4K Movies Releases

[pentatonic]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

An analogy for a type of high performance engine would be, in broad strokes, one proposed specification to the major Hollywood studios for Next Generation Video….http://www.movielabs.com/ngvideo/Mov...deo%20v1.0.pdf

Wow semi-bro, if those Movielabs recommendations make up the new standard and are really incorporated (how needs to be seen I guess), now that will be a very good reason to migrate to 4K/UHD. I love the fact that while not a direct standard want, they do encourage True 4K, with no scaling to boot. That will be awesome, since it's an association of the majors, looking great .

Do you think CIE XYZ (31 I guess) is easy to attain?

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by pentatonic

Wow....
....Do you think CIE XYZ (31 I guess) is easy to attain?

Well, converting XYZ content into “realizable colors” with in-home TVs aint easy like Sunday morr-nin -

Lionel Richie - Easy like Sunday morning 1996 - YouTube

As the idea of motion picture studios using XYZ color space for encoding (esp. as a color difference signal YDzDx) and transporting high dynamic range XYZ encoded content is truly thinking out of the box….or cube, if you will.

Be it XYZ or B.T.2020, the challenge be with the gamut mapping…https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...ng#post8628824

A TV capable of 4k/60 Hz has a pixel rate of ~ 500 megapixels per second, so that should be the speed of a color space conversion and gamut mapping circuit which could be implemented in a 3D LUT in the TV or player device.

Bottom line is that XYZ is attainable intellectually as well as technologically, heck Dolby claims they can tweak Dolby Vision to support the XYZ color space if needed for certain applications and they’ve actually already presented their math regarding a perceptual quantizer as an EOTF using the XYZ color space about a 1½ ago, scroll down to the SMPTE Tech abstract linked near the bottom of the post here…. https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...by#post7325076

The exciting thing is that Next Gen video with its 4K/HDR/WCG combo will provide a ‘Wow’ increase in the picture quality in contrast to the incremental step-by-step improvements in picture quality we’ve been experiencing over the years with HD tvs and content….which, comparatively speaking, have been more on the order of marginal than ‘Wow’.

[Richard Paul]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

An analogy for a type of high performance engine would be, in broad strokes, one proposed specification to the major Hollywood studios for Next Generation Video….http://www.movielabs.com/ngvideo/Mov...deo%20v1.0.pdf

5 years ago the idea of the XYZ color space would have sounded nice but today I do wonder why the major movie studios are pushing for this. The Rec. 2020 color space would be cheaper (compared to supporting any color space that can fit within the XYZ container) and it is possible to make a reference display for it (the NHK has done that with a laser projector). If the movie studios are planning to use the DCI P3 color space in the XYZ container than they are basically planning to make consumers pay more for less.

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

As the idea of motion picture studios using XYZ color space for encoding (esp. as a color difference signal YDzDx) and transporting high dynamic range XYZ encoded content is truly thinking out of the box….or cube, if you will.

Be it XYZ or B.T.2020, the challenge be with the gamut mapping…https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...ng#post8628824

A TV capable of 4k/60 Hz has a pixel rate of ~ 500 megapixels per second, so that should be the speed of a color space conversion and gamut mapping circuit which could be implemented in a 3D LUT in the TV or player device.

Isn't there is a difference between gamut mapping between two fixed color spaces and gamut mapping between any color space that can be put inside the XYZ container? The movie studios did choose 2048x1080 for movies even though the HDTV standard was made almost a decade earlier so they are known to make decisions for marketing reasons.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Richard Paul

...If the movie studios are planning to use the DCI P3 color space in the XYZ container than they are basically planning to make consumers pay more for less.

If that were ultimately to come to pass, yes, as compared to just settling on B.T.2020, I agree with you. Possible dubious self-serving corporate motives aside, from a purely engineering standpoint, since XYZ transmits an unlimited color gamut it is more future proof than B.T.2020.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Richard Paul

Isn't there is a difference between gamut mapping between two fixed color spaces and gamut mapping between any color space that can be put inside the XYZ container? The movie studios did choose 2048x1080 for movies even though the HDTV standard was made almost a decade earlier so they are known to make decisions for marketing reasons.

I was referring to the similar requirement for dual output for legacy (Rec.709) displays:
XYZ -> legacy displays will need gamut mapping.
B.T. 2020 -> legacy displays will need gamut mapping.

The challenge with gamut mapping lies with the input colors that are beyond the display gamut….display meaning the consumer’s display. It’s an involved topic. Gamut mapping, in any motion picture advanced context, is complex stuff as elucidated by a Technicolor scientist from Rennes -

Motion Picture Versioning by Gamut Mapping - YouTube

As far as the ‘XYZ container’, a most interesting part of the MovieLabs spec is the paragraph on Color Space on page 3 of the pdf of the entire spec….”Content will be delivered encoded the CIE XYZ color space, transported either in an X’Y’Z’ or in a color differenced Y’DzDx format. The player device and next generation display shall have the capability to process the XYZ encoded content and convert this to realizable colors.”

So, given that (bolding by me), many folks believe that using XYZ-> consumer displays may be fraught with difficult technical pitfalls, for which, on the other hand, will not be so much the case with the color differenced Y’DzDx format.

[Penton-Man]

Along with my lovely wife, I’m off for a post-Valentine’s Day…..err week, in doing our annual pilgrimage to a tech retreat in the dez in order to be illuminated - http://www.creativecow.net/interstit...ry/874052&id=0. Some reporter-types on some internet site(s) will probably be covering at least one day or so of the brain trust gathering so for those so interested, keep an eye out.

Steed, another year passes without our little fella accompanying us on significant events… https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...la#post7157656

He is still missed as he is thought of, as well as talked about, in our household on a daily basis. Yesterday, I gave my wife a bouquet of flowers and took her out to one of the best restaurants in the area, my coyotes got sirloin steaks (I should post a recent pic of them) and all I could give ‘the little fella’ was a prayer offered up to heaven.

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Along with my lovely wife, I’m off for a post-Valentine’s Day…..err week, in doing our annual pilgrimage to a tech retreat in the dez in order to be illuminated - http://www.creativecow.net/interstit...ry/874052&id=0. Some reporter-types on some internet site(s) will probably be covering at least one day or so of the brain trust gathering so for those so interested, keep an eye out.

Steed, another year passes without our little fella accompanying us on significant events… https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...la#post7157656

He is still missed as he is thought of, as well as talked about, in our household on a daily basis. Yesterday, I gave my wife a bouquet of flowers and took her out to one of the best restaurants in the area, my coyotes got sirloin steaks (I should post a recent pic of them) and all I could give ‘the little fella’ was a prayer offered up to heaven.

Yep, It aches how much I miss my little buddy. I'm sure you feel the same way as I, blessed to have had them in our lives.
Penton Man, I will try to post a pic of my dog at some point. I have many pictures of him.

Sweet comments about your pet by the way.

[Richard Paul]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

If that were ultimately to come to pass, yes, as compared to just settling on B.T.2020, I agree with you. Possible dubious self-serving corporate motives aside, from a purely engineering standpoint, since XYZ transmits an unlimited color gamut it is more future proof than B.T.2020.

I just find it a bit fishy that the movie studios are suddenly wanting support for the XYZ color space but that they aren't trying to improve the projector color space that is required by the DCI specification. If they were trying to do both I wouldn't be suspicious but the current proposal might just be a way for the movie studios to claim they are delivering something better than UHDTV while delivering something inferior.

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

As far as the ‘XYZ container’, a most interesting part of the MovieLabs spec is the paragraph on Color Space on page 3 of the pdf of the entire spec….”Content will be delivered encoded the CIE XYZ color space, transported either in an X’Y’Z’ or in a color differenced Y’DzDx format. The player device and next generation display shall have the capability to process the XYZ encoded content and convert this to realizable colors.”

So, given that (bolding by me), many folks believe that using X’Y’Z’ -> consumer displays may be fraught with difficult technical pitfalls, for which, on the other hand, will not be so much the case with the color differenced Y’DzDx format.

I am concerned about the size of the XYZ color space, the complexity of non-fixed gamut mapping (which is something that even professional video equipment can't do), the inability to make a reference display for it (you can make a reference display for part of it but not for all of it), and that the major studios might just want it added to 4K Blu-ray for marketing reasons. The use of chroma subsampling would lower the decoder cost though chroma subsampling is a mixed bag of positives and negatives.

[pentatonic]

Originally Posted by Richard Paul

I just find it a bit fishy that the movie studios are suddenly wanting support for the XYZ color space but that they aren't trying to improve the projector color space that is required by the DCI specification. If they were trying to do both I wouldn't be suspicious but the current proposal might just be a way for the movie studios to claim they are delivering something better than UHDTV while delivering something inferior.


I am concerned about the size of the XYZ color space, the complexity of non-fixed gamut mapping (which is something that even professional video equipment can't do), the inability to make a reference display for it (you can make a reference display for part of it but not for all of it), and that the major studios might just want it added to 4K Blu-ray for marketing reasons. The use of chroma subsampling would lower the decoder cost though chroma subsampling is a mixed bag of positives and negatives.

Hi Sir Richard Of Paul (great name)

While I agree, my view on this one is different than what it would have been years ago. We already know that if we are locked in with a standard that is relatively easy to attain today, this standard will very shortly limit us as panel technology is frantically changing at the present. Let's say Oled becomes a viable, durable panel tech within 4 years, or just replaced by something else even better, wouldn't be ideal to have an adaptive standard that would also permit to evolve to an even better potential. I mean, just about every tech gadget today is driven by dual to quad core cpus, and the final merger of all of our entertainment hardware is near. It will soon be totally ridiculous to have an AVR (with cpu), a BD player (with cpu) etc. That is just redundant and expensive for no good reason. But software will only be more prevalent in our tech future, hence as long as you have the cpu power, adapting becomes less of a concern, and with software upgrades rolling with times, also less prone to be left back too soon.

I mean, if I could just buy a 70" real monitor only driven by my cable box, etc and forget all the goodies that show up on every other gadgets in my HT, then changing a "cheaper" panel becomes like changing computer Monitors.

Surprisingly, that concept is shared by many, as convergence is the only way our entertainment will evolve. But at the same time, the most avid fans (like here) don't yet seem ready to move on.

I for one would love 4K, but it will have to wait a few gens before I'm in, until an adaptive format exists and we know that our precious new Panel possibly has at least a 10 years life expectancy, but I fear that like in the PC/Laptop/tablet/mobile, we have to expect fast paced changes, i.e. last year's Android not being able to support 4.4.

EDIT: Just a little perfect example. All on here are BD fans first and foremost, hence demand the best AQ and PQ. Now, go back to 2006. In that number of early adopters, how many are still using there 1st gen player? Only the PS3 crowd as far as I know. Was it the perfect player for everyone? No, but it's useful life, well is still useful compared to the huge paperweights. Maybe this time XBone and PS4 might not have the same impact, but if they built in enough horses, there 's another bunch that might not become obsolete so freakin fast. It's obvious CE like to push to market extremely fast, we now have the Chinese starting to push back, but why lock ourselves in just for the sake of a "possible" faster and easier standard.

EDIT 2: Also, defining a higher standard will only force the CEs to innovate, as the manner in which the CE decides to "process" those higher standards would actually not even be important, but I can see it now, like in PC Monitors who advertise 100% RGB, 79% Adobe RBG, etc. Hey, as a user you pays for what level you want and how that CE delivers it is up to them. Watch panel tech go in SuperOverdrive than

Side Note: I am obviously not aware technically on how to do this, but that is my view of a tech future I would love.

[Richard Paul]

Originally Posted by pentatonic

While I agree, my view on this one is different than what it would have been years ago. We already know that if we are locked in with a standard that is relatively easy to attain today, this standard will very shortly limit us as panel technology is frantically changing at the present. Let's say Oled becomes a viable, durable panel tech within 4 years, or just replaced by something else even better, wouldn't be ideal to have an adaptive standard that would also permit to evolve to an even better potential.

Video quality is important which is why I am hoping that 4K Blu-ray supports the Rec. 2020 color space. It is something that can be achieved with RGB laser projectors and that LCD and OLED can get close to.

Originally Posted by pentatonic

EDIT 2: Also, defining a higher standard will only force the CEs to innovate, as the manner in which the CE decides to "process" those higher standards would actually not even be important, but I can see it now, like in PC Monitors who advertise 100% RGB, 79% Adobe RBG, etc. Hey, as a user you pays for what level you want and how that CE delivers it is up to them. Watch panel tech go in SuperOverdrive than

It is possible that the major studios are going to announce a new DCI specification later this year that will require an advanced multispectral laser projector but my guess is that the XYZ color space for consumer video is a marketing plan. The major studios will advertise that the XYZ color space is superior to the Rec. 2020 color space (which it has the potential to be) and than they can release movies using the XYZ color space but only use the DCI P3 color gamut (which is allowed in the MovieLabs proposal). That would allow the major studios to convince the average person that movies are superior to UHDTV without the major studios having to upgrade their equipment or even a single digital movie theater.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Steedeel

Yep, It aches how much I miss my little buddy. I'm sure you feel the same way as I, blessed to have had them in our lives.
Penton Man, I will try to post a pic of my dog at some point. I have many pictures of him.

Sweet comments about your pet by the way.

Although always a ‘big dog’ lover, the little fella stole my heart as I never knew a dog quite like him….exceptional intelligence, loyalty, as well as being as my wife and our friends and neighbors would describe it - “he is one handsome dude”.

Every year on our trek to the Tech retreat (http://www.tvtechnology.com/exhibiti...-normal/223531) our Pom was the hit of ‘Palm’ Desert and the adjacent ‘Palm’ Springs where we would hang out for a day or so with friends after the event.

Leaving momentarily after having had a fine lunch to fill us up for our road trip. At least I’m now off crutches.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Steedeel

Penton Man, I will try to post a pic of my dog at some point. I have many pictures of him.

Please do. I'll try to get a recent pic of at least one of my coyotes, if not most of the family at-large.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Richard Paul

I just find it a bit fishy that the movie studios are suddenly wanting support for the XYZ color space...

Well Richard, I wouldn’t exactly call the interest in XYZ refinements and implementations sudden, as I mentioned somewhere on this thread back in Sept. or Oct. that collaborative discussion has been underway and in formal progress for several months now…. https://kws.smpte.org/kws/public/pro...project_id=200

As well as there being important adjunctive working group projects….https://kws.smpte.org/kws/public/pro...project_id=199 , https://kws.smpte.org/kws/public/pro...project_id=197

formed to address the concept of truly immersive image formats for next-gen TV systems.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

No matter any other sporting results, I will consider the winter Olympics to be a success if Russia doesn’t win gold in men’s hockey….a grand success if they don’t medal at all in men’s hockey for I am not a fan of Putin....

Gotta go now. I leave ya’ll for a week in the desert sun with this thought from the ‘winter’ Olympics, which I hope turns out to be a premonition of things to come….
http://www.nbcnews.com/watch/nightly...e-154402371815

[Richard Paul]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Well Richard, I wouldn’t exactly call the interest in XYZ refinements and implementations sudden, as I mentioned somewhere on this thread back in Sept. or Oct. that collaborative discussion has been underway and in formal progress for several months now…. https://kws.smpte.org/kws/public/pro...project_id=200

Just to clarify I mean sudden in the context of the UHDTV standard which was developed over the course of several years and was released as an ITU standard in 2012. For example it wasn't until the HEVC meeting in October 2013 that the XYZ color space was proposed and it was only added to HEVC at last month's meeting.

[lillsowi]

Excitingly enough, James Cameron has just stated that he's shooting the Avatar sequels in 4K and HFR, really bringing Weta to their knees

Since the first Avatar launched 3D, maybe this will provide a much needed launch for 4K and HFR, in the home.

[Geoff D]

Shooting in 4K (or higher) is not the same as finishing in 4K. Though if anyone can bring a 4K HFR movie to theaters, it's good ol' JC.

[Kris Deering]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Shooting in 4K (or higher) is not the same as finishing in 4K. Though if anyone can bring a 4K HFR movie to theaters, it's good ol' JC.

Agreed. Will be interesting to see what the special effects are finished at and what the final DI is. Even the Hobbit was filmed in 4K, but we see what that amounted to.

[Teazle]

Saw Robocop ('14) in an Imax theatre, sat right in middle, & thought it lacked detail for a 4K movie.

Then I read on imdb that it was 2K DI (tho' shot w/ RED cam). Presumably this means all the CGI & everything except principal camerawork was generated at only 2K.

WTF studios?!

A sci-fi movie w/ a budget > $100M at a piddling 2K?!

Show me the 4K content!

[Geoff D]

And the penny drops. 2K DI's are still the main 'finish' of choice for movies these days, unless it happens to be a Sony flick. Heck, Avengers cost $220m and it wasn't even shot on a 4K camera. (Though the Alexa does deliver lovely images regardless, which didn't trouble Sony when they uprezzed their Alexa footage for Skyfall's 4K DI.)