Sony introduces high-end ZD9 TV series with HDR

[Geoff D]

Good stuff DJR! Great comparison and it highlights how much better the 75" panel is for 3D than the 65" even WITHOUT the Motionflow turned on (I presume you had the image settings exactly the same between them though?).

FWIW I've always noticed a difference in brightness when adjusting the glasses between Low, Medium and High and that has not changed with the latest FW update on the 65".

[DJR662]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Good stuff DJR! Great comparison and it highlights how much better the 75" panel is for 3D than the 65" even WITHOUT the Motionflow turned on (I presume you had the image settings exactly the same between them though?).

FWIW I've always noticed a difference in brightness when adjusting the glasses between Low, Medium and High and that has not changed with the latest FW update on the 65".

Settings are the same except for white balance (and backlight for 2D SDR).

I must stress again that using Motionflow for 3D on the 75" is not some magical fix by a long shot. Results vary on a scene to scene basis and sometimes it does absolutely nothing regarding crosstalk (which I also noticed when I compared a particular scene from Resident Evil Afterlife 3D some time ago). But I still think it is better than nothing.


I forgot to add one picture of The Croods in my previous post:



This is at the very beginning of the movie when the fire particles start to float from the fire. I know this picture looks like shit (it is supposed to be a fire particle that seems to pop out of the screen ), but should anyone wish to check this on their 75", the chapter and timestamp is in the pic.

On the 75", without Motionflow enabled, the particle in question is a faint double image at the beginning of the scene and it becomes noticably more of a double image as it floats nearer towards the viewer. Pop out effects (and subtitles) always seem to have more problems with crosstalk (at least on Sony active 3D TVs). I clearly remember a scene from RE Afterlife for example, in which Alice throws two guns towards the screen: crosstalk galore on my first gen Sony 3D TV (55NX810) back in 2010. Anyway, with Motionflow enabled, the particle is one whole particle with just a very slight hint of ghosting withing the image itself even when it comes closer towards the viewer.

On the 65", the particle already is a double image without Motionflow. But with Motionflow enabled, it seemed like there were three particles plus looking at the paused screen at that particular moment gave me severe eye strain!

[BrownianMotion]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Quite the opposite as even WITH the problems I'd still rather use it than HDR10, particularly on discs that have demonstrably awful HDR10 encoding which the DV cleans up significantly. What I want to see is the Sony low latency mode get tidied up by Dolby so it can be the best it can be, and people are making the issues known to all parties involved.


I don't think anything has changed re: Sony sets having to use low latency DV over HDMI, but you'd have to quiz an AG9 owner about it. The trouble with that, on this forum at least, is that the one guy who has one hates DV so good luck getting anything objective out of him!

Vincent just did a video about this and he says that DV is still dim on the A9G. I wasn't aware that this was a specific issue with the low latency DV profile.

He says that the DV implementation on the LG OLEDs is still the best he has seen. (I'm not sure if the 2016 models ever had the raised black issue fixed, but the 2017 and newer models have.)

I was considering the A9G, since I'm planning an upgrade, but I think I've narrowed it down to the GZ1000 and the LG C9.

[DJR662]

Originally Posted by HDMan72

I just finished the update. I have done a soft reboot on my Z which did fix the flickering image before, only had to do it once and it never came back. I'm talking about the flickering of say a bright daylight scene, very subtle but there due to the active glasses I believe. I just updated and played some 3D titles and noticed the picture seems improved, that slight flickering seems reduced. Didn't notice any crosstalk during scenes from Ready Player One and The Hobbit: An Unexpected Journey. It seems after this update I can actually tell a difference when changing brightness of the glasses. I never really noticed any difference before this latest update.

I checked a couple of scenes from Ready Player One 3D and The Hobbit: An Unexpected Journey 3D on my 75" (still on pre-Oreo firmware).




Motionflow disabled:

Crosstalk on the "scoreboard" on the left side of the screen: the lights on the left corner side of the board are a double image, also some ghosting on the right corner side of the board. The blue lights underneath also exhibit double images. All the "poles" and the "flags" they are holding in the lower middle and lower right side of the screen exhibit ghosting as well as that "blue circle thing" with text on it. Everything there in that part of the screen looks quite muddy.

Motionflow enabeld:

The scoreboard does not exhibit ghosting anymore on either side although the blue lights underneath still show faint double images. The poles, flags and the blue circle also still exhibit some very faint ghosting but certainly not as bad as with Motionflow disabeld. That whole area looks much better now, instead of a muddy mess it now looks more defined.





Motionflow disabled:

The hallway in the background on the right side behind Bilbo looks quite muddy as a whole. It's hard to make out in this picture but there's a pillar of some sort there that's standing in a vertical position. There's also a wooden crate in front of it on the floor. That whole area of the screen looks quite messy.

Motionflow enabled:

The pillar, wooden crate and everything in that part of the screen look a bit better now. It's still not crosstalk free but it looks a little "cleaner" and less murky.


Now here's a title that was known to cause serious crosstalk issues when it was released: My Bloody Valentine 3D (2009). Ofcourse it wasn't the disc itself but rather the TVs it was being played on. I remember vividly it had major crosstalk throughout the entire movie on my first couple of Sony (active) 3D sets. It looked better each time I got a new Sony (active) 3D TV (same principle goes for Sony 3D enabled projectors), but even now on the 75Z9D it is still not without issues. This is one disc I would like to try out next time I visit my friend who has one of the 2016 LG OLEDs.

Here is a pic of My Bloody Valentine 3D taken from the opening scene in the hospital:



Either with Motionflow disabled or enabled, the bloody hand is still a double image. Enabling Motionflow did offer some improvements during the moments before this shot though. This movie has some pretty strong 3D so I think it's logical it has had issues with crosstalk.




I have mentioned this before I think, but it is a shame enabling Motionflow does cause another issue: the picture becomes choppy during slow panning scenes. Now while this can be countered by setting Film Mode to either medium or high (low still looks choppy), that will give the picture a serious SOE which I personally cannot stand. I rather live with the crosstalk to be honest, than having to look at an unnaturally smooth moving picture. It's either that or deal with the occassional choppy looking slow panning scenes when Motionflow is enabled.

During chapter 2 in The Hobbit (from 0:09:41 to 0:09:58) for example, there's a slow panning scene in which we see a landscape and Frodo checking the mailbox I believe. With Motionflow set to off and Film Mode also off, it looks like how it is supposed to look (although I guess in this particular case that could be debated... ). With Motionflow activated and Film Mode set to either medium or high, the picture has that dreaded artificial smoothness to it when moving which I really hate.

Anyway, I have enough info now regarding crosstalk on a couple of 3D titles. I have just updated my 75" to the latest firmware over USB. I noticed the Sony Select channel is back on the main menu screen , so first I'm going over everything again to see what else has been changed. Then it's back to trying out the 3D discs and see if there is any difference.

[HDMan72]

I'm going to watch the scenes from Ready Player One and the Hobbit on my 65" and I'll report back. Film Mode is the equivalent of Cinemotion?

[HDMan72]

Originally Posted by DJR662

I checked a couple of scenes from Ready Player One 3D and The Hobbit: An Unexpected Journey 3D on my 75" (still on pre-Oreo firmware).




Motionflow disabled:

Crosstalk on the "scoreboard" on the left side of the screen: the lights on the left corner side of the board are a double image, also some ghosting on the right corner side of the board. The blue lights underneath also exhibit double images. All the "poles" and the "flags" they are holding in the lower middle and lower right side of the screen exhibit ghosting as well as that "blue circle thing" with text on it. Everything there in that part of the screen looks quite muddy.

Motionflow enabeld:

The scoreboard does not exhibit ghosting anymore on either side although the blue lights underneath still show faint double images. The poles, flags and the blue circle also still exhibit some very faint ghosting but certainly not as bad as with Motionflow disabeld. That whole area looks much better now, instead of a muddy mess it now looks more defined.





Motionflow disabled:

The hallway in the background on the right side behind Bilbo looks quite muddy as a whole. It's hard to make out in this picture but there's a pillar of some sort there that's standing in a vertical position. There's also a wooden crate in front of it on the floor. That whole area of the screen looks quite messy.

Motionflow enabled:

The pillar, wooden crate and everything in that part of the screen look a bit better now. It's still not crosstalk free but it looks a little "cleaner" and less murky.


Now here's a title that was known to cause serious crosstalk issues when it was released: My Bloody Valentine 3D (2009). Ofcourse it wasn't the disc itself but rather the TVs it was being played on. I remember vividly it had major crosstalk throughout the entire movie on my first couple of Sony (active) 3D sets. It looked better each time I got a new Sony (active) 3D TV (same principle goes for Sony 3D enabled projectors), but even now on the 75Z9D it is still not without issues. This is one disc I would like to try out next time I visit my friend who has one of the 2016 LG OLEDs.

Here is a pic of My Bloody Valentine 3D taken from the opening scene in the hospital:



Either with Motionflow disabled or enabled, the bloody hand is still a double image. Enabling Motionflow did offer some improvements during the moments before this shot though. This movie has some pretty strong 3D so I think it's logical it has had issues with crosstalk.




I have mentioned this before I think, but it is a shame enabling Motionflow does cause another issue: the picture becomes choppy during slow panning scenes. Now while this can be countered by setting Film Mode to either medium or high (low still looks choppy), that will give the picture a serious SOE which I personally cannot stand. I rather live with the crosstalk to be honest, than having to look at an unnaturally smooth moving picture. It's either that or deal with the occassional choppy looking slow panning scenes when Motionflow is enabled.

During chapter 2 in The Hobbit (from 0:09:41 to 0:09:58) for example, there's a slow panning scene in which we see a landscape and Frodo checking the mailbox I believe. With Motionflow set to off and Film Mode also off, it looks like how it is supposed to look (although I guess in this particular case that could be debated... ). With Motionflow activated and Film Mode set to either medium or high, the picture has that dreaded artificial smoothness to it when moving which I really hate.

Anyway, I have enough info now regarding crosstalk on a couple of 3D titles. I have just updated my 75" to the latest firmware over USB. I noticed the Sony Select channel is back on the main menu screen , so first I'm going over everything again to see what else has been changed. Then it's back to trying out the 3D discs and see if there is any difference.

I just tried something here, took a couple pics through my glasses. Not sure what this will even show but I figured why not. Normally I'm sitting about 9.5' away from my 65". I have Motionflow disabled, my Cinemotion is on High but from what I've read before it shouldn't matter here. I hope. I'm on current Oreo firmware.

Ready Player One


I did see slight ghosting on right side of scoreboard, very slight, I had to get closer to my screen to confirm. Left side looked great. The blue lights underneath were not doubled and the flag poles looked good. This scene looked fantastic.

The Hobbit


I could clearly see the pillar and the wooden crate, no crosstalk around Bilbo. The background was clean but also I think original photography makes it a little murky. I might check this seen out in 2D and see if its any different.

Interesting findings.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by BrownianMotion

Vincent just did a video about this and he says that DV is still dim on the A9G. I wasn't aware that this was a specific issue with the low latency DV profile.

He says that the DV implementation on the LG OLEDs is still the best he has seen. (I'm not sure if the 2016 models ever had the raised black issue fixed, but the 2017 and newer models have.)

I was considering the A9G, since I'm planning an upgrade, but I think I've narrowed it down to the GZ1000 and the LG C9.

I love Sony TVs but their OLEDs have never been too high on the list for me, if I had to go OLED it'd have to be Panny.

[HDMan72]

Geoff, when you use UHD Benchmark disc is it wise turn off local dimming when looking at patterns such as contrast and brightness? I’ve read before of some doing this just during calibration process.

[RalphoR]

Just out of curiosity, has anyone purchased the 85" Z9G? I know the Z9F has been somewhat of a disappointment to most so was wondering if the Z9G is more closely related to the Z9D. $13k is a huge chunk of change but someone might have taken the plunge.

[DJR662]

Originally Posted by HDMan72

I'm going to watch the scenes from Ready Player One and the Hobbit on my 65" and I'll report back. Film Mode is the equivalent of Cinemotion?

Yeah, Cinemotion is called Film mode on my models.

Originally Posted by HDMan72

I just tried something here, took a couple pics through my glasses. Not sure what this will even show but I figured why not. Normally I'm sitting about 9.5' away from my 65". I have Motionflow disabled, my Cinemotion is on High but from what I've read before it shouldn't matter here. I hope. I'm on current Oreo firmware.

Ready Player One


I did see slight ghosting on right side of scoreboard, very slight, I had to get closer to my screen to confirm. Left side looked great. The blue lights underneath were not doubled and the flag poles looked good. This scene looked fantastic.

The Hobbit


I could clearly see the pillar and the wooden crate, no crosstalk around Bilbo. The background was clean but also I think original photography makes it a little murky. I might check this seen out in 2D and see if its any different.

Interesting findings.

I just took a look aqain at that scene of RP1 on my pre-Oreo 65". It doesn't look so good to my eyes to be honest when pausing the scene (viewing distance is about 2 meters/6,6 ft).

The lights in a vertical row on the left side of the board have some ghosting to it on the left side as well as on the right side. All of the info on the board like "4th, 5th, 6th" etc also have very slight ghosting. Starting from the left, the first 4 or so of that row of small blue lights in an oval form underneath the scoreboard have noticable ghosting. That giant "sail" or whatever that is on the lower left side also has quite noticable ghosting, as do the poles and the flags and the blue circle on the lower right side.


I also took a look again at the same scenes from RP1, The Hobbit, The Croods and My Bloody Valentine on my 75" that I watched before the update. My conclusion is they all looked the same regarding crosstalk as they did before I did the update, with and without Motionflow.

Now I'm not saying other people are wrong or they are seeing things which aren't there. I'm just stating what I am seeing here based on my comparisons and I don't see any difference. I haven't updated my 65" yet but I have a feeling the results after the update will be the same for me...


I do like the new homescreen on the 75" though, it's been cleaned up but a bit too much I think. The only things I am seeing are the apps (those that I personally use which are restricted to the internal video, music and photo apps, I "deleted"everything else ). There used to be a row underneath that showing everything that has been hooked up to the TV/AV receiver but that's gone now? If I want to select a source, I now have to select "inputs" I think on the top right corner of the screen. I prefer the old way. I didn't really looked into this for long so I'm hoping I'll be able to bring it back.

The internal video app looks much better though! When hooking up an external HDD, its contents is much better organized and much more pleasing to look at also.

[DJR662]

Originally Posted by RalphoR

Just out of curiosity, has anyone purchased the 85" Z9G? I know the Z9F has been somewhat of a disappointment to most so was wondering if the Z9G is more closely related to the Z9D. $13k is a huge chunk of change but someone might have taken the plunge.

I might have been willing to take the plunge if it had the same LED controlled BMD as the Z9D and no X-wide view angle.

[BLMN]

DJR662, Im curious to see your evaluation with Oreo installed. Do you happen to have the German made scarlet haven 3D glasses that people at AVS said eliminate completely the crosstalk ? was also curious on that. I know people tried on pre-oreo and they had synch issues with them.

[DJR662]

Originally Posted by BLMN

DJR662, Im curious to see your evaluation with Oreo installed. Do you happen to have the German made scarlet haven 3D glasses that people at AVS said eliminate completely the crosstalk ? was also curious on that. I know people tried on pre-oreo and they had synch issues with them.

I recently bougth the Hi-shock 3D Pro Black Diamond (catchy name ) and while they are better to use because of the larger glasses (than the Sony ones which are actually quite small), I did not notice any difference with the 3D picture itself (including crosstalk). My pair synced just fine on my pre-Oreo TVs though.

Come to think of it, wasn't it you in the Z9D owners thread over at AVS who brought up these glasses and got me interested?

[BLMN]

Originally Posted by DJR662

I recently bougth the Hi-shock 3D Pro Black Diamond (catchy name ) and while they are better to use because of the larger glasses (than the Sony ones which are actually quite small), I did not notice any difference with the 3D picture itself (including crosstalk). My pair synced just fine on my pre-Oreo TVs though.

Come to think of it, wasn't it you in the Z9D owners thread over at AVS who brought up these glasses and got me interested?

yes, im on the z9d facebook group and quite a few people bought those glasses so i wanted to be sure before buying them.

[Auditor55]

Originally Posted by DJR662

I might have been willing to take the plunge if it had the same LED controlled BMD as the Z9D and no X-wide view angle.

Why wouldn't you want the wide view angle? The main weakness of the Z9D is its very narrow viewing angle.

[DJR662]

Originally Posted by Auditor55

Why wouldn't you want the wide view angle? The main weakness of the Z9D is its very narrow viewing angle.

Yes, the Z9D has the most narrow viewing angle I have ever seen on a LCD. But I'll glady take that weakness if that's what it takes to make a TV like the Z9D. Besides I don't care since I always sit dead center in front of the TV anyway.

But more importantly, X-wide view has a negative impact on black level/contrast...

[Auditor55]

Originally Posted by DJR662

Yes, the Z9D has the most narrow viewing angle I have ever seen on a LCD. But I'll glady take that weakness if that's what it takes to make a TV like the Z9D. Besides I don't care since I always sit dead center in front of the TV anyway.

But more importantly, X-wide view has a negative impact on black level/contrast...

It's hard to beat a Z9D looking dead center.

[pbz06]

Originally Posted by RalphoR

Just out of curiosity, has anyone purchased the 85" Z9G? I know the Z9F has been somewhat of a disappointment to most so was wondering if the Z9G is more closely related to the Z9D. $13k is a huge chunk of change but someone might have taken the plunge.

It's out of my price range

But I am looking to upgrade my 65" Z9D, only for size...in my new living room setup it's just borderline too small. Unfortunately the Z9G is too expensive and the other TVs aren't good enough for me still.

Looking at the 77" A9G now but I feel like I'm exchanging tradeoffs more than really upgrading. Also contemplating a 75" Z9F but worried I might regret. Might hold off until next year but it's hard.

[GenPion]

I know several of you said a recent firmware update fixed 3D issues on the Z9D set but for those still having some issues with crosstalk I read on another forum the following suggestion:

Toggle off HDM Enhanced Mode

Soft Reset (Hold Power 5 Seconds)

And supposedly that resolves the 3D issues for the set. For those still having issues and doing comparisons, go ahead and test those settings out and it might do a magic trick for you.

Essentially, the Enhanced HDMI mode (usually for HDR 10/DV) needs to be toggled off to fix the issues with 3D. Unless the new firmware did resolve this for most. You can always turn enhanced mode back on for 4K titles.

[pbz06]

I also recommend when watching Dolby Vision, go into Moionflow settings, switch to Custom, put Clearness to 0, then go back to True Cinema. There was a glitch where it would enable Clearness while in True Cinema after the last update or before.

I don't know if that's the dimness issue people are referring to. I tried some more A B comparisons today but they look identical to me. Of course, they're not side by side since I have to exit completely and manually change.