Panasonic UB820/UB9000 4K UHD Blu-ray player

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by Robert Zohn

Very nice analysis Geoff!

When you time permits can you give us your take on the video processing for FHD/SDR and UHD/HDR compared to your OPPO player.

The analysis isn't over yet! [Massive groan from the audience] I emailed Ryan about his test patterns not having a greyscale sweep in different flavours of nits re: mastering levels and he replied saying "yes there are!". Under the Miscellaneous Test Patterns there's a selection of sweeps mastered for 1K, 4K and 10K nits, the middle one being EXACTLY what I'm after so I was able to proceed with checking out what the Optimiser does on my TV in those circumstances.

My previous estimations of nit numbers with what the Medium and Super modes would measure were badly off because I was using the Basic 1K nit readings as reference, but because the Basic setting itself will react differently to a 4K nit sweep (which I realised just before running the sweep) then my estimations were wrong. In each case the Optimiser is maintaining the luminance of the source up to 50% (roughly 100 nits) and then mapping the rest into that smoother upwards curve. Red is the untouched HDR luminance for reference, yellow is the respective optimised curve.

Note the differences between the Basic settings when given the same patterns with different mastering metadata, the 1K nit version peaks at about 1200 nits while the 4K nit is about 900 nits, and the rest of the range from 50% upwards has dropped accordingly in the 4K nit reading. (There are no Medium or Super 1K nit graphs because they are reading the same as the 'untouched' HDR curve, i.e. no mapping is being applied when Optimised.)

As can be seen, the 90% target (4000 nits) with the Super Optimised 4K nit reading hits just under 1400 nits, so any such content *should* be capable of being mapped by my TV's inherent 1500-nit roll-off in my calibrated Cinema Pro mode...but it's not. And I've given up trying to figure that one out, though the most obvious answer would be that in real-world terms the TV's clipping starts out well below 1500 nits.

Basic Optimised, 1K nit mastering metadata:



Basic Optimised, 4K nit mastering metadata:



Medium Optimised, 4K nit mastering metadata:



Super Optimised, 4K nit mastering metadata:

[Geoff D]

Oh, and Ryan just told me that he's going to add different nit metadata versions of the white clipping patterns in the next update to his test pattern suite. Those will provide a much simpler visual aid as to how much more information the Optimiser is pulling down.

[ray0414]

In the audio settings from the home menu, the settings default to: Bitstream, Bitstream, auto. Is this correct or should something be changed?

[MEB]

Originally Posted by ray0414

In the audio settings from the home menu, the settings default to: Bitstream, Bitstream, auto. Is this correct or should something be changed?

If your receiver can decode all of the modern digital audio encodes (DTS-HD, DTS:X, TrueHD, Dolby ATMOS, etc.) then you want those settings to be:

Bitstream
Bitstream
Off

If you don't turn off the secondary audio then all of the advanced encodes get sent to the receiver as either Dolby Digital or standard DTS.

Mark

[Kris Deering]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

I've been testing various discs and whatnot, will chime in with more thoughts when I've got them refined a bit more. One super weird-ass thing to whet your appetites is that the Dolby Vision performance is DIFFERENT between the OPPO and the Panny, at least in how my TV interprets it.

With the exact same picture settings on the ZD9 across the two HDMI inputs I'm using (making sure to use the 600MHz HDMI 2 & 3 sockets for the respective players, just for argument's sake) then the Panasonic is presenting a brighter DV image that clips quite a bit more of the highlight range, while the OPPO is noticeably dimmer in comparison but reveals >4000-nit highlight information.

While I can adjust the contrast on the TV upwards when playing the OPPO to achieve the same effect of the Panny, i.e. trading off highlight clipping for luminance, if I try to do the reverse with the Panny and lower the TV's contrast to sacrifice luminance for more highlights then there's nothing else there in the Panny's DV signal - even though that unresolved highlight detail is clearly there in both the underlying HDR10 image and the OPPO's DV output. So, at first glance, the Panny appears to be clipping the Dolby Vision output at source which is exceedingly ironic for a player that's built its reputation around its 'HDR Optimisation' credentials.

Couple things here, and you may have done this in later pages but I haven't read that far.

For the Panny, make sure HDR Optimizer is OFF. Also make sure in the option>picture page that you have the dynamic range slider to default (0) to make sure you are comparing apples to apples. You don't want the Panny doing anything to the DV stream as we already know the Oppo isn't. That is the only way to ensure they are apples to apples comparison.

If you've already done this, it is certainly worth investigating more.

[Cortiz]

I recently bought a Sony A8F. (2018 Oled model). I currently have an Oppo 203 and I Sony X1000es. Will I get any additional benefits picture wise by getting a Panny 820/9000 to go with this TV?

Thanks

[elwaylite]

It will preserve some highlights that the sony may clip. I also prefer the menu's on the panny, and the controls you have over HLG, HDR10+, DV.

What I did was sell my 203 for twice the cost of an 820 (almost), buy the 820 and pocket the money.

[bwcgrx]

Does anyone have any experience using the UB820 with one of the TCL P or 6 series sets? I currently own the TCL 55" P605. Some HDR titles have black crush and very bright whites. Night scenes in Harry Potter and Batman can be particularly problematic. This is with local dimming turned on and HDR set to dark. I can alleviate some of this by turning HDR up to the normal or bright settings however I loose some of that nice inky black that this set can produce. This is through a LG UP870 UHD Player.

I was hoping that the tone mapping may help regarding this particular set does not rank highly in Nits. I know it may not make much sense pairing a lower end UHD set with a premium UHD player but I don't plan on the TCL being my primary set for more than another year or so.

[Geoff D]

Some movies are not mastered with deep inky blacks, and if you're setting up the image to achieve that on one set of movies then it will inevitably clash with the different mastering of another set of movies.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by Kris Deering

Couple things here, and you may have done this in later pages but I haven't read that far.

For the Panny, make sure HDR Optimizer is OFF. Also make sure in the option>picture page that you have the dynamic range slider to default (0) to make sure you are comparing apples to apples. You don't want the Panny doing anything to the DV stream as we already know the Oppo isn't. That is the only way to ensure they are apples to apples comparison.

If you've already done this, it is certainly worth investigating more.

I have done all this. Double triple checked it before posting. Optimiser - not that you can even access it in Dolby Vision mode because all the in-play picture settings are disabled - is set to OFF prior to playing a DV disc. Similarly, the dynamic range slider cannot be accessed during DV playback but I made sure it was on its default before playing a DV disc.

I have tried all four of the 'tv select' modes, given someone's insistence earlier in the thread that these modes affect the output regardless of the Optimiser being on or off. They do not make a difference in either case, neither affecting the DV nor general non-Optimised output as that person claimed.

[Clark Burk]

Agreed, DV takes away most of your options.

[Kris Deering]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

I have done all this. Double triple checked it before posting. Optimiser - not that you can even access it in Dolby Vision mode because all the in-play picture settings are disabled - is set to OFF prior to playing a DV disc. Similarly, the dynamic range slider cannot be accessed during DV playback but I made sure it was on its default before playing a DV disc.

I have tried all four of the 'tv select' modes, given someone's insistence earlier in the thread that these modes affect the output regardless of the Optimiser being on or off. They do not make a difference in either case, neither affecting the DV nor general non-Optimised output as that person claimed.

I've forwarded your findings for DV to the engineer I work with at Panasonic. I'll let you know his comments.

[elwaylite]

I was testing out new atmos speakers today and the 9000, and one disc I played had a peak of 2968 nits on the disc, but the output was shown as max 1000 nits (OLED mode) using the extended playback info.

[Kris Deering]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

I have done all this. Double triple checked it before posting. Optimiser - not that you can even access it in Dolby Vision mode because all the in-play picture settings are disabled - is set to OFF prior to playing a DV disc. Similarly, the dynamic range slider cannot be accessed during DV playback but I made sure it was on its default before playing a DV disc.

I have tried all four of the 'tv select' modes, given someone's insistence earlier in the thread that these modes affect the output regardless of the Optimiser being on or off. They do not make a difference in either case, neither affecting the DV nor general non-Optimised output as that person claimed.

Here is the comment I got from their lead engineer:

"Dolby Vision’s processing and performance depends on Dolby completely.
It is certificated by Dolby, but we don’t know the specific behavior"

So it sounds like they just put the code in and that is all. No control over the outcome. Wonder if the code is different between the two players based on updates? Hard to say.

[elwaylite]

Just like how the ATV is dimmer than other devices. Dumb.

[Kris Deering]

Originally Posted by elwaylite

I was testing out new atmos speakers today and the 9000, and one disc I played had a peak of 2968 nits on the disc, but the output was shown as max 1000 nits (OLED mode) using the extended playback info.

That is correct. The optimizer is forcing the metadata to match the display selected. It is then mapping the HDR signal into a 1000 target display luminance. This is expected behavior.

[elwaylite]

Originally Posted by Kris Deering

That is correct. The optimizer is forcing the metadata to match the display selected. It is then mapping the HDR signal into a 1000 target display luminance. This is expected behavior.

Understood, just an observation. I like the second window, kinda neat knowing it’s a 4000 nit disc but the peak is 2938 or whatever, and then seeing what the 9000 is going to optimize the output down to depending on you display setting in the menu.

[Clark Burk]

It’s always good when you know what your playback device is doing. The more info we are provided the better. In fact if you have ever seen a MadVDR display then you know the amount of data that is available as a movie streams.

[elwaylite]

Oh yeah. Was real happy when Oppo and Panasonic brought the more detailed playback info. Nice to see source info and output info.

[Kris Deering]

Originally Posted by elwaylite

Understood, just an observation. I like the second window, kinda neat knowing it’s a 4000 nit disc but the peak is 2938 or whatever, and then seeing what the 9000 is going to optimize the output down to depending on you display setting in the menu.

So in this case, the BU9000 is going to tone map to a peak of 2938 (clip point) for a an overall display brightness of whatever is set in the display type menu (so long as Optimizer is ON, doesn't do this if Optimizer OFF). It makes the metadata match the display type selected so that the display used only tone maps to that point (if it uses the metadata at all). If the display doesn't use the metadata it doesn't really matter because the HDR signal has already been optimized for that peak luminance value.

The one thing that is disappointing about the HDR output when using the HDR Optimizer is that you can't force a clip point. With the SDR2020 output, if you turn the Optimizer OFF, it defaults to 1000 nits. That works really well for titles like Sicario which have 0 for MaxCLL but 4000 nits for Display max. So in the HDR output case, you're tone mapping to 4000 nits and the image will look a bit drab and dark. But the real MaxCLL is just over 1000, so with the SDR output, it looks fantastic because you can force it to a closer true nit value. This actually works really well for quite a few titles out there.