Panasonic UB820/UB9000 4K UHD Blu-ray player

[enricoclaudio]

Originally Posted by sapiendut

I have both. They are both as good (on paper the THD of the new one is better) they just sound different and I have no preference. In fact I won’t be able to pin point the differences unless they are being A/B tested.

According to Robert Zohn, If you measure the 2-channel outputs the new ES9038Q2M: 768 kHz/32 bit 2ch DAC has 1 db lower s/n ratio and a very slightly larger dynamic tonal range than the AKM 2-channel DAC.

Not sure you can hear these minimal differences, but it is measurable.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by JackTwist

I was one of those who used that word. My deepest apologies and I will delete my account

Despite the incorrect terminology to describe the Dolby Vision layer, that is why I added a disclaimer. It is very likely the bulk of the differences could be due to how the Sony A80J tone maps the HDR10 signal. Since moving to this TV, I haven’t been using the HDR optimizer feature.

Lol, no worries. I’ve got both UHDs now so will do some comparisons.

[Raven777777]

Originally Posted by sapiendut

I have both. They are both as good (on paper the THD of the new one is better) they just sound different and I have no preference. In fact I won’t be able to pin point the differences unless they are being A/B tested.

I will decide on the original. I will listen to you when you say they are as good as each other but they just sound different. The original one is almost sold out, and I suppose I will be forever curious about it unless I buy it. If I ever want to compare the two, I could always get the newer one down the line.

[enricoclaudio]

Originally Posted by Raven777777

I will decide on the original. I will listen to you when you say they are as good as each other but they just sound different. The original one is almost sold out, and I suppose I will be forever curious about it unless I buy it. If I ever want to compare the two, I could always get the newer one down the line.

I won't be surprised if the UB9000 with AKM DACs, especially that last run made in The Czech Republic, becomes a collector item like the Oppos. And like you say, the UB9000P1K can be purchase any time in the future. I'm for sure holding on mine which I got just 3 weeks ago from Crutchfield.

Update; Crutchfield offers 60 days returns so get the one with AKM DACs from Crutchfield and the one with ESS DACs from B&H or World Wide Stereo, compare both and return the one you don't like

[Raven777777]

Originally Posted by enricoclaudio

I won't be surprised if the UB9000 with AKM DACs, especially that last run made in The Czech Republic, becomes a collector item like the Oppos. And like you say, the UB9000P1K can be purchase any time in the future. I'm for sure holding on mine which I got just 3 weeks ago from Crutchfield.

Update; Crutchfield offers 60 days returns so get the one with AKM DACs from Crutchfield and the one with ESS DACs from B&H or World Wide Stereo, compare both and return the one you don't like

I kick myself for missing the Oppos. But there was no chance I could have afforded it when it was in production. For a while I've noticed the last run version of the original ub9000 was made in the Czech Republic, as you've said. I never put serious thought into that, but are they different from the original ub9000 that were Made in China somehow?

Edit: I am guessing you meant that the Czech Republic ones are just rarer with no difference in quality compared to the original China ones, which could further its chances as a collector's item, adding to the fact that they are already the fleeting AKM DAC version.

[LordoftheRings]

Originally Posted by enricoclaudio

I won't be surprised if the UB9000 with AKM DACs, especially that last run made in The Czech Republic, becomes a collector item like the Oppos. And like you say, the UB9000P1K can be purchase any time in the future. I'm for sure holding on mine which I got just 3 weeks ago from Crutchfield.

Update; Crutchfield offers 60 days returns so get the one with AKM DACs from Crutchfield and the one with ESS DACs from B&H or World Wide Stereo, compare both and return the one you don't like

The true Collector's item goes to the Oppo 205 Only Fan Edition 5G.

[PUsokrJosh305]

Originally Posted by mkozlows

I mean taking a 2020/2021 LG or Sony OLED TV, leaving the HDR Optimizer on the Blu-ray player off, and letting the TV do its own tone-mapping. Then comparing that result to the HDR Optimizer-on double-tone-mapped version.

(I'm specifically referring to non-projector use cases here, as I mentioned.)

I think you are a bit confused as to how the Panasonic HDR Optimizer works. Even with it on, the TV is still tone mapping. But the phrase "double-tone mapping" doesn't really work. The HDR Optimizer simply helps your display tone map properly. That's all it does.

The display setting for the HDR Optimizer sets the limit on where your TV tone maps and where the Optimizer will take over and help it. For instance, if your TV is not that great at tone mapping or a bad tone mapper, you would set it at Low Luminesce or 500 nits of HDR content. The display will tone map up to 500 nits and then the Optimizer will take over and help tone map the rest.

The same can be said for a great tone mapping display, which is the Super Luminescence or 1,500 nit setting. Again, the TV will tone map up to 1,500 nits of HDR content, and then the Optimizer will help with the rest. To me, I call the Optimizer a "helper". Your TV is still tone mapping but the Optimizer is helping the TV with the HDR content it has trouble tone mapping with.

I have done the comparisons that you speek of on my LG C9 OLED and I have found it does a great job tone mapping on its own but needs help with the higher nit content, which is why I have it set to Super High Luminance.

[enricoclaudio]

Originally Posted by Raven777777

I kick myself for missing the Oppos. But there was no chance I could have afforded it when it was in production. For a while I've noticed the last run version of the original ub9000 was made in the Czech Republic, as you've said. I never put serious thought into that, but are they different from the original ub9000 that were Made in China somehow?

Edit: I am guessing you meant that the Czech Republic ones are just rarer with no difference in quality compared to the original China ones, which could further its chances as a collector's item, adding to the fact that they are already the fleeting AKM DAC version.

Correct!! Not because something is made in Czech Republic is better than something made in China. Take as example HiFi DACs. EU and American companies are struggling to make electronics that can compete with the quality and performance of not only China made products, but also China companies like Matrix Audio, Topping and Gustard to mention some. Currently, in terms of performance, only a few EU companies can compete with the Chineses companies, one of them is RME.

[martydmc12]

Does anyone know if there's an option to properly eject a USB Thumb/Flash drive from the front and/or back USB port, other than shutting down the player and then taking it out? Is the eject button on the remote or on the player itself supposed to eject the drive the same way it would a disc from the tray?

[mkozlows]

Originally Posted by PUsokrJosh305

I think you are a bit confused as to how the Panasonic HDR Optimizer works. Even with it on, the TV is still tone mapping. But the phrase "double-tone mapping" doesn't really work. The HDR Optimizer simply helps your display tone map properly. That's all it does.

The display setting for the HDR Optimizer sets the limit on where your TV tone maps and where the Optimizer will take over and help it. For instance, if your TV is not that great at tone mapping or a bad tone mapper, you would set it at Low Luminesce or 500 nits of HDR content. The display will tone map up to 500 nits and then the Optimizer will take over and help tone map the rest.

Tone mapping is the process of mapping the input curve to an output curve. If you have HDR Optimizer in the chain with your TV, the HDR Optimizer will do a tone mapping pass, and present a modified signal to your TV, which will then do its own tone mapping pass on that modified signal.

The ideal outcome is that the Panasonic tone mapping pass got the range down to what your TV can handle, so that your TV doesn't have to actually make any changes, right. But since the player doesn't know your TV's exact capabilities, it's easy for it to map to a too-low peak (i.e., throwing away brightness your TV could display) or to a too-high peak (i.e., forcing your TV to do its own modifications on the already-modified signal, which seems suboptimal).

But even if you hit the ideal perfect case where the HDR Optimizer gives you a signal that's perfectly tone-mapped to your TV's capabilities and it needs no display-side modification, there's still no obvious reason that the 2018-era hardware and software in the player is going to be better than 2021-era hardware and software in a current-production TV, especially given that the TV knows precisely what its limits are, and isn't just working off of loose guidelines from the player.

For projectors that are bad at HDR, yeah, it's a great feature. But there's a lot of people assuming that it's a great feature for modern OLED displays without doing the rigorous testing to prove it out.

[Geoff D]

I agree with pretty much all of that, you're absolutely tone mapping the image twice if using the Optimiser as it's not like a replacement LUT that turns off your TV's own processing. It maps the image then the TV maps what it's being sent, albeit aided by the revised metadata that's being injected by the Optimiser.

The only thing I'd disagree with is an assumption that a 2021 TV will have superior tone mapping as they're all still doing their own thing. Someone with an A80J remarked in the Labyrinth thread how details in a certain scene were blown out (this in reference to the HDR10 vs the new Dolby Vision disc) whereas my old ZD9 doesn't blow out that scene at all in HDR10.

[JackTwist]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

The only thing I'd disagree with is an assumption that a 2021 TV will have superior tone mapping as they're all still doing their own thing. Someone with an A80J remarked in the Labyrinth thread how details in a certain scene were blown out (this in reference to the HDR10 vs the new Dolby Vision disc) whereas my old ZD9 doesn't blow out that scene at all in HDR10.

That was me. I only checked a couple of scenes to compare. It was during the descent into the hands pit that Jennifer Connelly's shirt seemed to blow out a little more in comparison to the Dolby Vision version. In DV, you could see all shirt details, despite the bright lights from above. My A80J was calibrated by Value Electronics and uses the Gradation Preferred setting for HDR tone mapping on HDR10 discs.

I only briefly tested the HDR Optimizer when I first got the TV and can certainly test again. I did not review the above scene in Labyrinth to determine if enabling would resolve this highlight detail. I did test using another Sony disc: Last Action Hero. What I found is that the TV wasn't blowing out the highlights by default (like the sky in the background of some shots). But if I enabled the HDR Optimizer on the UB820, those same sky highlights would drastically dim and lost much of their impact. Mid-day became almost dusk in comparison. It is as though Sony's tone mapping is attempting to replicate the impact of the creator's intention, even with the OLED panel's limited brightness.

I will also note my 77A80J is using the newer OLED panel from LG and, according to some comparisons, the 77" is much closer to the A90J in terms of brightness than the rest of the A80J line. So, mileage may vary with what I documented above.

Edit: Wanted to add that I previously owned a CX. The Optimizer did not function with that TV as what I listed above with the Sony. The Optimizer worked more as intended with LG's tone mapping algorithm.

[Geoff D]

That kinda sums up my point above: you can have a properly calibrated 2021 set - and it ain’t no supermarket special wot you’ve got - still manage to struggle with tone mapping some content.

[tama]

Originally Posted by JackTwist

Wanted to add that I previously owned a CX. The Optimizer did not function with that TV as what I listed above with the Sony. The Optimizer worked more as intended with LG's tone mapping algorithm.

Former LG B7 owner myself. I read in theory that LG tries to preserve highlight detail but tends to crush the entire image down to do so. Anything in a 4000 nit container without the MAX (Something I'm brain farting right now) info would be seriously crushed down.

My Sony doesn't perform in the same manner. So the optimizer isn't needed nearly as much.

I'm not in agreement though that using the optimizer on top of what the tv is doing is having a negative effect either.

[DaveFi]

Got my used UB820 off eBay today and I'm disappointed- not sure if I got a bad one or if this is how they all are:

First 4k disk I put in (Skyscraper) refused to read. 2nd disc I tried (Ready Player One) worked. 3rd disc (Star Trek) didn't work the first try- reinserted and it worked. 4th disc I tried (Creed) worked, no problem.

Ok, Network apps- Netflix hard-locks every single time- all I get is a black screen, I have to physically turn off and on the unit again. I tried the player connected through my receiver and directly to the TV, no difference. Prime Video works but when I try to play a video I get an error message saying "Try again later".

[Grinningcat_o3]

Originally Posted by FilmFreakosaurus

Yes, indeed. Four or more. That gives you front to back, side to side, back to front, and diagonal object panning.

You have processors that can go up to 10 overheads and 24 ground level speakers. However, for "regular" products, four overheads would be very good for a living room sized theater system. If you have limited space behind your seating, 5.1.4 is always an option.

As to potential bang for buck speakers... SVS Prime, Outlaw Audio (they are clones of the famous Snell Acoustics bookshelves by the same Snell designers... I have a pair of the LCR v2 and they are excellent, matching closely to my Triad Gold speakers costing 4 times more), Emotiva Airmotiv, Chane Audio. For starters.

So after much deliberation and research I just decided to sell my Sonos system and purchase the following to go for a 7.1.4 Atmos setup in my living room:

2x SVS Prime Pinnacle Towers
1x SVS Prime Center
4x SVS Prime Satellites for sides and surrounds.
1x SVS SB1000 sub
4x SVS Prime Elevation for front and rear Atmos
1x Denon 3700H Receiver

Greatly looking forward to this. My question here is what should I plan for type of speaker wiring and power supplies? Don’t want to cheap our and want to have proper wiring and power supplies since investing a good amount in this system.

[PUsokrJosh305]

Originally Posted by mkozlows

Tone mapping is the process of mapping the input curve to an output curve. If you have HDR Optimizer in the chain with your TV, the HDR Optimizer will do a tone mapping pass, and present a modified signal to your TV, which will then do its own tone mapping pass on that modified signal.

The ideal outcome is that the Panasonic tone mapping pass got the range down to what your TV can handle, so that your TV doesn't have to actually make any changes, right. But since the player doesn't know your TV's exact capabilities, it's easy for it to map to a too-low peak (i.e., throwing away brightness your TV could display) or to a too-high peak (i.e., forcing your TV to do its own modifications on the already-modified signal, which seems suboptimal).

But even if you hit the ideal perfect case where the HDR Optimizer gives you a signal that's perfectly tone-mapped to your TV's capabilities and it needs no display-side modification, there's still no obvious reason that the 2018-era hardware and software in the player is going to be better than 2021-era hardware and software in a current-production TV, especially given that the TV knows precisely what its limits are, and isn't just working off of loose guidelines from the player.

For projectors that are bad at HDR, yeah, it's a great feature. But there's a lot of people assuming that it's a great feature for modern OLED displays without doing the rigorous testing to prove it out.

Ah, so that's what you were meaning about "double tone mapping." That's my mistake for not understanding but I agree with you. But Geoff is right. Even 2021 TVs can have a hard time tone mapping certain scenes in films. I feel like too that there is no TV right now that can tone map everything 100% the way it should be. That would require a higher nit TV, which hasn't happened yet.

Now Geoff and others on here, including myself, have all agreed that if Panasonic would make another player and improve upon their Optimizer, that it would be great to have a "slider" so to speak and try to pinpoint more specifically where a TV's tone mapping lacks and where the Optimizer can help pick up the slack. Increments of 50 or 100 nits instead of the 500 nit increment would help so much!

[PUsokrJosh305]

Originally Posted by DaveFi

Got my used UB820 off eBay today and I'm disappointed- not sure if I got a bad one or if this is how they all are:

First 4k disk I put in (Skyscraper) refused to read. 2nd disc I tried (Ready Player One) worked. 3rd disc (Star Trek) didn't work the first try- reinserted and it worked. 4th disc I tried (Creed) worked, no problem.

Ok, Network apps- Netflix hard-locks every single time- all I get is a black screen, I have to physically turn off and on the unit again. I tried the player connected through my receiver and directly to the TV, no difference. Prime Video works but when I try to play a video I get an error message saying "Try again later".

The 820 or the 9000 are not the best when it comes to streaming apps. It's main purpose is to play 4K UHD, Blu-ray, and DVD Discs at high quality.

As for the playback issues, make sure the discs are not scratched or have fingerprints on them. The player is very sensitive. I have an 820 and don't have any playback problems at all!

[HeavyHitter]

Originally Posted by DaveFi

Got my used UB820 off eBay today and I'm disappointed- not sure if I got a bad one or if this is how they all are:

First 4k disk I put in (Skyscraper) refused to read. 2nd disc I tried (Ready Player One) worked. 3rd disc (Star Trek) didn't work the first try- reinserted and it worked. 4th disc I tried (Creed) worked, no problem.

Sounds like my 820. As mentioned, make sure your discs are super clean - free of any tiny dust spec, small fingerprint, etc.

[mkozlows]

I suppose if you wanted to stick to the player's tone mapping and let the TV pass it through unchanged, you could put the TV into HGIG mode, for TVs that support that. It's intended for gaming (where you can configure the console to limit output to your TV's max brightness), but all it really does is disable tone mapping entirely, as far as I know.