Panasonic UB820/UB9000 4K UHD Blu-ray player

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by pbz06

In my extensive testing comparing A to B between DV and HDR10+Optimizer, in every case the DV produced a better image and resolved more detail. I think the "too bright" is not accurate..how do we know the Oppo isn't dimming?

I have Sony A9G

I do think that the OPPO's version of the Low Latency (Sony) DV mode is noticeably dimmer, but while the Panny's LL DV is brighter it DOES clip highlight detail past a certain point which the OPPO does not, say 2000 nits or thereabouts. Not every movie will have highlights at or even near that level which is why it isn't a massively obvious issue on many DV discs, but it is there nonetheless.

Why can't we just have both in one machine? Seems like that was too much to ask from Dolby, they really should have tested the LL mode far more thoroughly before sending it out in this botched state.

Originally Posted by Getsum

Those are my settings too. But i'm only noticing when there is an extremely bright flash. For example Mad Max Fury Road when there is a lightning strike. But it looks better with it off, because the with the optimizer on the lighting is toned down far too much. And some of the explosions i lose some detail in the fireballs. Is the optimizer only noticeable a small amount of time in the average HDR movie?

That's one of the reasons why I don't like using the Optimiser, it dims the highlights too much so while you retain the information you don't get the realism from the brightness.

[pbz06]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

I do think that the OPPO's version of the Low Latency (Sony) DV mode is noticeably dimmer, but while the Panny's LL DV is brighter it DOES clip highlight detail past a certain point which the OPPO does not, say 2000 nits or thereabouts. Not every movie will have highlights at or even near that level which is why it isn't a massively obvious issue on many DV discs, but it is there nonetheless.

Why can't we just have both in one machine? Seems like that was too much to ask from Dolby, they really should have tested the LL mode far more thoroughly before sending it out in this botched state.


That's one of the reasons why I don't like using the Optimiser, it dims the highlights too much so while you retain the information you don't get the realism from the brightness.

That's the annoying part of Dolby Vision. It's a standard, but between every combination of gear (sony, LG, oppo, panny, appletv, firetv, smart app, low latency, player led etc.) Seems like it produces slightly different results. It still looks great at least.

Either way, I am with you on the Optimizer especially when using on a high luminance TV. So little content is in the high nit range it's better to just let it clip a little keep that impactful Brightness. You barely notice what's clipping. I do love it on the OLED though because it's like 3 times less bright anyway, and not as noticeable so it's neat to see more detail.

[panasonicst60]

Originally Posted by pbz06

That's the annoying part of Dolby Vision. It's a standard, but between every combination of gear (sony, LG, oppo, panny, appletv, firetv, smart app, low latency, player led etc.) Seems like it produces slightly different results. It still looks great at least.

Either way, I am with you on the Optimizer especially when using on a high luminance TV. So little content is in the high nit range it's better to just let it clip a little keep that impactful Brightness. You barely notice what's clipping. I do love it on the OLED though because it's like 3 times less bright anyway, and not as noticeable so it's neat to see more detail.

You need to adjust the tone curve white to dial it in perfectly to your set. You'll get no blown out highlights or too dim.

[pbz06]

Originally Posted by panasonicst60

You need to adjust the tone curve white to dial it in perfectly to your set. You'll get no blown out highlights or too dim.

I don't have anyway of knowing if it's too dim or too bright. So how would I know what to adjust and by how much?

[panasonicst60]

Originally Posted by pbz06

I don't have anyway of knowing if it's too dim or too bright. So how would I know what to adjust and by how much?

You need the spears and munsil 4k test patterns

[sschen]

I hope the following is an appropriate question to ask on this thread.

Does anyone know if the player uses the same laser to read 4K disk and Blu-ray disk? My player has stopped reading both 4K and BD last night. The only thing I have done is unplugging power to the unit for half a minute, and trying again to no avail. So I am trying to work out what is wrong with the unit.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by pbz06

That's the annoying part of Dolby Vision. It's a standard, but between every combination of gear (sony, LG, oppo, panny, appletv, firetv, smart app, low latency, player led etc.) Seems like it produces slightly different results. It still looks great at least.

Either way, I am with you on the Optimizer especially when using on a high luminance TV. So little content is in the high nit range it's better to just let it clip a little keep that impactful Brightness. You barely notice what's clipping. I do love it on the OLED though because it's like 3 times less bright anyway, and not as noticeable so it's neat to see more detail.

That's exactly it, that because projektors and most OLEDs really don't get that bright - though they certainly have other advantages of their own - then the loss of the specular brightness doesn't really matter, but on something like the Zed it makes high-nit content look so much duller - which is what DV (on the OPPO) is doing anyway! And for some titles I think DV is essential, botched brightness and all, because of how the Full Enhancement Layer (FEL) arrangement rebuilds the image and improves what can be horrendous compression on the HDR10 layer.

As for the tone curve, how does that work? It's not average brightness that's the problem because the point of the Optimiser is that it keeps 50% of the signal i.e. 100 nits preserved and then starts to map it the further out it goes according to what display setting is used (High, Medium etc). The problem is that highlights lose their comparative lustre, rendering out a much more linear SDR-like curve for the image. So adjusting the tone curve may well restore more brightness but if it raises it on a global level then bringing back the highlight luminance will make the average picture level look too bright and I don't want that either.

[SpinDoctor]

Speaking of which: I’ve been experimenting with the HDR Optimizer on my OLED, nothing above my pay grade, just finding content that it effects, pausing on various scenes, and flipping it on and off to see what my eyes preferred. One of the titles where the Optimizer’s effects were most pronounced was Pacific Rim; and having it on definitely robbed the image of some of its punch. Every highlight looked much more dim/dull with the Optimizer on. Yes, i could see a touch more detail, but there’s most definitely a trade off. And i feel like i’m losing more than i’m gaining.

[eddievanhalen]

I started using the HDR Optimizer for everu UHD BD title I watched when I got my 420 back in April. It's not the lost of punch on specular highlights wat put me off,it was that discs that I new had perfect "bleach" whites (the Navy uniforms on Battleship for example) looked yellowish, and I really like those bright perfect whites HDR gets so I disabled it.
I now only use it with titles that I know are mastered at 4000 nits, it does makes a difference there, but with 1000 nits mastered titles, I don't useit anymore.

[SpinDoctor]

Originally Posted by eddievanhalen

I started using the HDR Optimizer for everu UHD BD title I watched when I got my 420 back in April. It's not the lost of punch on specular highlights wat put me off,it was that discs that I new had perfect "bleach" whites (the Navy uniforms on Battleship for example) looked yellowish, and I really like those bright perfect whites HDR gets so I disabled it.
I now only use it with titles that I know are mastered at 4000 nits, it does makes a difference there, but with 1000 nits mastered titles, I don't useit anymore.

Interesting, I really didn’t see much of an effect on the 1000 nit mastered titles that i tried the Optimizer on. With the 4000 nit movies, it was obvious. I’m still playing with the feature, so i’m not writing it off by any means, I just didn’t like the fact that it dulled the highlights on a few flicks i tried it on. Felt kind of counterproductive to the HDR experience. Regardless, the 820 still puts out the best HDR image out of all the other players/devices i’ve tried.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by eddievanhalen

I started using the HDR Optimizer for everu UHD BD title I watched when I got my 420 back in April. It's not the lost of punch on specular highlights wat put me off,it was that discs that I new had perfect "bleach" whites (the Navy uniforms on Battleship for example) looked yellowish, and I really like those bright perfect whites HDR gets so I disabled it.
I now only use it with titles that I know are mastered at 4000 nits, it does makes a difference there, but with 1000 nits mastered titles, I don't useit anymore.

Are you sure that's nothing to do with how your colour temp is set up for HDR in general?

[pbz06]

HDR Optimizer doesn't do anything for 1,000 nit content. There's literally no difference when flicking between on and off.

It also doesn't affect colors...

[Geoff D]

If you had it set to 500 nits or below then it would make a difference but yeah, if it's set to Medium/High, Super High or OLED then it will literally do nothing to a 1000-nit mastered disc (apart from add a touch of banding).

[eddievanhalen]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Are you sure that's nothing to do with how your colour temp is set up for HDR in general?

I think I am, all I know is that when I used the HDR Optimizer set up at mid to high luminance LED with discs that are mastered at 1000 nits like Battleship those "bleach" whites turnerd yellowish,it's a subtle effect but it's there. If I turn HDR Optimizer off I get the proper "bleach" and shiny whites that I like. Not a big deal as my Samsung set doesn't need the HDR Optimizer with 1000 nits discs.

[SpinDoctor]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

If you had it set to 500 nits or below then it would make a difference but yeah, if it's set to Medium/High, Super High or OLED then it will literally do nothing to a 1000-nit mastered disc (apart from add a touch of banding).

That’s what i was assuming, any 1000 nit content i tried it on yielded no visual difference to my eye. Now on the 4000 nit discs, it was obvious even to an amateur like myself.

[Geoff D]

I caved in and just rebought the 820 'cause I wanted to test something re: the Low Latency DV on the ZD9, and the addition of the MaxCLL/FALL readings was something I've always wanted to have. (Didn't buy the 820 new though, picked it up for £210 used on avf classifieds.)

Still very annoyed that Panasonic didn't put it onto the 420 even though the HDR Optimiser is identical between them, but now that I've rebought the 820 they'll either add the metadata reader to the 420 as well or OPPO will finally come up with another firmware update for the 203/205 which adds this feature.

I've just gone through 50 discs to check the metadata on them, that's about as wild as my Tuesday nights get. Or any nights, for that matter...

[sapiendut]

That’s a shitton more exciting than any day of my life.

[eddievanhalen]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

I caved in and just rebought the 820 'cause I wanted to test something re: the Low Latency DV on the ZD9, and the addition of the MaxCLL/FALL readings was something I've always wanted to have. (Didn't buy the 820 new though, picked it up for £210 used on avf classifieds.)

Still very annoyed that Panasonic didn't put it onto the 420 even though the HDR Optimiser is identical between them, but now that I've rebought the 820 they'll either add the metadata reader to the 420 as well or OPPO will finally come up with another firmware update for the 203/205 which adds this feature.

I've just gone through 50 discs to check the metadata on them, that's about as wild as my Tuesday nights get. Or any nights, for that matter...

And you found something unexpected on those 50 discs? Are many of them mastered at 4000 nits?

[DJR662]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

I caved in and just rebought the 820 'cause I wanted to test something re: the Low Latency DV on the ZD9, and the addition of the MaxCLL/FALL readings was something I've always wanted to have. (Didn't buy the 820 new though, picked it up for £210 used on avf classifieds.)

Still very annoyed that Panasonic didn't put it onto the 420 even though the HDR Optimiser is identical between them, but now that I've rebought the 820 they'll either add the metadata reader to the 420 as well or OPPO will finally come up with another firmware update for the 203/205 which adds this feature.

I've just gone through 50 discs to check the metadata on them, that's about as wild as my Tuesday nights get. Or any nights, for that matter...

If the metadata is incorrect (The Meg I believe for example?) or incomplete, what kind of effect would that have on the picture when using the Optimizer? I remember Kris Deering also mentioning Sicario with regards to its metadata.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by eddievanhalen

And you found something unexpected on those 50 discs? Are many of them mastered at 4000 nits?

I just wanted to add certain movies to the list and double-check the metadata on some others. I did find some unexpected things though, like the German UHD of Only the Brave has 2020 primaries instead of P3 and the MaxCLL peak is over 5000 nits. Lots of Sony movies go well over 4000 nits for MaxCLL, contrary to their 4000-nit mastering display level, but we knew that already.

Originally Posted by DJR662

If the metadata is incorrect (The Meg I believe for example?) or incomplete, what kind of effect would that have on the picture when using the Optimizer? I remember Kris Deering also mentioning Sicario with regards to its metadata.

Not really concerned about the Optimiser per se as it's an imperfect solution to an imperfect situation but from looking at The Meg I wonder how "wrong" it actually is. MaxCLL is 4000 nits - from Andreas' cap comparison and madVR analysis it doesn't go much higher than that - and MaxFALL is 1193 nits which, again, I can believe because it is BRIGHT like a mofo.

Not saying that Kris isn't correct in saying 'be wary of metadata as gospel' as there are certain things that can skew an analysis result for sure, but for the most part the numbers seem spot on to me, certain oddities aside. For example Shaun of the Dead and Hellboy II both read as 400 MaxCLL and 13 (!) MaxFALL which is patently incorrect, either on behalf of the people inputting the metadata or the actual Panny's readings of it. I've counted four Disney UHDs that have identical MaxCLL and FALL figures, all three Caps and Thor 2 have 1004 nits CLL and 211 nits FALL.