Panasonic UB820/UB9000 4K UHD Blu-ray player

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by Kris Deering

The OLED curve is the same (1000 nits) but it has a different model for color saturation. Panasonic compensated for the saturation difference inherent with R,G,B,W panels.

Ryan's disc has single metadata for whole disc. Stacey's will be different PER PATTERN. I made sure to tell Stacey I wanted this first thing. I also showed him what Panasonic is doing with their internal test disc which allows you to change the metadata on the fly. So you should have better results when Stacey's disc comes out.

The bolded is what I literally just said, yes. But Ryan did add some 50-100% nit ramps mastered with 1K, 4K and 10K metadata (I've not got the disc, I use the downloads) and they do actually change when I use the different Panny Optimiser settings, but this isn't enough to plot an accurate chart of what the luminance curve is actually doing of course.

What's more troubling though Kris is that the DV output appears to be clipping upwards of 2K-nit highlight detail on my ZD9 - this is regardless of where the Optimiser is set - and the other issue is that as the HDR Optimisation goes up it also appears to be clipping the upper expanses of the HDR10 range more aggressively.

In other words, if I had a piece of 4K-nit encoded content (with real peaks in that vicinity) then I would expect the Optimiser to map out to the same level, so it would take over from 500/1000/1500 nits depending on the mode and end up with the 4000-nit information mapped into the image. But it doesn't seem to do that. I'm working on some more informed testing of this, but it looks as if the Basic mode does indeed go out to ~ 4000 nits for the mapping but the Medium setting seems to clip the same piece of content to between 3000-3500 nits and the Super High setting clips at nearer 2000-2500 nits!

Call me crazy but I would've thought that the Optimiser would end up with the same 'final destination' as far as the tone mapping (or whatever you'd like to call it ) of x highlights was concerned?

[Kris Deering]

Interesting. I wonder if that is a function of DV? I thought the optimizer only applied to HDR10 content, not DV (they didn't have DV enabled when I reviewed it). It may also be a limitation of your display with DV, since the internal DV processing will have its own information on the display and what it should do when it sees DV material. Have you tried the same material with DV off and on? That way you can see how the player handles the same content in both formats?

[Geoff D]

Of coursh I've checked it. As badly as the Super High mode is clipping what I estimate to be >2500 highlight information, it's still resolving more highlights than the DV!

Here's the thing that's throwing me: my OPPO's DV output is resolving all the extra information that the Panny's DV is throwing away, this is with identical TV settings on both inputs (each player is connected direct to TV via HDMI, no AVR passthru involved) so unless there are different DV 'circuits' wired to different HDMI sockets then it's not the TV's doing. I can adjust the TV's contrast up or down on the OPPO's DV output and this will clip/resolve highlight information respectively, but on the Panny's DV output then lowering the TV's contrast makes no difference, the player appears to be hard clipping the DV output internally and changing the Optimiser settings makes no difference.

TBH I'm more concerned about the HDR10 Optimiser clipping than anything though. Having a Super High nit mode is ****ing useless to me if it passes 1500 nits but throws away everything above 2500-ish nits.

[Staying Salty]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

... this is with identical TV settings on both inputs (each player is connected direct to TV via HDMI, no AVR passthru involved) so unless there are different DV 'circuits' wired to different HDMI sockets then it's not the TV's doing...

Perhaps swap the HDMI inputs to ensure that the TV is treating the signals the same.

[Geoff D]

I've thought about doing that and when I get a chance I'll do so. I think I know what the result is gonna be, but I'll do it anyway.

[Geoff D]

Okay, I tried it with the two players swapped around, leaving the HDMI cables as they are, just in case people think it might even be the cables......and the 820 is behaving exactly as it was. DV is clipping >2000 nit highlights and so is the Super High luminance setting in HDR10 with the Optimiser set to on. (Firmware is on latest 1.47 version.)

I think this is a case of the ZD9 applying mapping/clipping atop of the player's mapping and the TV just doesn't respond to it the way that a lower nit display would do. I could just treat it like a lower nit display and use the Medium or Basic setting when watching a HDR10 disc with >2000 nit highlights (though Dolby Vision if available will usually take precedence, thru the OPPO of course), but then I'd be throwing away a lot of the native grunt that the TV would have in those situations. Hmmmmm. More questions than answers, the Optimiser has raised.

[Cortiz]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Okay, I tried it with the two players swapped around, leaving the HDMI cables as they are, just in case people think it might even be the cables......and the 820 is behaving exactly as it was. DV is clipping >2000 nit highlights and so is the Super High luminance setting in HDR10 with the Optimiser set to on. (Firmware is on latest 1.47 version.)

I think this is a case of the ZD9 applying mapping/clipping atop of the player's mapping and the TV just doesn't respond to it the way that a lower nit display would do. I could just treat it like a lower nit display and use the Medium or Basic setting when watching a HDR10 disc with >2000 nit highlights (though Dolby Vision if available will usually take precedence, thru the OPPO of course), but then I'd be throwing away a lot of the native grunt that the TV would have in those situations. Hmmmmm. More questions than answers, the Optimiser has raised.

Geoff, i have a similar TV as your, you mind providing your general picture settings for viewing HDR content and SD content? thanks!

[elvis1608]

Originally Posted by chip75

There is, I think you have to hold down the button for three seconds. Only hacked UB420s get the advanced info screen (I think they get Dolby Vision too).

Hi there, what's the hack? Not come across that?

[chip75]

Originally Posted by elvis1608

Hi there, what's the hack? Not come across that?

It's a paid firmware upgrade that gives the option to select different regions.

[Clark Burk]

Yep, but you have to pay additional funds if you want to update each time a new firmware comes out. It can add up.....

[elvis1608]

Originally Posted by chip75

It's a paid firmware upgrade that gives the option to select different regions.

Thanks for the info. 👍🏼

[elvis1608]

Originally Posted by Kris Deering

If you are using a Sony projector with this player make sure in the advanced menu you have HDR set to AUTO, not ON or OFF. It will then automatically apply the 2020 color mode for the input, but will NOT apply the HDR EOTF (so your contrast slider should NOT say Contrast HDR).

Hi there
I have a Sony Vw500 projector which is not hdr or rec 2020 I believe. I have an oppo 203 but bought the ub420 as the hdr to sdr is better and wanted to be able to take advantage of the 4k resolution. I'm still a bit confused of the benifits of the hdr optimiser for my non hdr projector. You really know what your talking about so wanted to ask your advice and if you could maybe give me some tips of optimal settings on the player for my projecter. Thanks in advance.

[elvis1608]

Can anyone shed any light why I'm not getting the 4k badge on netflix? I'm getting 4k with prime but not Netflix?

[Geoff D]

I *think* I'm getting a handle on what the HDR Optimiser is actually doing to/with/in spite of my TV. For those who have an aversion to people who seek to gain knowledge and/or to lots of technical gibberish, please look away now. Right, on with the waffle. There's no better aid to sleeping than reading a Geoffy post!

My 65" ZD9 measures just under 2000 nits peak (10% window) with a curve that follows the PQ EOTF pretty well, at least in the 0-1000 nit range, whereafter it gets bit more variable the higher it goes. To stick to this brightness curve - not just because of DEM DERE NITS but to maintain the correct APL which is so crucial when viewing those discs that are not far away from being SDR-in-HDR and which DON'T kick out a lot of brightness - then the TV's mapping starts to noticeably clip at about 1500 nits. It can still resolve 2000-ish nits in test patterns (Sony 7669 ramp and Ryan Masciola's ramp) but these get increasingly faint and so in real-world terms 1500 is where it leaves off.

That TV calibration, done under the Cinema Pro preset, has been my 'go to' HDR viewing mode, and while I've got another mode under Cinema Home which I've reduced contrast on in order to stretch out to 4000 nits, this has the effect of reducing the luminance output by roughly a third. It's not particularly damaging to such content in terms of the 'HDR effect' because ~1200 nits peak is still more than most sets out there can manage. But it does quell colour volume by a noticeable amount, not so much that content now looks black and white, however the colour is deffo less vibrant. It's a trade-off I've been happy to use on the small amount of content that truly reaches out into the 4000-nit stratosphere, but even this mode has seen very little use in the last few months since the Dolby Vision update to the TV because any new content that exceeds 1500 nits and is encoded in DV has been able to be adequately mapped by the telly.

BUT, me being me, I keep hearing about the wondrous Lourdes-esque properties that the HDR Optimiser has, so I had to get a look for myself. Leaving the OLED mode aside (as Kris said, it has different colour stuff for OLED) then I've been comparing the Basic, Medium/High (which I'll just call Medium) and Super High (which I'll just call Super) Optimised modes with some bits of demanding 4000-nit content. I kept wondering why the Super mode was visibly clipping brighter highlights whereas Basic and Medium clawed back a good 3000-4000 nits worth of information, all on the same TV settings. I initially thought that the player was hard clipping but after further usage I found that I *can* bring back the 'lost' information by turning the contrast down a few clicks on the TV (unlike the Panny's DV output, but that's for another discussion).

I then realised - duh - that the TV was doing the rolling off of highlights in Super mode, not the player, and seeing as the TV settings I'm using are 'clipping' at 1500 nits then it follows that the player's Basic and Medium 'Optimised' modes are compressing most of the 4000-nit information into 1500 nits or less - but although the Super mode is indeed doing some highlight compression it's not folding the entire range down into <1500 like the other two modes. Instead it seems to compress a 4000-nit image into 2500 nits or thereabouts, I can't verify this using metered readings on Super or Medium because the metadata of Ryan Masciola's patterns is @ 1000 nits, but I can get it to work on the Basic mode and the chart is presented here.



Red is the 'untouched' HDR reading and yellow is the Basic Optimised curve, which instead of lurching towards the traditional 'shelf' at the top has a very gentle, orderly roll off from about 50% upwards that's perfect for preserving the SDR-esque APL of most HDR content. 90% of the PQ curve represents ~4000 nits and the player's 90% measurement is at about 900 nits so my theory holds true there at least, that the player is folding 4000 nits down into something that my Cinema Pro 1500 nit settings can easily manage. My hunch is that the Medium mode, when I can measure it, will show somewhere between 1300-1500 nits @ 90% which is why it also fits 4000-nit content nicely into the range that my TV is handling. But the Super mode does not, to put it simply.

[Robert Zohn]

Very nice analysis Geoff!

When you time permits can you give us your take on the video processing for FHD/SDR and UHD/HDR compared to your OPPO player.

[dominica]

Geoff thanks for the work and analysis of the HDR optimizer using the UB820. I have to give the Basic or Medium a test. The Panasonic, was set to Super day one. I have the UB820, Oppo 203 in my setup with the 75 Z9D, moved the Sony UBP-X700 to the office setup.

If you want me to do a test, I will give it a try ( I am no expert )

[ray0414]

Originally Posted by elvis1608

Can anyone shed any light why I'm not getting the 4k badge on netflix? I'm getting 4k with prime but not Netflix?

Do you have the highest plan?

[elvis1608]

Originally Posted by ray0414

Do you have the highest plan?

Hi there, yeah it's weird, on my nvidia shield downstairs I get 4k badge but on the panasonic I just see the hdr badge and from research that is only 1080p.

[The Beast Within]

How are those with projectors finding these players? Am thinking of picking up the UB820, and I have the Benq W1700/HT2550 projector. Currently using the Panasonic DMP UB400. I'd assume with the low nits on my projector that this player would be of benefit... Any advice or thoughts appreciated!

[cjake]

Originally Posted by elvis1608

Can anyone shed any light why I'm not getting the 4k badge on netflix? I'm getting 4k with prime but not Netflix?

I found that I only get Netflix 4K if I have my UB820 set to 4K60 4:4:4. If I set it to 4K60 4:2:0, then I get 1080p.

Some displays can't handle 4K60 4:2:2 12-bit which is what the UB820 will output when the UB820 is set to 4K60 4:4:4. In that case you might be stuck with 1080p.

I don't know why Netflix App won't output 4K60 4:2:0 10-bit HDR for those displays.