Panasonic UB820/UB9000 4K UHD Blu-ray player

[vertigop1ayer]

Is the 820 still one of the best options for its MSRP? Broad question I know but I had "decided" on it months ago and then stopped paying attention. Now I am thinking about it again.

(I would be running it to an LG OELD)

[Scorxpion]

Originally Posted by vertigop1ayer

Is the 820 still one of the best options for its MSRP? Broad question I know but I had "decided" on it months ago and then stopped paying attention. Now I am thinking about it again.

(I would be running it to an LG OELD)

What are you waiting for take the plunge, u can't find a better player to connect through your oled TV than panny.

[jonathananM]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

It sounds like your 820 is stuck in-between this reality and a different dimension. I'm not sure if Pannysonic have that listed in their help FAQs.

Srsly tho, I've never heard of that before ever ever ever. Could always give the unit a full reset, see if that clears any wonky memory.

The player is fine now; watched a couple BDs last night no problem. BUT if I put in that corrupt "Annie Hall" disc again, my 820 still shows glitchy imprinted images from whatever disc was loaded previously. Very odd. (My wife suggested that the 820, like the rest of America, has simply cancelled Woody Allen. She might be onto something...).

The only other example I can think of where a player keeps the disc's image after it's ejected is that Weyland Yutani menu on the Alien BDs. My Oppo will keep showing that logo even after I've taken out the disc and put it back on the shelf!

[Member-425016]

Originally Posted by jonathananM

The player is fine now; watched a couple BDs last night no problem. BUT if I put in that corrupt "Annie Hall" disc again, my 820 still shows glitchy imprinted images from whatever disc was loaded previously. Very odd. (My wife suggested that the 820, like the rest of America, has simply cancelled Woody Allen. She might be onto something...).

The only other example I can think of where a player keeps the disc's image after it's ejected is that Weyland Yutani menu on the Alien BDs. My Oppo will keep showing that logo even after I've taken out the disc and put it back on the shelf!

I think these Panny units are the equal of Volkswagen (VW=Very Weird) in that they seldom display problems or glitches, but when they do they are very odd indeed, and don't usually repeat themselves. I have had under a handful of issues w/ my 9000, and they were all of them head scratchers to say the least.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by jonathananM

The player is fine now; watched a couple BDs last night no problem. BUT if I put in that corrupt "Annie Hall" disc again, my 820 still shows glitchy imprinted images from whatever disc was loaded previously. Very odd. (My wife suggested that the 820, like the rest of America, has simply cancelled Woody Allen. She might be onto something...).

The only other example I can think of where a player keeps the disc's image after it's ejected is that Weyland Yutani menu on the Alien BDs. My Oppo will keep showing that logo even after I've taken out the disc and put it back on the shelf!

Those Alien discs were mastered that way, yep, called MU-TH-UR Mode or something where you could bookmark your favourite special features and collate them into one playlist. I can only think that the corruption on the Annie Hall disc is triggering a similar thing in the player, like NE-BB-ISH Mode.

[BijouMan]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Those Alien discs were mastered that way, yep, called MU-TH-UR Mode or something where you could bookmark your favourite special features and collate them into one playlist. I can only think that the corruption on the Annie Hall disc is triggering a similar thing in the player, like NE-BB-ISH Mode.

Didn’t know those modes were a thing.

[Oscarilbo]

Guys, needing some help here.

I’m enjoying so much the HDR-SDR709 conversion of the panny for my projector. Per Kris Deering advise I always let the optimizer ON, and in every movie looks great... except AQUAMAN. It looks bettter with Optimizer OFF, more saturated and richer colors and better contrast too, like a dull vail is lifted. Why is that with this movie?

EDIT: After some re-reading, could it be because with this movie both maxcll and maxdml (which are where the panasonic player tone mapping alternates with, with the optimizer ON, according to kris) are way over 1000 nits, leaving the optimizer setting OFF with the best option (no more than 1000 nits)??

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by Oscarilbo

Guys, needing some help here.

I’m enjoying so much the HDR-SDR709 conversion of the panny for my projector. Per Kris Deering advise I always let the optimizer ON, and in every movie looks great... except AQUAMAN. It looks bettter with Optimizer OFF, more saturated and richer colors and better contrast too, like a dull vail is lifted. Why is that with this movie?

EDIT: After some re-reading, could it be because with this movie both maxcll and maxdml (which are where the panasonic player tone mapping alternates with, with the optimizer ON, according to kris) are way over 1000 nits, leaving the optimizer setting OFF with the best option (no more than 1000 nits)??

Aquaman is quite "fake" HDR in my opinion, not the Teoh definition of "fake HDR" (SDR levels in HDR container) but the opposite, that it's not got much more range than SDR yet it's been graded with many thousands of nits of brightness. Very colourful, lots of "pop", but fake AF.

So when the Optimiser applies its tone mapping it thinks it's compressing ~3200 nits of range but there's a fraction of that actually in there, so it ends up collapsing the range rather than preserving it.

[Member-425016]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Aquaman is quite "fake" HDR in my opinion, not the Teoh definition of "fake HDR" (SDR levels in HDR container) but the opposite, that it's not got much more range than SDR yet it's been graded with many thousands of nits of brightness. Very colourful, lots of "pop", but fake AF.

I thought it looked insanely bright and over saturated via DRC.

[pbz06]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Aquaman is quite "fake" HDR in my opinion, not the Teoh definition of "fake HDR" (SDR levels in HDR container) but the opposite, that it's not got much more range than SDR yet it's been graded with many thousands of nits of brightness. Very colourful, lots of "pop", but fake AF.

So when the Optimiser applies its tone mapping it thinks it's compressing ~3200 nits of range but there's a fraction of that actually in there, so it ends up collapsing the range rather than preserving it.

That's correct, and I also noticed that because I used to pop in Aquaman for demo material (mostly for audio purposes) and also when testing TV settings. It's really noticeable if you pause on a scene with highlights in the background (say one of the early scenes in the submarine, the overhead hanging lights are blown out) and you turn down Contrast or flick between the Optimizer on/off, you don't gain a single spec of detail in the blown out parts. It only affects the overall brightness.

[Oscarilbo]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Aquaman is quite "fake" HDR in my opinion, not the Teoh definition of "fake HDR" (SDR levels in HDR container) but the opposite, that it's not got much more range than SDR yet it's been graded with many thousands of nits of brightness. Very colourful, lots of "pop", but fake AF.

So when the Optimiser applies its tone mapping it thinks it's compressing ~3200 nits of range but there's a fraction of that actually in there, so it ends up collapsing the range rather than preserving it.

Originally Posted by pbz06

That's correct, and I also noticed that because I used to pop in Aquaman for demo material (mostly for audio purposes) and also when testing TV settings. It's really noticeable if you pause on a scene with highlights in the background (say one of the early scenes in the submarine, the overhead hanging lights are blown out) and you turn down Contrast or flick between the Optimizer on/off, you don't gain a single spec of detail in the blown out parts. It only affects the overall brightness.

Thank you guys. And yeah, that’s exactly what I noticed. With the optimizer off it look pretty good, good color and contrast, but turning it ON the most brighter scenes became very dull, less color and contrast yet no gain in detail at all in highlights, just the exact same amount of detail but duller.

I guess Aquaman is kind of an oddity between 4K HDR discs, then. Are there any other 4K discs in the same situation as this one?

[Geoff D]

The Meg and Specific Rim are two other examples of this kind of HDR. Rim isn't as extreme in the brightness but it still has a MaxCLL of ~2400 nits without so much as a shred of extra highlight information vs the SDR version. Not that this can't still be pleasurable - Rim is renowned as a UHD 'demo disc' for a reason - but if your tone mapping isn't on point then it could look more blown out than the SDR. Eh, that's HDR in a nutshell I 'spose: good tone mapping is as vital a part of a display's armoury as having thousands of nits, infinite contrast and all that other good stuff.

All that gear without decent tone mapping is useless to me, it's partly why I haven't gone OLED thus far but Pannysonic and Sony have really stepped up and made it a lot more enticing. I can't see myself replacing the ZD9 while it's still breathing, but one day my pretties, one day...

[Oscarilbo]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

The Meg and Specific Rim are two other examples of this kind of HDR. Rim isn't as extreme in the brightness but it still has a MaxCLL of ~2400 nits without so much as a shred of extra highlight information vs the SDR version. Not that this can't still be pleasurable - Rim is renowned as a UHD 'demo disc' for a reason - but if your tone mapping isn't on point then it could look more blown out than the SDR. Eh, that's HDR in a nutshell I 'spose: good tone mapping is as vital a part of a display's armoury as having thousands of nits, infinite contrast and all that other good stuff.

All that gear without decent tone mapping is useless to me, it's partly why I haven't gone OLED thus far but Pannysonic and Sony have really stepped up and made it a lot more enticing. I can't see myself replacing the ZD9 while it's still breathing, but one day my pretties, one day...

You’re absolutely right, I just tried Pacific Rim (HDR to SDR conversion with projector) and same thing, it looks better with Optimizer OFF, although the difference is not as big as with Aquaman, it has better color saturation and contrast with OFF. The key apparently is in an old explanation by Mr. Kris Deering:

Now, with SDR2020 the HDR Optimizer DOES do something. The reason a lot of you aren't seeing any difference between on and off is because the majority of titles on the market are mastered to 1000 nits. With HDR Optimizer OFF, the player is defaulting to a 1000 nit based tone map. With it ON, the player is adjusting the tone map based on the MaxCLL or MaxDML (which is 1000 for A LOT of movies!!!). If MaxCLL is less than MaxDML, it uses CLL. If MaxCLL is higher than DML, it uses DML. If MaxCLL is 0 it uses DML. If all are zero, it uses 1000. So I would suggest that you turn is ON. The only title that I feel this could cause an issue with is Sicario, as it has a MaxCLL of 0 and MaxDML of 4000 but the MaxCLL is actually really close to 1000, so this is a title where HDR Optimizer OFF will actually look MUCH better. Otherwise, On would work with 99% of titles more effectively.

So by what I understand, if neither MaxCll and MaxDML go under 1000 nits tone mapping, its better to leave the Optimizer OFF which will default for a 1000 nits based tone mapping. If one of both do go under 1000 nits the optimizer will use the lesser one and thats when having it ON becomes a useful tool. Again all this is using the HDR -SDR conversion option of the panasonic. Did I understand correctly?.

[Geoff D]

I dunno, with these kinds of "fake HDR" transfers then the problem is the Optimiser itself not realising that it's fake HDR, it's not so much about the numbers but what's been mastered within those numbers. As the Optimiser does not analyse the image itself in any way then it can only apply what it thinks is the correct mapping. Go with what looks besht.

[Oscarilbo]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

I dunno, with these kinds of "fake HDR" transfers then the problem is the Optimiser itself not realising that it's fake HDR, it's not so much about the numbers but what's been mastered within those numbers. As the Optimiser does not analyse the image itself in any way then it can only apply what it thinks is the correct mapping. Go with what looks besht.

Oh I get it. I think I misunderstood Mr. Deering’s explanation, I thought if MaxCLL and MaxDML were over 1000 nits then it would be better to let it off, but that’s not true. Optimizer ON (HDR to SDR mode) can tone map to whatever nits are on those values, no matter if they are way over 1000 nits, giving you the best PQ representation, but the rule is broken on those fake HDR movies, right?

[Geoff D]

Exactly, yes: conventional rules don't apply. The problem is that you won't know they don't apply until you start watching it! But for HDR viewers this is where dynamic metadata is so important because the metadata will know what the source is supposed to look at 100 or 600 or 1000 or 2000 or 4000 nits (depending on how many trim passes were done) and it removes the guesswork. But for static HDR10 or SDR conversion thereof then you're at the mercy of how smart your TV/player's internal tone mapping is.

[Oscarilbo]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Exactly, yes: conventional rules don't apply. The problem is that you won't know they don't apply until you start watching it! But for HDR viewers this is where dynamic metadata is so important because the metadata will know what the source is supposed to look at 100 or 600 or 1000 or 2000 or 4000 nits (depending on how many trim passes were done) and it removes the guesswork. But for static HDR10 or SDR conversion thereof then you're at the mercy of how smart your TV/player's internal tone mapping is.

Thank you. So in the case of the HDR-SDR conversion for a "nit starving" displays of the panasonic player, it is closer to a dynamic metadata than a guessing game, isn't? thanks to these numbers the player knows exactly how's suppose to look and thats the converted signal it sends.

[Geoff D]

Yes but then any decent TV will look at the same static MaxCLL metadata that the Optimiser is looking at to determine its mapping...and the problem then becomes the same thing, that the metadata doesn't accurately reflect the "fake HDR" properties of the content. So in a sense we're all guessing without dynamic metadata, but some guesses will be nearer the mark than not.

[Oscarilbo]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Yes but then any decent TV will look at the same static MaxCLL metadata that the Optimiser is looking at to determine its mapping...and the problem then becomes the same thing, that the metadata doesn't accurately reflect the "fake HDR" properties of the content. So in a sense we're all guessing without dynamic metadata, but some guesses will be nearer the mark than not.

This whole HDR thing has been a mess... I mean, when done right it looks wonderful, and maybe many times it can be even without the correct metadata reading, but even then you don't have the image intended by the filmmakers, so... damn. I see more and more TVs are starting to come with more complex "dynamic metadata" functions for HDR10 handling, I guess given the headaches it has meant.

[pbz06]

Originally Posted by Oscarilbo

This whole HDR thing has been a mess... I mean, when done right it looks wonderful, and maybe many times it can be even without the correct metadata reading, but even then you don't have the image intended by the filmmakers, so... damn. I see more and more TVs are starting to come with more complex "dynamic metadata" functions for HDR10 handling, I guess given the headaches it has meant.

Yup, so much for "standards". Between the various dolby vision profiles, TV led vs player led, static tonemapping vs dynamic tonemapping, and the numerous tiers of TV models and their capabilities, strengths and weaknesses, LED or OLED etc...I'm convinced none of us are watching the same thing nor as the creator intended