Panasonic UB820/UB9000 4K UHD Blu-ray player

[bigmoorer]

Thinking of upgrading my UB700 to the UB820 as my TV has recently been updated to support HDR10+.

Is it worth going with the UB820 over the UB450 for the HDR optimiser if my TV is already has good tone mapping? I have the EX750 and the AVForums review says "However the good tone mapping meant that the EX750 was at least able to correctly show test patterns up to 4000 nits without clipping, which means that although the specular highlights might not be as bright, you aren't missing any detail."

I can’t say I have noticed any clipping so I’m thinking it’s probably not worth the extra £100 to me but not sure if I’m missing something else that the player has over the UB450 other than the unit itself looking much nicer.

[bnmdjm]

Originally Posted by bigmoorer

Thinking of upgrading my UB700 to the UB820 as my TV has recently been updated to support HDR10+.

Is it worth going with the UB820 over the UB450 for the HDR optimiser if my TV is already has good tone mapping? I have the EX750 and the AVForums review says "However the good tone mapping meant that the EX750 was at least able to correctly show test patterns up to 4000 nits without clipping, which means that although the specular highlights might not be as bright, you aren't missing any detail."

I can’t say I have noticed any clipping so I’m thinking it’s probably not worth the extra £100 to me but not sure if I’m missing something else that the player has over the UB450 other than the unit itself looking much nicer.

I just upgraded from the UB700 to the UB820 and let's just say I'm not going back! I had a big gripe with the "grain" in Toy Story 4 UHD shimmering on the toy's faces and in the background, and with identical settings, cables and inputs on my LG B7a just swapping out the players made a significant impact on this minor issue. Overall, it really does seem to resolve film grain better and that along with better disc playback (more stable, no skipping, freezing or jerking) are the two most noticeable upgrades for me so far.

In my limited testing of the Optimizer, I've actually decided I'm not too big of a fan of it, because as many others have noted, while you do gain back some blown out (clipped) highlights, it feels like you lose the impact of the HDR and to me the trade off isn't worth it. If a building was exploding in front of me, I'm pretty sure my first thought wouldn't be "wow, look at the detail in that fire ball coming towards me" but would be closer to "holy crap, that's bright and I'm about to die!". I feel I get closer to the later experience with the Optimizer turned off.

[bigmoorer]

Originally Posted by bnmdjm

I just upgraded from the UB700 to the UB820 and let's just say I'm not going back! I had a big gripe with the "grain" in Toy Story 4 UHD shimmering on the toy's faces and in the background, and with identical settings, cables and inputs on my LG B7a just swapping out the players made a significant impact on this minor issue. Overall, it really does seem to resolve film grain better and that along with better disc playback (more stable, no skipping, freezing or jerking) are the two most noticeable upgrades for me so far.

In my limited testing of the Optimizer, I've actually decided I'm not too big of a fan of it, because as many others have noted, while you do gain back some blown out (clipped) highlights, it feels like you lose the impact of the HDR and to me the trade off isn't worth it. If a building was exploding in front of me, I'm pretty sure my first thought wouldn't be "wow, look at the detail in that fire ball coming towards me" but would be closer to "holy crap, that's bright and I'm about to die!". I feel I get closer to the later experience with the Optimizer turned off.

That’s another reason for the upgrade. The freezing and skipping on certain discs. Have had discs delivered with the slightest light scratch and the UB700 is so sensitive, that it’s not having a ball of it.

That’s good to read that it’s refined the picture even further. I just read the UB820 has wifi, which the UB450 doesn’t so that’s another thing for me to consider too.

My TV isn’t the greatest for HDR (only about 500 nits) but Pacific Rim still makes my jaw drop every time. I’ve not noticed any clipping so it does seem like the HDR optimiser wouldn’t be of any use to me anyway as my TV seems to be dealing with it itself. (Up to 4000 nits anyway).

Think I might just go for it.

[Geoff D]

The 820 is definitely faster in operation than my 420, not just with discs booting up but even the responsiveness of the player's setup menus and stuff like that (though it's still a fraction sluggish when accessing the picture controls during HDR playback). I've noticed that the animation on Warners' UHD menu bars isn't all that smooth on the Pannys, though that's not some major complaint but merely an observation. Older discs aren't so bad but The Shining's menu bars are a bit herky jerky whereas they're smooth as buttah on the OPPO 203.

As for the Optimiser, while I rarely use it for just compressing highlight detail (as it really does remove too much brightness in the speculars) it's come in very handy for taming the mega bright HDR on many Sony 35mm remasters. I really don't like the way that Sony handle them for the most part as the HDR ramps up the grain far too much, and when combined with mediocre compression they can look very untidy e.g. Glory. So I've taken to using my '4000 nit mode' on the ZD9 which reduces contrast and luminance when viewing these discs to make them more palatable, but the Optimiser can also do the same thing without reducing the luminance on a global level as my TV viewing mode does. It tamps down the extreme brightness in the brighter portions of the image where most of the poorly rendered grain is residing, making the grain seem much finer and less 'in your face', so this is one area where the SDR-esque re-rendering of the image that the Optimiser does is actually ideal for me. YMMV.

[DJR662]

Originally Posted by bigmoorer

That’s another reason for the upgrade. The freezing and skipping on certain discs. Have had discs delivered with the slightest light scratch and the UB700 is so sensitive, that it’s not having a ball of it.

That’s good to read that it’s refined the picture even further. I just read the UB820 has wifi, which the UB450 doesn’t so that’s another thing for me to consider too.

My TV isn’t the greatest for HDR (only about 500 nits) but Pacific Rim still makes my jaw drop every time. I’ve not noticed any clipping so it does seem like the HDR optimiser wouldn’t be of any use to me anyway as my TV seems to be dealing with it itself. (Up to 4000 nits anyway).

Think I might just go for it.

Did you check the very beginning of the second-last chapter? It starts with a shot of the ocean with a bright sky in the background. Would be interesting to see how much highlight information regarding the clouds is visible then.

Originally Posted by Geoff D

The 820 is definitely faster in operation than my 420, not just with discs booting up but even the responsiveness of the player's setup menus and stuff like that (though it's still a fraction sluggish when accessing the picture controls during HDR playback). I've noticed that the animation on Warners' UHD menu bars isn't all that smooth on the Pannys, though that's not some major complaint but merely an observation. Older discs aren't so bad but The Shining's menu bars are a bit herky jerky whereas they're smooth as buttah on the OPPO 203.

As for the Optimiser, while I rarely use it for just compressing highlight detail (as it really does remove too much brightness in the speculars) it's come in very handy for taming the mega bright HDR on many Sony 35mm remasters. I really don't like the way that Sony handle them for the most part as the HDR ramps up the grain far too much, and when combined with mediocre compression they can look very untidy e.g. Glory. So I've taken to using my '4000 nit mode' on the ZD9 which reduces contrast and luminance when viewing these discs to make them more palatable, but the Optimiser can also do the same thing without reducing the luminance on a global level as my TV viewing mode does. It tamps down the extreme brightness in the brighter portions of the image where most of the poorly rendered grain is residing, making the grain seem much finer and less 'in your face', so this is one area where the SDR-esque re-rendering of the image that the Optimiser does is actually ideal for me. YMMV.

Damn, and I thought the 820 was sluggish and unresponsive at times already. Can't imagine what the 420 would be like then.

Thanks for the tip on using the Optimizer for certain Sony catalogue titles. Will try that next time I'm going to watch one of them.

[bigmoorer]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

The 820 is definitely faster in operation than my 420, not just with discs booting up but even the responsiveness of the player's setup menus and stuff like that (though it's still a fraction sluggish when accessing the picture controls during HDR playback). I've noticed that the animation on Warners' UHD menu bars isn't all that smooth on the Pannys, though that's not some major complaint but merely an observation. Older discs aren't so bad but The Shining's menu bars are a bit herky jerky whereas they're smooth as buttah on the OPPO 203.

As for the Optimiser, while I rarely use it for just compressing highlight detail (as it really does remove too much brightness in the speculars) it's come in very handy for taming the mega bright HDR on many Sony 35mm remasters. I really don't like the way that Sony handle them for the most part as the HDR ramps up the grain far too much, and when combined with mediocre compression they can look very untidy e.g. Glory. So I've taken to using my '4000 nit mode' on the ZD9 which reduces contrast and luminance when viewing these discs to make them more palatable, but the Optimiser can also do the same thing without reducing the luminance on a global level as my TV viewing mode does. It tamps down the extreme brightness in the brighter portions of the image where most of the poorly rendered grain is residing, making the grain seem much finer and less 'in your face', so this is one area where the SDR-esque re-rendering of the image that the Optimiser does is actually ideal for me. YMMV.

Thanks Geoff. My TV doesn’t seem to let me turn on/off any settings regarding the tone mapping. Seems it’s just always on. I did wonder if it was called "HDR Brightness Enhancer" but that seems to just make the image look brighter. Doesn’t effect details in any meaningful way from what I can tell. It does seem to wash out the colours a tad though.

Have just gone for the 820 anyway. I figured the newer UB450 may be more sluggish than my 700 based on what you said, plus the lack on wifi on the 450 could be annoying. Also seems Panasonic have put a cheaper remote in the package too.

Originally Posted by DJR662

Did you check the very beginning of the second-last chapter? It starts with a shot of the ocean with a bright sky in the background. Would be interesting to see how much highlight information regarding the clouds is visible then.



Damn, and I thought the 820 was sluggish and unresponsive at times already. Can't imagine what the 420 would be like then.

Thanks for the tip on using the Optimizer for certain Sony catalogue titles. Will try that next time I'm going to watch one of them.

Looks fine. Can see details in all of the clouds on screen. Tried to snap a photo but my camera makes it look like detail is lost so isn’t giving a true representation of what is actually on the screen.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by bigmoorer

Thanks Geoff. My TV doesn’t seem to let me turn on/off any settings regarding the tone mapping. Seems it’s just always on. I did wonder if it was called "HDR Brightness Enhancer" but that seems to just make the image look brighter. Doesn’t effect details in any meaningful way from what I can tell. It does seem to wash out the colours a tad though.

Have just gone for the 820 anyway. I figured the newer UB450 may be more sluggish than my 700 based on what you said, plus the lack on wifi on the 450 could be annoying. Also seems Panasonic have put a cheaper remote in the package too.

Yeah I don't mean tone mapping with regards to any kind of one-push setting that the TV natively has, I just call it a '4000 nit mode' in quotes because I've set it up for that, there's nothing on the TV relating to it.

Basically my TV ignores metadata and just presents everything with a fixed tone curve peaking at about 1800 nits with the proper HDR brightness curve dialled in, this is fine for the vast majority of discs as it doesn't need to tone map them at all, but any content that peaks higher than that needs to be mapped down. So the way I do it on the TV is to reduce the contrast setting which in turn increases the amount of highlight detail visible because it's reducing the clipping in the whites, I used a test pattern to resolve about 4000 nits which is why I refer to it as such. I also store it under a different scene select preset to my main calibrated HDR mode so I can just flick between them.

This has the effect of reducing global HDR luminance by at least a third BUT it retains the fundamental structure of HDR's response curve, so highlights still look brighter relative to the average picture level around them. But the Optimiser flattens out the steep HDR curve into a much gentler and more linear raising of brightness, so while you maintain the APL where it should be it also reduces the effective 'distance' between that average level and the brighter speculars. Thusly the Optimiser is great for displays that can't go high for peak brightness and/or can't display big variances in luminance for more than a split second because you're not going to notice anything amiss, but on a Sony LightCannon™ it's more damaging to the impact of the HDR.

For any kind of contemporary HDR content then I'm not a fan of the Optimiser for those reasons, particularly because the very mild banding it can induce is made more obvious on stuff shot to look digital and very 'clean', like on The Meg in the underwater shots for example. But when it comes to Sony's typically overbaked HDR remasters for older 35mm stuff then the Optimiser is an excellent fit because making it look less aggressively HDR-like is exactly what I'm after, and the heavy grain usually dithers any of the banding added by the Optimiser anyway.

[Kris Deering]

Originally Posted by DJR662

If the metadata is incorrect (The Meg I believe for example?) or incomplete, what kind of effect would that have on the picture when using the Optimizer? I remember Kris Deering also mentioning Sicario with regards to its metadata.

I don't recall ever saying anything about the metadata in The Meg as being incorrect. The metadata for Sicario is definitely incorrect (a lot of the early Lionsgate titles were) though. MaxCLL is just a touch above 1000 for that one.

I use a Lumagen Radiance Pro for my tone mapping solution, it is scene by scene tone mapping but it adaptive frame by frame as needed. Metadata is not an issue anymore and the Radiance does a fantastic job. In fact I just had Stacey Spears over about a week ago to demonstrate how it did with his demo montage. Stacey seemed very impressed not only with the tone mapping but with how good HDR can look on a projector in a dedicated theater environment.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by Kris Deering

I don't recall ever saying anything about the metadata in The Meg as being incorrect. The metadata for Sicario is definitely incorrect (a lot of the early Lionsgate titles were) though. MaxCLL is just a touch above 1000 for that one.

I use a Lumagen Radiance Pro for my tone mapping solution, it is scene by scene tone mapping but it adaptive frame by frame as needed. Metadata is not an issue anymore and the Radiance does a fantastic job. In fact I just had Stacey Spears over about a week ago to demonstrate how it did with his demo montage. Stacey seemed very impressed not only with the tone mapping but with how good HDR can look on a projector in a dedicated theater environment.

I also seem to distinctly remember you saying that the metadata on The Meg was wrong. A very quick search (so quick that I've edited this post and yet it won't show up as an edit ) reveals this:

Originally Posted by Kris Deering

Some insight into The Meg. This movie's metadata state that MaxCLL is around 1800 when in reality it is closer to 4400. So any display that is using the metadata to tone map will end up with obvious clipping/contrast issues. The frame average on this is one of the highest I've ever seen too, so trying to compress it down will result in issues as well. This title would be served better by displays that ignore the metadata altogether. Even something like the Panasonic UB820 would have issues with this one because it uses the MaxCLL for its tone map, and in this case it is wrong (another recent example of this is Rampage).

If you have a way to make the display ignore the metadata I would suggest that and setup the display to optimize for about 4000 nits.

[DJR662]

Originally Posted by Kris Deering

I don't recall ever saying anything about the metadata in The Meg as being incorrect. The metadata for Sicario is definitely incorrect (a lot of the early Lionsgate titles were) though. MaxCLL is just a touch above 1000 for that one.

I use a Lumagen Radiance Pro for my tone mapping solution, it is scene by scene tone mapping but it adaptive frame by frame as needed. Metadata is not an issue anymore and the Radiance does a fantastic job. In fact I just had Stacey Spears over about a week ago to demonstrate how it did with his demo montage. Stacey seemed very impressed not only with the tone mapping but with how good HDR can look on a projector in a dedicated theater environment.

The Lumagen is out of my league, but I'm quite happy with how my 385ES performs in conjunction with the 820. I'm using SDR2020 as you suggested and have the dynamic range slider at -3 for "regular" 4K/HDR discs and at -6 for the very bright stuff like The Meg. Pretty satisfied with the results especially since I don't have a dedicated room (which is also the reason I don't want to spend too much on front projection).

[Kris Deering]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

I also seem to distinctly remember you saying that the metadata on The Meg was wrong. A very quick search (so quick that I've edited this post and yet it won't show up as an edit ) reveals this:

That's right. I was confusing DML with CLL when looking at this today. CLL is definitely over 4000.

[Getsum]

I've had the 820 for a few months now. And as a disc spinner compared to the to my xbox one s, it is big jump in picture quality no complaints there. I've just downloaded the latest update which was supposed to fix stability problems......BS! Probably once or twice a week it will throw a wobbly while i'm watching netflix. It won't connect to the internet. I have to do a factory reset which is not a big deal, but then i have to sign into netflix cause it has forgotten me. I've got netfix on the xbox and the tv but both of those options don't have DOLBY VISION and once you go DOLBY.........Plus i spent alot of money on the 820 and i'd like it to do more than play discs. Anyone else come across this problem.

P.S. The guy that designed the remote needs his head read , the netflix button next to a direction button and an internet button next to playback info button and no backlight.

[sapiendut]

There is a new update?

[DJR662]

Originally Posted by Getsum

P.S. The guy that designed the remote needs his head read , the netflix button next to a direction button and an internet button next to playback info button and no backlight.

The amount of times I accidentally pushed either the Internet or Netflix button...

Originally Posted by sapiendut

There is a new update?

I downloaded it last week, but haven't noticed any immediate chances.

[Getsum]

I was having the problem before the update. Was hoping the update would fix the problem.

[ray0414]

Originally Posted by Getsum

I've had the 820 for a few months now. And as a disc spinner compared to the to my xbox one s, it is big jump in picture quality no complaints there. I've just downloaded the latest update which was supposed to fix stability problems......BS! Probably once or twice a week it will throw a wobbly while i'm watching netflix. It won't connect to the internet. I have to do a factory reset which is not a big deal, but then i have to sign into netflix cause it has forgotten me. I've got netfix on the xbox and the tv but both of those options don't have DOLBY VISION and once you go DOLBY.........Plus i spent alot of money on the 820 and i'd like it to do more than play discs. Anyone else come across this problem.

P.S. The guy that designed the remote needs his head read , the netflix button next to a direction button and an internet button next to playback info button and no backlight.

You can buy a ub900 or ub9000 remote. Works much better.

[DJR662]

Originally Posted by ray0414

You can buy a ub900 or ub9000 remote. Works much better.

But the UB900 remote doesn't have the HDR Optimizer button though.

[evoll]

Yeah that Netflix button is the worse thing about the remote for me. It needs to be away from the up arrow button, I go into the sub menu and hit that Netflix button to many times being in a dark room watching movies. I have come close to taking pliers and pulling it out since I don't use Netflix lol. I can see the person who designed it with a evil smile saying I bet a lot of people are going to hit this hahaha.

[DJR662]

Originally Posted by evoll

Yeah that Netflix button is the worse thing about the remote for me. It needs to be away from the up arrow button, I go into the sub menu and hit that Netflix button to many times being in a dark room watching movies. I have come close to taking pliers and pulling it out since I don't use Netflix lol. I can see the person who designed it with a evil smile saying I bet a lot of people are going to hit this hahaha.

It needs to be away from being on any remote altogether.

I have a strong dislike for Netflix, so imagine how it feels when I accidentally push the Netflix button for the umpteenth time, and the Netflix startup screen comes up on my 110" projection screen. I hate when that happens.

And ofcourse all of my other TV/player remotes have that dreadful N button too.

[SpinDoctor]

Originally Posted by ray0414

You can buy a ub900 or ub9000 remote. Works much better.

Any idea where i can find a ub9000 remote? I’ve had no luck searching for one