HDR Discussion Thread

[Mierzwiak]

Just for fun - Mad Max: Fury Road (UHD, HDR10)

Dynamic tone mapping OFF, Optimizer OFF


Dynamic tone mapping OFF, Optimizer ON


Dynamic tone mapping ON, Optimizer OFF


Dynamic tone mapping ON, Optimizer ON


It's hard to capture it, but there are indeed extra details when both dynamic tone mapping and optimizer are enabled.
But Fury Road is such a weird example, with crrrayzay bright specular highlights and a lot of weird artifacts, like the one here:
https://caps-a-holic.com/c.php?a=3&x...3&l=0&i=0&go=1

Sometimes Optimizer makes them even more visible, like in the stunning sand storm scene - some lightnings have additional "patches" of color, similar to the one in link from caps-a-holic and flames can also be problematic.

From the movies I have on UHD Optimizer seems to be doing the most in Fury Road, Pacific Rim, Batman v Superman, Starship Troopers and Man of Steel, on a smaller scale in Blade Runner and Wonder Woman.

On my OLED (and with OLED selected in player's menu) it doesn't work in movies mastered to 1000 nits, even in shots with highlights above that level like a few with Thor's lightnings in the first Avengers.

[Agent Kay]

Originally Posted by Stacey Spears

HDR10+ will help displays in the 300-400 nit range. On a 1000+ nit display, you may not see any difference.

The default target value is 400 in Transkoder, when you create the HDR10+ metadata. I had initially made it 1000, but then I was asked to lower it to 500 by those working on HDR10+.

It may also benefit global dimming more than FALD, just like DV L1 dynamic metadata does.

Is that not the point of the dynamic HDR formats? Helping low nit displays and ones with poor tone mapping?
The 1000+ ones with FALD good tone mapping do not really need the help?

[DJR662]

I once used that same shot of Fury Road to see how much details I could "get back" using the Optimizer on the 820.

It was negligible on the Z9D to the point I did not find it worth using for at all. It made a big difference with my 385ES projector though.

[DisplayCalNoob]

Originally Posted by Staying Salty

Funny thing is that HDR10+ is on the Premium high nit Samsung TVs.

While Dolby Vision is on a number of lower nit displays.

I've been thinking the same thing, for the last 3 years. Stacey made it clear that, the majority of UHD DV/HDR10/+ content is mastered to a 1000 nits. Content mastered to 4000 nit rarely come close to that peak. Which makes DV actual bread and butter, the enhancement layer, 12 bit, maybe include ICtCp as a color space and color difference de_ictcp. Also the trim pass features that I assume come in to play when there is content like Aquaman, Batman vs Superman, Pacific Rim, Lego Movie and others to come.

[cgpublic]

Originally Posted by Mierzwiak

OK, I want to clarify my previous statement after looking at this shot again:
Yes, there are more details in the clouds with both LG tone mapping and Optimizer enabled.

Based on the screen shots, to my eyes the LG Dynamic Tone Mapping without the HDR Optimizer appears to be the most organic. I would welcome a comparison of how the HDR Optimizer stacks up against UHD DV. Personally, I enable the LG DTM on my C8 for most HDR10 discs.

Also, I'm curious how LG's new AI for image processing, at present and in the future, will play out with external image processing from disc players. The old axiom, too many cooks spoils the broth may come into play.

The other big takeaway is how similar the iTunes 4K/DV screen shot appears to the UHD disc.

Based on the screen, if you asked consumers of the two screens, screen A is half the price with the convenience of just pressing a button as opposed to screen B, which twice the purchase price and requires to load a disc, well, some people aren't going to be happy with the results.

[FilmFreakosaurus]

HDR is still one big clusterf...

[Lee A Stewart]

Technicolor, NAB Celebrate Successful ATSC 3.0 Test

Technicolor, LG, two Korean technology providers and others are celebrating today, following a successful field test of ATSC 3.0 in Cleveland, one that proved the next-gen transmission standard is capable of UHD upconverted high dynamic range (HDR) video in a densely populated metro area.

https://www.widescreenreview.com/new...l.php?id=21738

https://hdguru.com/atsc-3-0-test-for...mense-success/

[Penton-Man]

wuz up peeps?

[Penton-Man]

I notice lots for me to play catch-up on, but first off, as a reminder announcement with regards to May 28, see this previous heads up - https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...p#post16387887

And further on that audio note, what be the most cutting edge work on the horizon?
In a nutshell, using deep learning (AI) techniques can improve traditional audio and enhance next gen immersive audio, more detail:

Artificial Intelligence in Audio Event at Dolby Soho - 477 Broadway, NY | Dolby Soho | Dolby - YouTube

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by DisplayCalNoob

So the deliverables are just what Netflix receives from production, in RGB 4:4:4 Full Range P3 D65 before it is encoded to 4:2:0 color space.

Cal, ICYMI, I posted this last September in discussion with Geoff, in terms of ^ color encoding and colorspace, see p.8 of the drivegoogle file –

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

It’s more complex than this outline –



In the last step of Dolby Vision color grading, the post production facility typically creates a UHD Dolby Vision mezzanine master (MXF 12-Bit RGB JPEG2000 file + an XML) and OTT content creators like Netflix, etc. like to have it then formatted into an IMF file (depending on the frame rate either IMF Main Level 7, Sub-level 4 or IMF Main Level 6, Sub-level 3 (see p.7 - https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B37...5sMzNwcmc/view )

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

I was extremely sceptical about it, being loathe to update my 4K TV at that point and so I was more concerned about how SDR conversion would shake down more than anything. But in a way it's all worked out as my reticence meant that I held out for as long as I could for buying a new TV, so when I took the plunge I bought the best I could possibly afford (though having three grand burning a hole in your pocket helps) and two years later the ZD9 is still wowing me, as is HDR itself.

To the ^ bolded, me too with Zed –
https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...d#post13596399
although I rarely mention it, especially, when for me, the thrill of any TV purchase has been watered down (maybe I’m getting old?) since I purchased that $10,000+ TV which was in the very first batch that arrived in the U.S. by plane back in the day and the 2nd actually sold as documented on an owner’s thread on another AV forum.

For the record, the first 006 went to my San Diego friend - https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...7#post15219271
Perhaps it’s better sometimes to be 2nd as the optical block in my 006 lasted longer than his did. Then from the 006 I bought the 005 - https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...5#post15210992

ETC., etc…..seems in order to remain at the cutting edge of the ‘immersive’ home video entertainment pastime it feels somewhat similar, on a lesser scale, to the expense in maintaining a boat. It never stops draining your money

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Stacey Spears

The check discs arrived on Friday. We should sign off this week. Discs should be available 2-3 weeks later. (Shipping from Europe)

excellent Stacey, and we always appreciate exclusive illustrative pics.
I’d bet those shiny discs represent hours and hours of work. Good thing it’s one of your passions.

[LordoftheRings]

Ah, @ last ...

Watching that AI Audio event @ Dolby right now ...

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Stacey Spears

This was to also educate. Only white goes to 10,000, blue can only go to 593 fully saturated. So when people ask why you want 10,000, its so you can have 593 nits of blue. On a 1000 nit display, blue can only go to 59 nits fully saturated.

Little different numbers and parameters, but the following remains a good primer to newbies and a refresher for the more experienced reader in order to emphasize the concept of brightness and color, especially in regards to the color blue, with a visual aid(s).

This from July 2015 on Blu-ray.com (I doubt it having been posted on any other forum or the tweeter prior to that date) and cutting edge revelation at the time –

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Best way to think of the concept is rather than thinking about color gamuts in terms of CIE chromaticity charts and plotted triangles of 709, P3, 2020 as typically depicted for illustrative comparisons.... https://ascmag.com/blog

is to envision more of a 3D volumetric appearance, considering both color and intensity (brightness) in order to show the resultant color potential of a particular gamut when you add the brightness of HDR to the traditional intensity.

For example, here a pic of P3 color volume in SDR range (~ 0-100 nits) with nits being on the y axis if the numbers are difficult for some to read -



Now, here a pic of HDR P3 color volume boundaries (the larger green cubic like structure enveloping SDR P3) which are roughly possible when grading in HDR (Dolby) displaying on a Pulsar monitor. (in this case, Dolby is calling it EDR which stands for Extended Dynamic Range but that’s just semantics)

EDR = https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...ge#post9489764

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by LordoftheRings

Ah, @ last ...

Watching that AI Audio event @ Dolby right now ...

go for it

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Stacey Spears

Assuming I am understanding what everyone is talking about, sounds just like what the Sony X310, Flanders 311 and the Eizo are using. All should be using the same panel from Panasonic....

Yes, from May 17, 2017, contribution to the thread by a senior software engineer from your old stomping grounds and also a part time colorist whose done some HDR grading, the back-and-forth....

Originally Posted by zmarty

Since I am actively looking for a new grading monitor, let me share some NAB 2017 news:

In November 2016 Panasonic announced that they have created a panel with 1,000,000:1 contrast at a sustained brightness of 1000 nits. The contrast is the same as an OLED panel, but with none of the OLED drawbacks, such as brightness limiting. Until now the best contrast ratio you could get with an LED panel was less than 20,000:1 with most displays at less than 1000:1. This new panel is to be produced in 12, 31, and 55 inch versions.

This week EIZO and FSI announced two color grading monitors using this panel....

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Dual modulation LED panel architecture (with its associated smarts) was indeed an attractive thing for display searchers at NAB. While I was browsing the booths with a friend formerly of the IPL in Trieste, he informed me of an old article he was familiar with on some aspects of the subject…..http://www2.units.it/ipl/res_display.htm

The reason I link this article now is that some online ‘experts’ disparage the 4,000 nit Dolby Pulsar as being retina searing or burning when in reality they have little or no experience with its use. Note this line from the article….“A film-based radiographic image, viewed on the light box, can reach a peak luminance of 3000 – 4000 cd/m²…..”

Kind of makes one wonder how for decades, millions of diagnostic radiologists looking at x-rays on a light box for 8 hrs./day (or, I’m told more) didn’t suffer from burned out retinas.

They didn’t….and neither are colorists who are working with the Pulsar day-to-day.

[DisplayCalNoob]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Cal, ICYMI, I posted this last September in discussion with Geoff, in terms of ^ color encoding and colorspace, see p.8 of the drivegoogle file –

All there encodes today, should be ICtCp in color space, right?

[gkolb]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

... the expense in maintaining a boat. It never stops draining your money

Yeah, or swimming pools. New motors, new seals, new plaster, new tile, etc, etc, etc.

Oh, Welcome Back from the great beyond.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

a senior software engineer from your old stomping grounds and also a part time colorist whose done some HDR grading,

^
P.S.
After completing his coursework and I would assume excellently defended his dissertation, z is to be awarded his Ph.D. in Computer Science (https://engineering.lehigh.edu/sites...ve_v1_18_0.pdf) this weekend if memory serves.

Good job zmarty , working and getting a doctorate at the same time proves such an accomplishment is difficult but not mutually exclusive.

[Waboman]

Well look what the cat dragged in. How was your “vacation?”