4K Blu-ray Confirmed, Coming in

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by PeterTHX

[citation needed]


You know there's are things called cable TV & satellite that people watch on their TVs, and quite often it's HD, especially stuff like sports.


Last time I looked XBOX 360/ONE and PS3/4 had 1080p output. Are you going to tell me nobody plays video games on their HD or UHD TVs?


What country do people buy these sets and only watch DVDs?

exactly. Millions of bluray players in homes, netflix only needs around 3mbps to display 720p, games, bbc iplayer is now 1080p, now tv, Sky tv have many many HD channels which my parents watch etc.. The list goes on.

[bruceames]

I'd like to see some data, but at this point I'd say that at least half the content people see on their HDTVs is 720p or better.

[Richard Paul]

Originally Posted by Lentulus Batiatus

People are not buying 4K TVs not because there will be 4K BD in the future. They are buying them to watch SD content. They will boast ti their friends how awesome their new 4K TV looks while showing off Guardians of the Galaxy on DVD. Just like in the past people boasted about their X lines of resolution while showing off their huge SD TV running 4:3 VHS through a coax cable. Good thing those people with 500 lines were buying laserdiscs to show it all off!

Sales of 4K TVs means NOTHING in support of 4K BD and does NOTHING to support BD in general.

Nothing? There is a correlation between a person owning an HDTV and wanting HD content. That is why the US market went from a few broadcast HDTV channels in the late 1990's to dozens of HDTV channels, a HD video format, HD video game consoles, and HD streaming services. It may not be 1 to 1 but if it meant nothing than HDTV would have failed.

Originally Posted by Lentulus Batiatus

4K TVs could make up 90% of TV sales as 1080p TVs do now but while studios continue to support stand alone DVD the content being displayed will not even be HD, let alone 4K. Less than 1% of 1%.

Last year Blu-ray passed 20% unit sales for physical discs. I think 4K Blu-ray could do well if the specs are good.

[Lentulus Batiatus]

Originally Posted by Richard Paul

Nothing? There is a correlation between a person owning an HDTV and wanting HD content. That is why the US market went from a few broadcast HDTV channels in the late 1990's to dozens of HDTV channels, a HD video format, HD video game consoles, and HD streaming services. It may not be 1 to 1 but if it meant nothing than HDTV would have failed.


Last year Blu-ray passed 20% unit sales for physical discs. I think 4K Blu-ray could do well if the specs are good.

Blu-ray is 20% of physical sales. 20%. Twenty. After 8 years. Why do you guys keep arguing against what I write and then bring up these facts as your evidence. TWENTY PERCENT.

Having HD provided by calbe, satalite or Netflix doesn't mean that's what people are watching. My dad has 100 HD channels and still watches "Marked for Death" on an SD broadcast. He's got access to thousands of Blu-rays but still watches crappy versions on TV. He won't even use the PVR function on his cable box to pause a golf tournament for 5 minutes and skip the next commercials to get up and help my mom with something. And he's FAR from a technophobe.

If Blu-ray makes up 20% of sales and there's people like me and I presume a number of you buying hundreds of discs a year then your stat is a perfect example of the 1% of 1%. If 20% sold is by 10% of the buyers just how many of those buyers are going to upgrade to 4K? .01% Most likely.

And again, how many 4K sets are sold to people who still buy DVD over BD? You keep trying to say people had HD options, and they do, but are they actually using those options? And if so, are they actually going to upgrade to 4K? 20% of the market is still niche. 4K won't get 1% of the total market in the first year. By year 8, when DVD is still king at well over 50%, where's 4K going to be?

Studios are dumb. General consumers are dumb. And it seems plenty of BD fans are just as dumb. $9.99 for just a DVD or a DVD + a BONUS HD Blu-ray? Dumb dumb dumb dumb dumb.

[Lentulus Batiatus]

Originally Posted by PeterTHX

[citation needed]


You know there are things called cable & satellite that people watch on their TVs, and quite often it's HD, especially stuff like sports.


Last time I looked XBOX 360/ONE and PS3/4 had 1080p output. Are you going to tell me nobody plays video games on their HD or UHD TVs?


What country do people buy these sets and only watch DVDs?

What country sells DVD's at 80% of the market? The same one where people are buying 4K TVs. You are telling me Joe 6-pack in Arkansas is coming home with his brand new 4K TV to watch a library of HD discs and streams? Then why do movie studios still pump out DVD's at a rate of 4:1?

America..... F-_K YEAH!

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by Lentulus Batiatus

Blu-ray is 20% of physical sales. 20%. Twenty. After 8 years. Why do you guys keep arguing against what I write and then bring up these facts as your evidence. TWENTY PERCENT.

Having HD provided by calbe, satalite or Netflix doesn't mean that's what people are watching. My dad has 100 HD channels and still watches "Marked for Death" on an SD broadcast. He's got access to thousands of Blu-rays but still watches crappy versions on TV. He won't even use the PVR function on his cable box to pause a golf tournament for 5 minutes and skip the next commercials to get up and help my mom with something. And he's FAR from a technophobe.

If Blu-ray makes up 20% of sales and there's people like me and I presume a number of you buying hundreds of discs a year then your stat is a perfect example of the 1% of 1%. If 20% sold is by 10% of the buyers just how many of those buyers are going to upgrade to 4K? .01% Most likely.

And again, how many 4K sets are sold to people who still buy DVD over BD? You keep trying to say people had HD options, and they do, but are they actually using those options? And if so, are they actually going to upgrade to 4K? 20% of the market is still niche. 4K won't get 1% of the total market in the first year. By year 8, when DVD is still king at well over 50%, where's 4K going to be?

Studios are dumb. General consumers are dumb. And it seems plenty of BD fans are just as dumb. $9.99 for just a DVD or a DVD + a BONUS HD Blu-ray? Dumb dumb dumb dumb dumb.

You can speculate all you like but short of visiting everyone's home you are just guessing. I know that my folks watch HD for a start. I know my sisters do because I have seen live football games when visiting. My friends do because we often watch the football with pizza, either at their home or mine. Even old people who used to watch SD despite having HD channels are probably watching HD by accident now as there are that many HD channels scattered about. Netflix switches to HD by default if bandwidth allows (and let's face it, most people have the bandwidth now. ) in my opinion, you just want to piss on 4k.

[Tech-UK]

Originally Posted by Lentulus Batiatus

Blu-ray is 20% of physical sales. 20%. Twenty. After 8 years. Why do you guys keep arguing against what I write and then bring up these facts as your evidence. TWENTY PERCENT.

Having HD provided by calbe, satalite or Netflix doesn't mean that's what people are watching. My dad has 100 HD channels and still watches "Marked for Death" on an SD broadcast. He's got access to thousands of Blu-rays but still watches crappy versions on TV. He won't even use the PVR function on his cable box to pause a golf tournament for 5 minutes and skip the next commercials to get up and help my mom with something. And he's FAR from a technophobe.

If Blu-ray makes up 20% of sales and there's people like me and I presume a number of you buying hundreds of discs a year then your stat is a perfect example of the 1% of 1%. If 20% sold is by 10% of the buyers just how many of those buyers are going to upgrade to 4K? .01% Most likely.

And again, how many 4K sets are sold to people who still buy DVD over BD? You keep trying to say people had HD options, and they do, but are they actually using those options? And if so, are they actually going to upgrade to 4K? 20% of the market is still niche. 4K won't get 1% of the total market in the first year. By year 8, when DVD is still king at well over 50%, where's 4K going to be?

Studios are dumb. General consumers are dumb. And it seems plenty of BD fans are just as dumb. $9.99 for just a DVD or a DVD + a BONUS HD Blu-ray? Dumb dumb dumb dumb dumb.

If you go off figures alone we would never move on.

Technology needs to be pushed, as long as the technology is available, people will buy it.

I don't know what your problem is. Why are you against 4K? Is it because you are scared that you will not be able to afford it? Doesn't mean others have to wait.

I won't be able to jump on to the 4K bandwagon for sometime, but that doesn't stop me from wanting it to come out. Its exciting and new!

[Blu-Dog]

Originally Posted by Tech-UK

If you go off figures alone we would never move on.

I can understand this point of view.

Originally Posted by Tech-UK

Technology needs to be pushed, as long as the technology is available, people will buy it.

If any particular technology has intrinsic value, it doesn't need to be "pushed" on people. In the current marketplace, nonsense add-ons are "pushed" without real value all the time.

Originally Posted by Tech-UK

I don't know what your problem is. Why are you against 4K? Is it because you are scared that you will not be able to afford it? Doesn't mean others have to wait.

Uh-oh. The elitist argument. The old "if YOU can't afford it, shut up and let successful people buy what is pushed on them" argument.

It did wonders for 3-D. Let's do it for everything. Maybe it will work next time.

Originally Posted by Tech-UK

I won't be able to jump on to the 4K bandwagon for sometime, but that doesn't stop me from wanting it to come out. Its exciting and new!

Sounds like ad copy for the industry. Always use words like Exciting! and New! and be sure to put the word Attention! (always mention the target audience, like K-Mart Shoppers or Allergy Sufferers or Sports Fans or whoever you're targeting with clichés - we all know they will sit up straight and listen when you yell Attention!) and Introducing!

I can afford 4K. I actually own a 4K set. I didn't get it for 4K - that isn't being easily distributed yet, and won't be for years - but for the size of the thing. Here's a tip: if you want to promote the scheme, don't do it on the basis of price apprehension. You are asking for fanboy fanaticism to drive acceptance - and that simply doesn't work.

[Tech-UK]

'Pushed' is probably the wrong word to use, I should of used 'introduced'.

It is exciting and new, that's why we collect Blu-ray's or media in general because we enjoy it. 4K Blu-ray will begin that cycle again. I am not saying it in a marketing way, I am saying it from my point of view, that I AM excited about 4K Blu-ray, and so should others who like Blu-ray. Why else would I be posting on this forum.

What's wrong with saying "if you cannot afford it, don't moan", because that's life. I cannot afford 4K kit, but I am not trying to state why the technology shouldn't become available.

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by Blu-Dog

I can understand this point of view.




If any particular technology has intrinsic value, it doesn't need to be "pushed" on people. In the current marketplace, nonsense add-ons are "pushed" without real value all the time.



Uh-oh. The elitist argument. The old "if YOU can't afford it, shut up and let successful people buy what is pushed on them" argument.

It did wonders for 3-D. Let's do it for everything. Maybe it will work next time.



Sounds like ad copy for the industry. Always use words like Exciting! and New! and be sure to put the word Attention! (always mention the target audience, like K-Mart Shoppers or Allergy Sufferers or Sports Fans or whoever you're targeting with clichés - we all know they will sit up straight and listen when you yell Attention!) and Introducing!

I can afford 4K. I actually own a 4K set. I didn't get it for 4K - that isn't being easily distributed yet, and won't be for years - but for the size of the thing. Here's a tip: if you want to promote the scheme, don't do it on the basis of price apprehension. You are asking for fanboy fanaticism to drive acceptance - and that simply doesn't work.

Can't we get through a post without mentioning the demise of 3D?

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by Tech-UK

'Pushed' is probably the wrong word to use, I should of used 'introduced'.

It is exciting and new, that's why we collect Blu-ray's or media in general because we enjoy it. 4K Blu-ray will begin that cycle again. I am not saying it in a marketing way, I am saying it from my point of view, that I AM excited about 4K Blu-ray, and so should others who like Blu-ray. Why else would I be posting on this forum.

What's wrong with saying "if you cannot afford it, don't moan", because that's life. I cannot afford 4K kit, but I am not trying to state why the technology shouldn't become available.

You are absolutely spot on. Of course we should be excited. I was excited when I could rent videos from my local store and record live tv. I was excited when I could buy a film on a disc that offered great picture quality. I was even more excited watching Apocalypto in full HD on my new tv. Now, I am very much excited about 4k on a projector. That is progress, not some compressed, sharpened mess with dancing pixels that I can watch instantly!

I fully believe people will invent excuses if they can't afford 4k. Rather than telling the truth (excellent reason not to invest in 4k is if you can't feed your own family) they will make stupid arguments like I am tired of walking over to my display cabinet to pick a disc up. 'I'm jumping on streaming because it's the future and I get it free or next to free'! Or 'I don't notice the blocks and banding as I watch from my boat house with a set of binoculars'.
It's crap and you all know it's crap. It's jealousy and denial pure and simple. The masses are a weird lot. They will hunt around for hours to save a pound (or dollar) in a sale but blow a fortune on a night out and not be able to remember it the next day. We can't live our lives doing what everyone else does. If we did, quality wouldn't exist. Marketing will always be marketing. It's the way the world works. Sometimes we won't buy it sometimes we will. It's business and surely we are all grown up enough to realise that? Doesn't matter if it is shampoo that nourishes the roots more than the last brand of shampoo that nourished the roots or if it's 4k bluray. We all have the choice to buy or not to buy. It's not like we are all thinking ' those guys are so nice selling us this 4k television'. We know the motives behind marketing and profits and shareholders and business. If I am offered quality, I will wait a while, research and then make the jump. Same with music. Offer me HD audio and I will snap your hand off. Thank goodness quality still exists. Education is the key. Always has been for ignorance of anything.

[Richard Paul]

Originally Posted by Lentulus Batiatus

Blu-ray is 20% of physical sales. 20%. Twenty. After 8 years. Why do you guys keep arguing against what I write and then bring up these facts as your evidence. TWENTY PERCENT.

Which I don't see as a problem since generally adoption rates can take as while as seen with color TV, VCRs, and HDTV. Also Blu-ray is sold as a premium product compared to DVD which is why it generates over 30% of the sales revenue for physical discs.

[Wendell R. Breland]

Originally Posted by Tech-UK

Technology needs to be pushed, as long as the technology is available, people will buy it.

Some folks will argue against new technology, happened when electronics was introduced to music reproduction (vacuum tube vs. acoustic player). Seen it with transistors vs. vacuum tube, CD vs. vinyl, etc.

I have not heard Dolby Atmos, Auro or DTS MDA but I am in the process of researching and procuring hardware/software to take advantage of these technologies. Some folks I trust has heard these formats and think they add to the aural experience.

[Blu-Dog]

Originally Posted by Steedeel

Can't we get through a post without mentioning the demise of 3D?

I have a roll of duct tape around here somewhere...here, let me tear off a big piece and put on my fmph nnen I dntt ham tm tk mbt t mm more

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by Blu-Dog

I have a roll of duct tape around here somewhere...here, let me tear off a big piece and put on my fmph nnen I dntt ham tm tk mbt t mm more

3D is still the future my friend. Maybe next time!

[Blu-Dog]

Originally Posted by Steedeel

I fully believe people will invent excuses if they can't afford 4k. Rather than telling the truth (excellent reason not to invest in 4k is if you can't feed your own family) they will make stupid arguments like I am tired of walking over to my display cabinet to pick a disc up.

That's harsh...


Entertainment of any kind is not an "investment", it is a cost. Period. It's the same for any other non-essential cost; it is a choice.


Some costs are far out of proportion to real value. Currently, 4K is in that realm - and it may be a calendar year or more before that changes. It is not easily produced or distributed, and considering the mess that is the industry right now, it could stay that way for a while.

The problem with "excitement" is the fact that it is the only fuel running an economic engine that is running very roughly. While "excitement" does allow the user base to participate in the distribution process, it does not help standardize these formats, and works against real competition and usability.


Look at current issues:

• Dolby Atmos as an audio standard
• Atmos is in direct competition with DTS Auro
• HDCP 2.2 - required for the upcoming 4K standard, but not present on all but a handful of receivers
• These receivers are touting Atmos, but with only two height channels
• Auro is a "future upgrade"
• No 4K disc backwards compatibility is mentioned
• No 4K 3-D standard is mentioned at all, let alone backwards compatibility
• No color standard has been named - is it rec.2020, or 10 bit, or 12 bit, or what. It's anybody's guess, buy a television at your own risk (or be slammed with the "you're too poor to appreciate such things" label)

At the risk of putting on my duct tape again, I saw the same nonsense in 2010 with the last technical rollout. It also caused tremendous "excitement", which rapidly devolved into confusion, disgust, and contempt for the industry as a whole for promises not kept. Enthusiasm was what was generated, and it did nothing to reel in costs, establish an understandable standard, or gain widespread acceptance.


It's fine if you're excited. I was happy when I got my new 4K set, but I have few future expectations for it; I've watched technology stumble from fad to fad for decades, and have no illusions. It's not a matter of "inventing excuses because they can't afford it". I can afford it, and I'm not doing it for the zeal of the non-technical person for Arthur C. Clarke's "magic", either.


Remember: "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." Magic is what excites people. It's the mystery of owning a magical device. As an engineer, I'm a bit more skeptical of magic, especially when magicians argue, overcharge, and change their minds so often.


Sometimes, they're straight out hustlers. Watch them perform their "magic" for a while, and keep you money in your wallet. It's not being poor; it's being judicious, always a good thing.

[Tech-UK]

For the record, even if I had the money to buy 4K kit, I wouldn't do, until the media is available.

You are right Blu-dog, in that the technology isn't ready, but boycotting it now, as many are doing is silly.

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by Blu-Dog

That's harsh...


Entertainment of any kind is not an "investment", it is a cost. Period. It's the same for any other non-essential cost; it is a choice.


Some costs are far out of proportion to real value. Currently, 4K is in that realm - and it may be a calendar year or more before that changes. It is not easily produced or distributed, and considering the mess that is the industry right now, it could stay that way for a while.

The problem with "excitement" is the fact that it is the only fuel running an economic engine that is running very roughly. While "excitement" does allow the user base to participate in the distribution process, it does not help standardize these formats, and works against real competition and usability.


Look at current issues:

• Dolby Atmos as an audio standard
• Atmos is in direct competition with DTS Auro
• HDCP 2.2 - required for the upcoming 4K standard, but not present on all but a handful of receivers
• These receivers are touting Atmos, but with only two height channels
• Auro is a "future upgrade"
• No 4K disc backwards compatibility is mentioned
• No 4K 3-D standard is mentioned at all, let alone backwards compatibility
• No color standard has been named - is it rec.2020, or 10 bit, or 12 bit, or what. It's anybody's guess, buy a television at your own risk (or be slammed with the "you're too poor to appreciate such things" label)

At the risk of putting on my duct tape again, I saw the same nonsense in 2010 with the last technical rollout. It also caused tremendous "excitement", which rapidly devolved into confusion, disgust, and contempt for the industry as a whole for promises not kept. Enthusiasm was what was generated, and it did nothing to reel in costs, establish an understandable standard, or gain widespread acceptance.


It's fine if you're excited. I was happy when I got my new 4K set, but I have few future expectations for it; I've watched technology stumble from fad to fad for decades, and have no illusions. It's not a matter of "inventing excuses because they can't afford it". I can afford it, and I'm not doing it for the zeal of the non-technical person for Arthur C. Clarke's "magic", either.


Remember: "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." Magic is what excites people. It's the mystery of owning a magical device. As an engineer, I'm a bit more skeptical of magic, especially when magicians argue, overcharge, and change their minds so often.


Sometimes, they're straight out hustlers. Watch them perform their "magic" for a while, and keep you money in your wallet. It's not being poor; it's being judicious, always a good thing.

All I was hinting at is that people who were struggling money wise are obviously doing the right thing getting their priorities straight. That's not a Excuse its a reason and a damn good one. I am referring to the constant slagging off of the format before one has seen its potential. It's like people don't want it and they would rather take a huge backwards step with 720p highly compressed material. We know how the industry can sting us but the hate for the format by some is just utterly baffling to me.
By the way, 'last technical rollout' I had to smile at that.

[PeterTHX]

Originally Posted by Lentulus Batiatus

What country sells DVD's at 80% of the market? The same one where people are buying 4K TVs. You are telling me Joe 6-pack in Arkansas is coming home with his brand new 4K TV to watch a library of HD discs and streams? Then why do movie studios still pump out DVD's at a rate of 4:1?

America..... F-_K YEAH!

WTF do you keep ignoring the other points: HD TV/cable/satellite channels? HD video games? HD streaming services like Netflix, Vudu, Amazon, etc.?


BD & DVD are not the only sources of programming for HD or UHD TVs!


PS: you can bet the person who invests in a UHD set *will* have a Blu-ray player.

[Lentulus Batiatus]

Originally Posted by Tech-UK

If you go off figures alone we would never move on.

We won't ever move on so long as studios look at the numbers and are to afraid of any short term drop cause by the discontinuing of DVD only releases may have.

Originally Posted by Tech-UK

Technology needs to be pushed, as long as the technology is available, people will buy it.

They 'might' buy a 4K TV. But as the numbers show just having blu-ray discs available doesn't mean people buy it. People could buy 5 star meals every day but McDonald's rules the food industry. Cheaper, in the US, equates to better to the vast majority of people. These are the same people who 45% or so think man lived side-by-side with dinosaurs.

Originally Posted by Tech-UK

I don't know what your problem is. Why are you against 4K? Is it because you are scared that you will not be able to afford it? Doesn't mean others have to wait.

Show me where I have ANY problem with 4K Blu-ray. Please, I'd like to see the posts I've made slamming the format and it's better quality? My problem isn't the format, the quality or anything of the like. My problem is that blu-ray isn't even close to a 50% market share with stupid studios dropping HD content for SD and now they will try and bring out UHD to a public they continue to pander to with the lowest common denominator. 4K BD will DIE faster than 3D supposedly has died because of the studios. Me wanting BD or 4K or anything won't change that. I want 4K and 3D audio and passive 2K 3D and so on. I like it all. But liking it doesn't mean I can't see how doomed to failure it is because of the studios and their stupidity.

Originally Posted by Steedeel

You can speculate all you like but short of visiting everyone's home you are just guessing.

All everyone who's so against my point is doing is guessing. "I guess most media people watch is at least 720p". "You can bet that people buying 4K TVs have a blu-ray player". "Blu-ray is not the only source of HD" blah blah blah. But you can guess and I make my point and then you can come back with some stat that proves my point and then you can guess some more about how I'm somehow wrong that 4K Blu-ray won't go anywhere because movie studios are stupid and continue to support DVD greatly over any other physical format. The 80% of physical sales stat brought out to support 4K having any chance proves that. Fox stopping blu-ray TV show releases shows that. Having DVD only copies of the latest movies on shelves proves that. Disney not releasing 3D in North America proves that. What more guessing do I have to do when the proof is in the pudding. 4K will be 1% of 1% of physical media sales. That's DOA before it's even released because the studios still support SD content like crazy.,

Originally Posted by PeterTHX

WTF do you keep ignoring the other points: HD TV/cable/satellite channels? HD video games? HD streaming services like Netflix, Vudu, Amazon, etc.?


BD & DVD are not the only sources of programming for HD or UHD TVs!


PS: you can bet the person who invests in a UHD set *will* have a Blu-ray player.

I can? So then everyone who has a HDTV also has a blu-ray player? And they watch a vast majority of blu-rays on that DVD backwards compatible blu-ray player? And they watch the vast majority of their video through HD sources? Really? I can bet that? Like what, a million dollar bet that I will win?

Seriously man, pull your head out of your ass. You are talking to someone who's worked in the electronics sales industry for years. I know what consumers buy and why. My sister has 3 blu-rays players and all her TVs are HD. Her and her husband, who likes to think he knows everything and gets the biggest and the best (that Costco has to offer) buy DVDs all the time. And no, not just DVDs of kiddie movies for the little ones but DVDs of anything. Owning a HDTV or 4KTV doesn't mean you actually watch HD or 4K content on it. My mother won't even learn what the HD channels are and watches Dancing with the Stars in a tiny box in the middle of her screen all the time. She's got all the options available and openly chooses to watch the wort possible content.

I can't even get a bunch of the TV channels I want in HD still. Shit I live in a country that BLEED hockey yet the NHL network is only in SD. Sure I can get the golf channel in HD because that's what I care about watching

WTF do you keep pushing that 4K TV buyers are also eating up HD and 4K content? Where is your proof? I could go sit in Best Buy today and ask every single customer who walks out with a 4K set what they will be watching on it, what content and players they will connect and I'd betting you most will not even know where to find 4K sources let alone have a blu-ray player and stack of blu's under their arm. 4K is a sales gimmick to prove you have the bigger dick right now. When 4K BD hits it's not going to make any ground and will be difficult to find pretty fast so long as the studio supported DVD 80% of sales still exists. That, pal, is something you can bet on.