Is 4K a game changer?

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by JayEmm

If Joe Public had even a modicum of taste or knowledge when it came to TV picture quality, all these dynamic image modes would never have come into being. They're vile

As well as motion interpolation, for that matter.
Claudio (scroll down to comments), among others, stepped up to the plate for Reed….https://www.change.org/p/hdtv-manufa...g-on-all-hdtvs

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

As to Dave, for those unawares, he teaches classes at the Global Cinematography Institute and AFI. As to the Camera subcommittee itself which he Chairs, it has been supportive of the work of the ASC Advanced Imaging subcommittee in HDR image processing in conjunction with the ASC UHDTV subcommittee.....

So, some readers here, taking a moment to think, rather than respond to hype….. might ponder, what unbiased investigations do these consulting ASC subcommittees (consisting of active professionals volunteering their time) actually do…..benefits of which potentially can eventually find their way downstream to make for a better consumer next-gen experience?

Well, they do such things as shootouts or plugfests to determine the how’s, whys and wherefores of achieving the best picture quality amongst the contenders.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by JayEmm

Leicester Square....

Jay, with all the past ASC references, I won’t neglect mentioning the fine British Society of Cinematographers…. http://www.bscine.com/ <-which includes a Sicario Q&A with Roger Deakins on vimeo.

Also, if you’re looking forward to seeing some HDR on display, along of course with gadgets to help with 4K (and higher) acquisition, don’t forget the BSC Expo coming up at the end of the month….http://www.bscexpo.com/ . Last year, both Sony and Dolby had HDR demos running.

[richieb1971]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

As well as motion interpolation, for that matter.
Claudio (scroll down to comments), among others, stepped up to the plate for Reed….https://www.change.org/p/hdtv-manufa...g-on-all-hdtvs

When factories make TV's they should make them to a standard and abide to it. I understand a brightness and contrast control but everything else should be calibrated and there should be no user controls to change it.

[dvdmike]

Originally Posted by JayEmm

If you're at the stage where you can see individual pixels, obviously there is an issue. At the moment I struggle to find garden variety cinemas doing a half decent job of projection - let alone pristine ones doing 4k, but that's what makes it a treat when we do see it.

On the subject of Netflix I heard about it through a few industry friends. I haven't read that book but For tech fiends John Galt of Panavision did a very interesting lecture called "demystifying digital camera specifications" a number of years ago - at the time comparing the 1080p Panavision Genesis to the then new "4k" red one.

I miss the genesis

[JayEmm]

Originally Posted by dvdmike

I miss the genesis

Would you believe me if I told you as of last year some of them were still out there, working?

[dvdmike]

Originally Posted by JayEmm

Would you believe me if I told you as of last year some of them were still out there, working?

Got I loved that camera, Newton Thomas Sigel shot the ever loving shit out of that thing

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by JayEmm

Would you believe me if I told you as of last year some of them were still out there, working?

The Genesis definitely had problems in its formative years, for instance….

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Superman Returns isn’t the greatest example to use as to the worthiness of the Genesis camera as it was shot during the early life of that camera and truth be told, the original cameras had some sensor errors (which have since been rectified) which manifested themselves with some artifacts but, not the video pre-processing manipulation artifacts that Jeff has accurately described.

[Geoff D]

That's right, wasn't there a line down the image that had to be painted out on SR? Given how ultra-brown the movie looked after they'd graded it I don't think it's just the Alexa that has the monopoly on 'dusty' looking flicks.

[JayEmm]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

That's right, wasn't there a line down the image that had to be painted out on SR? Given how ultra-brown the movie looked after they'd graded it I don't think it's just the Alexa that has the monopoly on 'dusty' looking flicks.

Vertical smear is a problem that can happen with any CCD imaging device. For whatever reason, the unique RGB stripe sensor used in the Genesis (and later F35) was very succeptible to it.

I only saw a vertical smear once or twice shooting two years with my Sony F900. The F35 would do it with very little provocation.

You can see examples of this smear in TRON Legacy, in the arcade scene.

[timcat4843]

I think a lot of folks are waiting for the TV networks, to begin broadcasting in
4K, before they invest in a 4K set.
I would buy a 4K/3D projector today, if I could watch football and basketball
games in 4K.
4K totally blows away 2K.
The difference is like night and day.

[danman227460]

Weren't people waiting for 3D broadcasts also?

I see 4K as another gimmick. It won't fly because of the investment you have to make in the format. Get a new TV and a media player.

The general population is already having a hard time moving to blu-rays as evident with how prevalent DVDs are still around. When DVD came out, it took ten years to phase out VHS. It has been ten years now for blu-ray and yet DVDs are still around and with no sign of disappearing. They are still releasing shows in DVD only. You expect them to care about 4K?

There is also the idea that you won't see the difference if you don't sit close enough. Unless you can afford the bigger size or sit closer, you won't see any difference in TV resolutions.

Am I going to get a 4K set? Maybe if I need to replace my current set and its better than other models. Will I buy media to watch on the set? No. I have a sizable collection in blu-rays. I am not going to reinvest in them.

4K will fly under the radar like 3D did with the very informed and pocket deep customers buying into it. But once 8K comes out, 4K will fade. Then 8K will fade when 16K hits. Endless cycle.

I am sticking with blu-rays until the quality jumps significantly.

Originally Posted by timcat4843

I think a lot of folks are waiting for the TV networks, to begin broadcasting in
4K, before they invest in a 4K set.
I would buy a 4K/3D projector today, if I could watch football and basketball
games in 4K.
4K totally blows away 2K.
The difference is like night and day.

[ray0414]

Originally Posted by danman227460

Weren't people waiting for 3D broadcasts also?

I see 4K as another gimmick. It won't fly because of the investment you have to make in the format. Get a new TV and a media player.

The general population is already having a hard time moving to blu-rays as evident with how prevalent DVDs are still around. When DVD came out, it took ten years to phase out VHS. It has been ten years now for blu-ray and yet DVDs are still around and with no sign of disappearing. They are still releasing shows in DVD only. You expect them to care about 4K?

There is also the idea that you won't see the difference if you don't sit close enough. Unless you can afford the bigger size or sit closer, you won't see any difference in TV resolutions.

Am I going to get a 4K set? Maybe if I need to replace my current set and its better than other models. Will I buy media to watch on the set? No. I have a sizable collection in blu-rays. I am not going to reinvest in them.

4K will fly under the radar like 3D did with the very informed and pocket deep customers buying into it. But once 8K comes out, 4K will fade. Then 8K will fade when 16K hits. Endless cycle.

I am sticking with blu-rays until the quality jumps significantly.

apparently your not following CES this year.

4k is marginal, but the addition of HDR is seen at all sizes at any distance.

4k players launch next month, fox has already announced 100 titles for this year alone. could have 200-300 for the launch year which would be super impressive.

[MakeMineHD]

4K! A fancy menu! A booklet! A black case! One free Blu-Ray and one free HD Digital copy!

Oh, don't forget to buy a new TV. Oh, a new player. Might need some new Ultra HDMI cables...

They will look amazing for a month or two then you will adjust and suddenly your Blu-Ray will look rubbish, they won't be rubbish, but they will appear that way to your reprogramed brain.

Soon the real world will begin to look blurry.

There is always a point where anything more is overkill. 20/20 vision will have to be changed to 40/40... makes sense.

[danman227460]

Until they release all 200-300 titles, I'll hold onto that. We all know delays happen and if the sales aren't moving on the titles, will they keep releasing them? Major difference between announced and released. I can announce 1000 titles and release 50.

On 4K players, what are we looking at? 200-300? Throw in the new HDMI cable because old ones can't carry the 4K content. Add in the receiver I must also upgrade to get 4K. I am looking at a massive upgrade bill.

I am just pointing out that beyond the people with deep pockets and who are very well informed like people who frequent these forums, most people will glance at 4K and pass on it. To them, they don't have all the right tools to enjoy 4K so it will look like blu-ray to them.

I can bet that most people who buy 3D tvs don't own many titles or even care about the 3D once it passes the new and shiny stage. It is the dedicated and knowledgeable that stick with it. This will happen to the 4K media because we already know 8K is out there.

It just going to be hard to sell people on the idea of 4K when I still have friends who buy DVD over Blu-ray because it is cheaper and they have DVD players everywhere so it is much easier to transport. I shake my head at them and tell them it isn't the same but to them, it doesn't matter.

How many of these people are out there who will feel the same about 4K?

I can also see people buying 4K sets, plugging in their DVD player and complaining about the image. Well sir, you need the 4K player here and HDMI cable here. That will be 400 extra.

Originally Posted by ray0414

apparently your not following CES this year.

4k is marginal, but the addition of HDR is seen at all sizes at any distance.

4k players launch next month, fox has already announced 100 titles for this year alone. could have 200-300 for the launch year which would be super impressive.

[Frank@Chicago]

This has me thinking back to previous video format launches...

For DVD, I mostly remember the early Warner flippers with the fold-out chapter titles.

Wonder whatever happened to chapter titles (and the guy whose job it was to write them).

For HD-DVD, I remember the Universal discs with no boot menu (even though DVD had those in spades).

For Blue, I mostly remember the single-layer Sony discs and everyone's disappointment that extras were cut.

As for UHD, I'd be amazed if they launched with even 25 titles.

[ray0414]

Originally Posted by danman227460

Until they release all 200-300 titles, I'll hold onto that. We all know delays happen and if the sales aren't moving on the titles, will they keep releasing them? Major difference between announced and released. I can announce 1000 titles and release 50.

On 4K players, what are we looking at? 200-300? Throw in the new HDMI cable because old ones can't carry the 4K content. Add in the receiver I must also upgrade to get 4K. I am looking at a massive upgrade bill.

I am just pointing out that beyond the people with deep pockets and who are very well informed like people who frequent these forums, most people will glance at 4K and pass on it. To them, they don't have all the right tools to enjoy 4K so it will look like blu-ray to them.

I can bet that most people who buy 3D tvs don't own many titles or even care about the 3D once it passes the new and shiny stage. It is the dedicated and knowledgeable that stick with it. This will happen to the 4K media because we already know 8K is out there.

It just going to be hard to sell people on the idea of 4K when I still have friends who buy DVD over Blu-ray because it is cheaper and they have DVD players everywhere so it is much easier to transport. I shake my head at them and tell them it isn't the same but to them, it doesn't matter.

How many of these people are out there who will feel the same about 4K?

I can also see people buying 4K sets, plugging in their DVD player and complaining about the image. Well sir, you need the 4K player here and HDMI cable here. That will be 400 extra.

Any high speed cables work. and no need to buy a new AVR, the new UHD players have dual HDMI ports, 1 made for audio.

its definitely an improvement and it looks 10x better. but the question is will the average person care, it depends on each person. all that matters is will YOU care? knowledge about 4k is growing, but almost nobody knows what HDR is, and HDR is where its really at.

if anybody is going to buy a 4k set, they should probably learn what 4k is. the good thing, starting in late february when someone goes into best buy to buy a 4k tv, they will have 4k players for demo showing the improvements. that should help get the word out a little bit.

But i would never advise someone who has money issues to take up the expensive habit. make sure your bills are paid and theres food on the table.

[tvine2000]

Originally Posted by danman227460

Weren't people waiting for 3D broadcasts also?

I see 4K as another gimmick. It won't fly because of the investment you have to make in the format. Get a new TV and a media player.

The general population is already having a hard time moving to blu-rays as evident with how prevalent DVDs are still around. When DVD came out, it took ten years to phase out VHS. It has been ten years now for blu-ray and yet DVDs are still around and with no sign of disappearing. They are still releasing shows in DVD only. You expect them to care about 4K?

There is also the idea that you won't see the difference if you don't sit close enough. Unless you can afford the bigger size or sit closer, you won't see any difference in TV resolutions.

Am I going to get a 4K set? Maybe if I need to replace my current set and its better than other models. Will I buy media to watch on the set? No. I have a sizable collection in blu-rays. I am not going to reinvest in them.

4K will fly under the radar like 3D did with the very informed and pocket deep customers buying into it. But once 8K comes out, 4K will fade. Then 8K will fade when 16K hits. Endless cycle.

I am sticking with blu-rays until the quality jumps significantly.

We heard these concerns before when HDTV and BLU-RAY was released. And when HDTV went from 720p to 1080p. Everything you said was what was said in the past , yet here we are and people bought into HDTV and Blu-ray. So in time they will with 4K, 8k and any other ''K'. The doomsayer always perk up every time a new format comes out. I wonder when you guys will ever learn??

[tvine2000]

Originally Posted by danman227460

Weren't people waiting for 3D broadcasts also?

I see 4K as another gimmick. It won't fly because of the investment you have to make in the format. Get a new TV and a media player.

The general population is already having a hard time moving to blu-rays as evident with how prevalent DVDs are still around. When DVD came out, it took ten years to phase out VHS. It has been ten years now for blu-ray and yet DVDs are still around and with no sign of disappearing. They are still releasing shows in DVD only. You expect them to care about 4K?

There is also the idea that you won't see the difference if you don't sit close enough. Unless you can afford the bigger size or sit closer, you won't see any difference in TV resolutions.

Am I going to get a 4K set? Maybe if I need to replace my current set and its better than other models. Will I buy media to watch on the set? No. I have a sizable collection in blu-rays. I am not going to reinvest in them.

4K will fly under the radar like 3D did with the very informed and pocket deep customers buying into it. But once 8K comes out, 4K will fade. Then 8K will fade when 16K hits. Endless cycle.

I am sticking with blu-rays until the quality jumps significantly.

A quick note.Looking at 4K titles I don't see DVD in the combo packs. Maybe the studio's are slowly getting rid of them. If I remember correctly ,once they stopped VHS , people had to get into DVD.

[spectre08]

Originally Posted by tvine2000

A quick note.Looking at 4K titles I don't see DVD in the combo packs. Maybe the studio's are slowly getting rid of them. If I remember correctly ,once they stopped VHS , people had to get into DVD.

I think it's more a practical space concern than any effort to kill DVD.

The switch from VHS to DVD was completely different. VHS cassettes were considerably more expensive to produce than DVDs, so it was financially prudent to stop making them.

But DVDs are cheap to produce, I mean cheeeep, on the order of pennies per disk.

Blu-rays are actually more expensive than DVDs to produce, so it makes financial sense for companies to continue to produce DVDs, because they can remain profitable.

DVD and blu-ray aren't going anywhere. We just have a richer product mix now with UHD added to the mix.