The Criterion Collection

[DimitriL]

So I just got my copy of Spinal Tap. I haven’t watched it yet, but I was just thinking about the ongoing debate about how “Criterion doesn’t try like it used to” and what not. I still have my original Criterion DVD of Spinal Tap, and the comparison is instructive. The new edition has a beautifully done booklet that looks like an 80s fanzine. I cracked open the old DVD and…it’s basically a one page insert with a smidge of an essay (which I’m pretty sure was ported over from the old LD’s back cover). It’s a hell of a design upgrade.

[Juan de Internet]

Originally Posted by queen_kitty

Romances set in gorgeous locations are almost always a winner for me! Only bad part is that it will most likely release just after the B&N 50% off sale is over.

I feel that keenly. I’m still waiting what will be six months to pick up Chungking Express (and even longer for Paris, Texas) because I got a Criterion GC in April and I want to max out what I can get at a Flash Sale. Not sure I can wait four months for I Know Where I’m Going!

Then again, it took them four years to release this on disc after it was restored.

BTW, Film Foundation and Lucas were behind Shoeshine as well in 2023. I wonder if there is a list of their recent restorations that gives a hint of upcoming Criterion releases now that they seem to be getting out some of their backlog.

[darrellmaclaine]

Originally Posted by DimitriL

So I just got my copy of Spinal Tap. I haven’t watched it yet, but I was just thinking about the ongoing debate about how “Criterion doesn’t try like it used to” and what not. I still have my original Criterion DVD of Spinal Tap, and the comparison is instructive. The new edition has a beautifully done booklet that looks like an 80s fanzine. I cracked open the old DVD and…it’s basically a one page insert with a smidge of an essay (which I’m pretty sure was ported over from the old LD’s back cover). It’s a hell of a design upgrade.

The packaging looks like the best thing about it by far. My main concerns with the release are the lack of any previously unreleased archive material - and indeed the omissions from and editing down of some of what's there. The disc itself seems very thrown together in a hurry, and what's worst is that the new master of the film it's built upon looks pretty awful - much too dark and weirdly yellow. It's a shame they never had got to have a go at it 10 years ago.

[DimitriL]

Originally Posted by darrellmaclaine

The packaging looks like the best thing about it by far. My main concerns with the release are the lack of any previously unreleased archive material - and indeed the omissions from and editing down of some of what's there. The disc itself seems very thrown together in a hurry, and what's worst is that the new master of the film it's built upon looks pretty awful - much too dark and weirdly yellow. It's a shame they never had got to have a go at it 10 years ago.

If it’s any consolation, the other forum of interest to Criterion fans gave the image a glowing review, noting just a smidge of a greenish-tint that they thought made it seem more like celluloid. (They also note most of the archival material appears newly scanned, which indicates some measure of substantial effort.) They can be fairly lacerating over there, so thought that was notable.

[darrellmaclaine]

Originally Posted by DimitriL

If it’s any consolation, the other forum of interest to Criterion fans gave the image a glowing review, noting just a smidge of a greenish-tint that they thought made it seem more like celluloid. (They also note most of the archival material appears newly scanned, which indicates some measure of substantial effort.) They can be fairly lacerating over there, so thought that was notable.

That's good about the rescanned extras (presumably the outtakes and The Final Tour) but I've seen enough of the new master to pass judgement on how bad it looks. I still don't know who did it (it's not Criterion's master, it was commissioned by Spinal Tap LLC) but I'd be surprised if it wasn't Ritrovata as it has that same, shot-through-a-tank-of-urine look as makes the current master of The Producers look equally unwatchable. When someone puts some caps up it should show how radically different (and radically worse) it now looks.

[MifuneFan]

Originally Posted by darrellmaclaine

That's good about the rescanned extras (presumably the outtakes and The Final Tour) but I've seen enough of the new master to pass judgement on how bad it looks. I still don't know who did it but I'd be surprised if it wasn't Ritrovata as it has that same, shot-through-a-tank-of-urine look as makes the current master of The Producers look equally unwatchable. When someone puts some caps up it should show how radically different (and radically worse) it now looks.

So, I take it, you don't actually have the disc?

[yoloswegmaster420]

The restoration for This is Spinal Tap doesn't look anything like a Ritrovata grade. I don't know how anyone can look at this screenshot and think that Ritrovata were behind the colour grade:



Criterion were also behind the restoration per their transfer notes.

[darrellmaclaine]

Originally Posted by yoloswegmaster420

The restoration for This is Spinal Tap doesn't look anything like a Ritrovata grade. I don't know how anyone can look at this screenshot and think that Ritrovata were behind the colour grade:

Yep, that grab shows everything wrong with it. It has never had that dark, seasick look before - and there is colour reference VT for the Flower People section to compare other transfers against. Hopefully some cap comparisons will show up online to measure the significant changes against.

Originally Posted by yoloswegmaster420

Criterion were also behind the restoration per their transfer notes.

That's a surprise as this is the same master that was released theatrically and is currently available digitally, so it must have been a mutual deal between the two parties to provide a new master for Tap LLC in addition to video rights for Janus. I do not understand the thought process behind the re-grade whatsoever, it looks awful.

Originally Posted by MifuneFan

So, I take it, you don't actually have the disc?

Here he is, off his meds again. I have this new master digitally via Amazon, so if you are gearing up for the same heehawing at me as you seem to prone to, go ahead, you seem to feel a frequent need to.

[MifuneFan]

Originally Posted by darrellmaclaine

Yep, that grab shows everything wrong with it. It has never had that dark, seasick look before - and there is colour reference VT for the Flower People section to compare other transfers against. Hopefully some cap comparisons will show up online to measure the significant changes against.



That's a surprise as this is the same master that was released theatrically and is currently available digitally, so it must have been a mutual deal between the two parties to provide a new master for Tap LLC in addition to video rights for Janus. I do not understand the thought process behind the re-grade whatsoever, it looks awful.



Here he is, off his meds again. I have this new master digitally via Amazon, so if you are gearing up for the same heehawing at me as you seem to prone to, go ahead, you seem to feel a frequent need to.

I asked a simple yes or no question. You don't have the Criterion 4K disc, got it. Why you feel the need to go to personal attacks is beyond me, but you do you, I guess.

[darrellmaclaine]

Originally Posted by MifuneFan

I asked a simple yes or no question. You don't have the Criterion 4K disc, got it. Why you feel the need to go to personal attacks is beyond me, but you do you, I guess.

Bit late to be disingenuous. You always do this, and it's not just to me - get needlessly confrontational and start policing.

[MifuneFan]

Here are some behind the scenes for the excellent cover art for I Know Where I'm Going! by Vietnamese artist Thinh Dinh. This is his first Criterion commission, and he knocked it out of the park. I actually thought it was from Greg Ruth when it was first announced, as it's reminiscent of his illustration work.

https://www.instagram.com/p/DOqmwfikub4/?img_index=1

Beyond happy to share my very first Criterion cover for the British classic by Powell and Pressburger, 'I Know Where I'm Going!'. A movie about... not knowing where you're going. Yes, but that's not a bad thing at all. In the film, Joan sets out to travel and marry her wealthy fiancé, however, raging storms sweep away all of her plans and leave her stuck on an island where she encounters Torquil, a fellow traveller.

It's an enchanting romance set against the mystical landscape of Scottish islands with a story that shows the uncontrollable forces of life and the conflict between the head and the heart. Watching it makes me see how magical cinema can be.

Thank you to @ericskillman for this wondeful assignment!

[darrellmaclaine]

Put it this way, I don't know how anybody can look at any of the 3 previous disc releases of Tap - Criterion DVD, MGM DVD and StudioCanal Blu-ray, all of which have slight variances and their own subtle colour biases (Criterion DVD had a slight saturation push, MGM a slight blue push, and Canal a slight magenta push) but clearly average out between them to consistently represent what the film looks like - this is three different scans graded by three different people at three different times to three different preferences, and they are still all broadly the same look:

http://www.dvdbeaver.com/film/dvdcom...sspinaltap.htm

...to the screengrabs of the new 2025 master (same one that was rereleased theatrically and is available digitally) which is clearly and transformationally different in gamma levels and colour timing, pushes heavily towards yellow and green in a way it hasn't before, and is now so dark you couldn't watch it without the curtains drawn, as if the whole thing were a day-for-night scene. This might be to some tastes and personal preference is personal preference, but this is so clearly NOT what This Is Spinal Tap looked like at any previous point in history.

https://www.criterionforum.org/Revie...d-plus-blu-ray

[DimitriL]

Originally Posted by darrellmaclaine

...to the screengrabs of the new 2025 master (same one that was rereleased theatrically and is available digitally) which is clearly and transformationally different in gamma levels and colour timing, pushes heavily towards yellow and green in a way it hasn't before, and is now so dark you couldn't watch it without the curtains drawn, as if the whole thing were a day-for-night scene. This might be to some tastes and personal preference is personal preference, but this is so clearly NOT what This Is Spinal Tap looked like at any previous point in history.

Okay, so I just got finished watching the 4k and - with respect - I can’t understand how you came to any of these conclusions. It doesn’t matter what it looked like compared to other video masters. Video masters - and we saw this with the Three Color Trilogy - can be broadly consistent yet dramatically wrong for decades. Unless you’ve got the print, you don’t know what it looked like compared to a print. (And you can’t judge color renditions from a memory of sitting in a theater.) I certainly saw no particular, consistent push in any direction - flesh tones are sterling, color renditions pop, grain reproduction is stunning. Exteriors are slightly more warm, interiors are generally slightly more cool. It looks beautifully filmic, it looks like 35mm blown up from 16 mm. A little darker but not terribly so.

In fact, you know what it looks like now? Every other concert film/documentary from the 70s/early 80s. Which is what it’s SUPPOSED to look like. It looks like The Last Waltz. It looks like The Song Remains the Same. If it’s not slightly dark, then it’s even a little bit authentic, because that’s the visual signature of film crews on 16mm stock and ersatz, documentary lighting arrangements.

Anyway, your mileage may vary, of course. But I thought it was absolutely choice.

[DimitriL]

(And one other thing - why would anyone judge anything based on an Amazon source? I’ve got the - I think glorious - Kino To Live and Die in LA. Out of curiosity, I watched the Amazon version after they updated to that newer master and it looks like p00p compared to the Kino. Lurid. Flesh tones look orange. I mean, disgracefully different. Please people, don’t use these sources as a judge for anything. There are a million things that can affect the rendering pipeline, from compression to bitrate to your service provider to how your box renders video. Use a disc. Dune looks anemic and mis-timed compared to the 4k disc, and the nighttime sandworm shots are almost impossible to make out on streaming and download, where on the disc they’re dark but delineated. Please, folks. Isn’t this a big part of why we do physical media in the first place? Because digitally acquired files are an inferior substitute?)

[darrellmaclaine]

Take this shot as an example:



What actually is happening in this image? Harsh stage spotlights are backlighting McKean's head and hair, yet the new grade there is making even the hottest of artificial lights look dim and murky rather than a brightly highlighted halo. It makes no photographic sense.



And look at this rostrum shot - no setup like this was ever shot at these light levels. Here's what it looked like on the previous master:



There are some things that go beyond an individual colourist's preference and into an area where something is clearly not right, and the new Tap master is clearly not right.

[DimitriL]

Originally Posted by darrellmaclaine

There are some things that go beyond an individual colourist's preference and into an area where something is clearly not right, and the new Tap master is clearly not right.

Okay, I'm very glad you posted this because now I know your source is grievously, horribly, completely inaccurate. I shot this on my screen on my phone, with a quick color correction so it was more or less what I was seeing, a little glare on the screen so a tad brighter but roughly correct. (I won't testify to the colors.) There's something wrong with your source or your setup. Badly wrong. (Having edited a lot of videos, I'd say your HDR rendering is botched.)

[Gacivory]

Originally Posted by MifuneFan

Here are some behind the scenes for the excellent cover art for I Know Where I'm Going! by Vietnamese artist Thinh Dinh. This is his first Criterion commission, and he knocked it out of the park. I actually thought it was from Greg Ruth when it was first announced, as it's reminiscent of his illustration work.

[Show spoiler]

https://www.instagram.com/p/DOqmwfikub4/?img_index=1

Criterion better not lose his number or upset him and keep him in the art rotation!

[darrellmaclaine]

Originally Posted by DimitriL

Okay, I'm very glad you posted this because now I know your source is grievously, horribly, completely inaccurate. I shot this on my screen on my phone, with a quick color correction so it was more or less what I was seeing, a little glare on the screen so a tad brighter but roughly correct. (I won't testify to the colors.) There's something wrong with your source or your setup. Badly wrong. (Having edited a lot of videos, I'd say your HDR rendering is botched.)

These are the screenshots from the review on CriterionForum which also look like the version on Amazon digital which also look like all the official trailers and promo footage of this remaster. If there's a mapping issue it's a widespread one.

[Egbert Souse]

Don't screenshots from 4K HDR require some adjustment to look normal in SDR? I obviously keep HDR enabled on my setup, but I did try out settings once and found that Arrow's Deep Red 4K had very dark and desaturated reds with HDR disabled while they were vibrant with it turned back on. I was surprised how much difference it made.

[mikeainslie]

Originally Posted by Egbert Souse

Don't screenshots from 4K HDR require some adjustment to look normal in SDR? I obviously keep HDR enabled on my setup, but I did try out settings once and found that Arrow's Deep Red 4K had very dark and desaturated reds with HDR disabled while they were vibrant with it turned back on. I was surprised how much difference it made.

i think that is exactly what is going wrong here, i don't know if this master has the same color problems that the screenshots show on the sdr 1080p blu-ray. if anybody who has the film can let me know if the 1080p blu-ray looks like this, that would be most appreciated.