Nit max luminance ability of your OLED display.

[Mierzwiak]

OK, I want to clarify my previous statement after looking at this shot again:
Yes, there are more details in the clouds with both LG tone mapping and Optimizer enabled.

[Staying Salty]

Originally Posted by Stacey Spears

HDR10+ will help displays in the 300-400 nit range. On a 1000+ nit display, you may not see any difference.

The default target value is 400 in Transkoder, when you create the HDR10+ metadata. I had initially made it 1000, but then I was asked to lower it to 500 by those working on HDR10+.

Originally Posted by Staying Salty

Well Geoff you nailed it (without realizing it ). While we were fighting over dynamic metadata on high nit displays, it was the lower nit displays that were the real Samsung target.

Funny thing is that HDR10+ is on the Premium high nit Samsung TVs.

While Dolby Vision is on a number of lower nit displays.