Panasonic UB820/UB9000 4K UHD Blu-ray player

[mdhaus]

Quick question: I've noticed that on some discs, my UB-9000 doesn't display a disc's menus correctly or subtitles engrained into the movie either don't appear or are blacked out.

Tonight, for example, I booted up The Hitman's Bodyguard on UHD and when the main menu appeared, I couldn't see any of the menus. They were selectable...but it's just a black box that appears for each entry and you have to blindly press the buttons and hope you get what you are looking for. Any ideas on why this might be happening? I noticed that it tends to do this on certain titles where it's bringing up overlays of some sort.

EDIT: After the movie finished playing, I stopped the player, turned off Dolby Vision in the settings, and rebooted the disc. I wanted to see if perhaps the Dolby Vision encoding was causing the problem. And sure enough, it was. When the player is outputting in HDR10, the menus appear just like they should with no issues. Any thoughts on if this is fixable?

[AKORIS]

another random question---

the 820 gives options of middle to high luminance, super high, or oled.

I'm noticing that some people are posting setting it to super high with an oled TV.

Is there a reason why you wouldn't automatically set the player to OLED?

[chip75]

Originally Posted by AKORIS

Is there a reason why you wouldn't automatically set the player to OLED?

Personal preference.

[PUsokrJosh305]

Originally Posted by AKORIS

another random question---

the 820 gives options of middle to high luminance, super high, or oled.

I'm noticing that some people are posting setting it to super high with an oled TV.

Is there a reason why you wouldn't automatically set the player to OLED?

You are probably referring to my post. chip is right. It's my personal preference as why I have it set that way. However, I have looked at/tested multiple films with those settings and it just looks right. Here is an example from the 5th HP film. This is when Dumbledore and Voldemort are battling each other. I think the time stamp is 1:59:10. My C9 is calibrated:

This is with it Set to OLED. Note the inner core of the spell has way too much Red and over exposure to the image:




And this is the playback info on the Panny 820:




This is when I set it to Super High Luminance. Although I sacrifice a tiny bit of detail, it seems to me the core of the spell is more even:




And this is what the playback info on the 820 using the Super High Luminance Setting. It allows the TV to tone map everything and the player doesn't touch it:



Note, I do use LG's DTM, but it makes no difference with the exposure of the core of the spell. If you also go back and look at the original blu-ray of the film, the spell is all blueish/white/green. There is no red in it. Even though Dumbledore's spell is red, his spell shouldn't be going through the core of Voldemort's.

Again, I'm not saying I'm right or wrong. I'm just showing/saying what I have been seeing based off of the movies I have watched. I truly believe the LG C9 or above does a great job at tone mapping content above 1,000 nits. It's when it gets close to 1,500 or above where it starts to have issues.

[hariseldon]

Originally Posted by dcx4610

I don't have any region B Blu-rays available to try this but I've seen someone mention that you can cheat the region lock by stopping and playing. Does this work on all Region B movies, not at all or just some of the time?

There are a few region B movies out there I'd like to grab but only if they'd work obviously. I'd rather not pay to mod my player for just 1-2 movies.

Many/a Lot/most Region B discs work on a Region A Panasonic, not all. I think this has been somewhat more common discussion with Region B players and Region A discs since Panasonics were out of the market in the US for many years before UHD Players came back

A thought there was a thread somewhere that tended to summarize which discs (studios) it was more likely to work with.

[dcx4610]

Originally Posted by hariseldon

Many/a Lot/most Region B discs work on a Region A Panasonic, not all. I think this has been somewhat more common discussion with Region B players and Region A discs since Panasonics were out of the market in the US for many years before UHD Players came back

A thought there was a thread somewhere that tended to summarize which discs (studios) it was more likely to work with.

I actually realized I have quite a few region B Blu-rays (that came with UHDs). I was able to get all of them to work by playing, stopping and then hammering the top menu button. While this may not work for all, I did think that was pretty cool to get it working at all.

I might risk importing Riki-Oh so I don't think we'll get a region A release any time soon.

[thebarnman]

Originally Posted by PUsokrJosh305

You are probably referring to my post. chip is right. It's my personal preference as why I have it set that way. However, I have looked at/tested multiple films with those settings and it just looks right. Here is an example from the 5th HP film. This is when Dumbledore and Voldemort are battling each other. I think the time stamp is 1:59:10. My C9 is calibrated:

This is with it Set to OLED. Note the inner core of the spell has way too much Red and over exposure to the image:




And this is the playback info on the Panny 820:



This is when I set it to Super High Luminance. Although I sacrifice a tiny bit of detail, it seems to me the core of the spell is more even:




And this is what the playback info on the 820 using the Super High Luminance Setting. It allows the TV to tone map everything and the player doesn't touch it:

When set on Super High Luminance Setting, it looks to me (as you say) there's some highlight detail that's getting blown out.

[PUsokrJosh305]

Originally Posted by thebarnman

When set on Super High Luminance Setting, it looks to me (as you say) there's some highlight detail that's getting blown out.

And thats the battle we all face when tone mapping HDR content. We can either get as much highlight detail possible but possible sacrifice color accuracy (like that spell in HP5) or sacrifice a small amount of highlight detail to be accurate. I choose the more color accurate. Plus, to me at least, the color of the spell is over exposed when set to OLED. Like it looks too bright and unnatural.

[Geoff D]

Josh: I confoose. With the Optimiser set to Super High (1500 nits threshold) then it won't map any content below that figure, and as it looks at MaxCLL first then it shouldn't be doing anything with your example as it's noted as 1135 nits. Are you still seeing a difference with it turned on vs off? The only thing it *is* doing is changing the mastering display metadata from 4000 nits to 1135 (to match the peak of the content), and as displays use that metadata to generate their own tone maps then that could be accounting for it.

[pbz06]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Josh: I confoose. With the Optimiser set to Super High (1500 nits threshold) then it won't map any content below that figure, and as it looks at MaxCLL first then it shouldn't be doing anything with your example as it's noted as 1135 nits. Are you still seeing a difference with it turned on vs off? The only thing it *is* doing is changing the mastering display metadata from 4000 nits to 1135 (to match the peak of the content), and as displays use that metadata to generate their own tone maps then that could be accounting for it.

He uses his LG's dynamic tonemapping too, so yes, but the differences would be because of that. If he disables tonemapping on his TV it should have zero effect with HDR Optimizer on vs off other than the revised mastering display metadata..Unless LG uses the metadata in their DTM algorithm.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by pbz06

He uses his LG's dynamic tonemapping too, so yes, but the differences would be because of that. If he disables tonemapping on his TV it should have zero effect with HDR Optimizer on vs off other than the revised mastering display metadata

I know that he's using DTM, and the rest is literally what I said. As such I'm still left wondering why he'd even use the Optimiser in Super High mode with content that's under 1500 nits.

[PUsokrJosh305]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

I know that he's using DTM, and the rest is literally what I said. As such I'm still left wondering why he'd even use the Optimiser in Super High mode with content that's under 1500 nits.

The reason why I use it in the Super High Mode is that the Optimizer seems to map content weirdly on the OLED setting than the Super High setting. This is at least what I have seen on my LG C9.

I know the HP films are hard to tone map, but I find the TV's tone mapping (not DTM) does a better job at tone mapping HDR content well above 1,000 nits. This includes HP 5. That "reddish" core of Voldemort's spell appears when I choose the OLED setting on the Optimizer. It becomes less red and more uniform when I have the Optimizer set to the Super High Mode. Now, I'm not sure if the red core of Dumbledore's spell is supposed to be there or not, but it wasn't there on the original blu-ray. It could have been added but again, I don't know for sure.

I also tested these settings out on a high nit movie, like Hook (good ole Sony Light Canon). My settings seemed to have gotten more details out of the picture on Super High Mode than in OLED mode on the HDR Optimizer. But what's weird is that in OLED mode, the Max Frame Light Level when down to 800 nits when Hook's Max Frame Light Level is 944. When using Super high Mode, it goes back to 944.

Now I know I use DTM, which helps a little further. I know people say it's inaccurate because it goes to bright or too dark but paired up with the Optimizer, it seems to fix the issues that DTM has on the picture. Again, I'm not saying I'm right. I'm just describing what I've seen. These are also the settings I found to work for Goblet of Fire when we did the testing on the ghost scene (even though it's a lost cause on that one).

[Glanners]

Originally Posted by hariseldon

Many/a Lot/most Region B discs work on a Region A Panasonic, not all. I think this has been somewhat more common discussion with Region B players and Region A discs since Panasonics were out of the market in the US for many years before UHD Players came back

A thought there was a thread somewhere that tended to summarize which discs (studios) it was more likely to work with.

Maybe this one?

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by PUsokrJosh305

The reason why I use it in the Super High Mode is that the Optimizer seems to map content weirdly on the OLED setting than the Super High setting. This is at least what I have seen on my LG C9.

I know the HP films are hard to tone map, but I find the TV's tone mapping (not DTM) does a better job at tone mapping HDR content well above 1,000 nits. This includes HP 5. That "reddish" core of Voldemort's spell appears when I choose the OLED setting on the Optimizer. It becomes less red and more uniform when I have the Optimizer set to the Super High Mode. Now, I'm not sure if the red core of Dumbledore's spell is supposed to be there or not, but it wasn't there on the original blu-ray. It could have been added but again, I don't know for sure.

I also tested these settings out on a high nit movie, like Hook (good ole Sony Light Canon). My settings seemed to have gotten more details out of the picture on Super High Mode than in OLED mode on the HDR Optimizer. But what's weird is that in OLED mode, the Max Frame Light Level when down to 800 nits when Hook's Max Frame Light Level is 944. When using Super high Mode, it goes back to 944.

Now I know I use DTM, which helps a little further. I know people say it's inaccurate because it goes to bright or too dark but paired up with the Optimizer, it seems to fix the issues that DTM has on the picture. Again, I'm not saying I'm right. I'm just describing what I've seen. These are also the settings I found to work for Goblet of Fire when we did the testing on the ghost scene (even though it's a lost cause on that one).

Yes, but again: with it set to Super High then the Optimiser is not actually mapping <1500 content, like that in your example, at all. My question is thus: what does the spell look like with the Optimiser off? If there is still a difference there between having the Optimiser set to on or off then it's down to how the Optimiser is changing the max display level metadata which alters how your TV's mapping is reacting.

(As an aside, it's insane that some TVs do their own mapping using only the max mastering display level. It's why some stuff is so oppressively dark on some displays, e.g. 247 nits Goodfellas inside a 4000 nit container. If they'd just done what Panny do and set it to look for MaxCLL first then so much of this crap could've been avoided. Not every disc has MaxCLL, granted, but many do.)

For reference, when using the 1000 nit modes (OLED and Medium/High) with Light Cannon™️ material then yes, it will set MaxCLL to 1000 nits and MaxFALL to 800 nits if either of those figures are exceeded by the respective metadata of the content.

[PUsokrJosh305]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Yes, but again: with it set to Super High then the Optimiser is not actually mapping <1500 content, like that in your example, at all. My question is thus: what does the spell look like with the Optimiser off? If there is still a difference there between having the Optimiser set to on or off then it's down to how the Optimiser is changing the max display level metadata which alters how your TV's mapping is reacting.

(As an aside, it's insane that some TVs do their own mapping using only the max mastering display level. It's why some stuff is so oppressively dark on some displays, e.g. 247 nits Goodfellas inside a 4000 nit container. If they'd just done what Panny do and set it to look for MaxCLL first then so much of this crap could've been avoided. Not every disc has MaxCLL, granted, but many do.)

For reference, when using the 1000 nit modes (OLED and Medium/High) with Light Cannon™️ material then yes, it will set MaxCLL to 1000 nits and MaxFALL to 800 nits if either of those figures are exceeded by the respective metadata of the content.

I think that is exactly what is going on. My TV us reacting to the Max Display Level limit the Optimizer is sending, which is then adjusting how the TV is mapping. My TV seems to react better when the limit or setting is 1,500 nits rather than 1,000 nits.

I will observe what it looks like when the Optimizer is "On" vs. "Off" when I get home from work but I know there is a difference, even on the 1,500 nit setting when the Optimizer is "On vs. "Off." So, it has to be the TV reacting to the Optimizer. But the thing is that I still feel like the Optimizer helps my TV tone map content. It just reacts to it weirdly.

[Geoff D]

Yes, the distinction I'm trying to get at here is whether the Optimiser is adjusting the tone mapping *itself* or whether the altered max display mastering level metadata is changing how the TV's internal tone mapping is reacting. Either way the Optimiser is having an effect, so I guess it all counts. (My own TV ignores the brightness metadata of the content so changing those parameters has zero effect at my end.)

[PUsokrJosh305]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Yes, the distinction I'm trying to get at here is whether the Optimiser is adjusting the tone mapping *itself* or whether the altered max display mastering level metadata is changing how the TV's internal tone mapping is reacting. Either way the Optimiser is having an effect, so I guess it all counts. (My own TV ignores the brightness metadata of the content so changing those parameters has zero effect at my end.)

If I can remember correctly, you have one of the better Sony TVs and they are by far the best tone mappers. Very superior. If it wasn't for the gaming aspects of the LG TVs, I would have gone for a Sony.

But, I will post pictures of before and after. I'm curious to know if the same results are happening with other owners of LG OLEDs?

[dcx4610]

Originally Posted by PUsokrJosh305

If I can remember correctly, you have one of the better Sony TVs and they are by far the best tone mappers. Very superior. If it wasn't for the gaming aspects of the LG TVs, I would have gone for a Sony.

But, I will post pictures of before and after. I'm curious to know if the same results are happening with other owners of LG OLEDs?

Speaking of, have you seen the PS5-ready TVs Sony is putting out? I'm primarily a PC gamer but I do have a PS5 and I think that'll be my next TV.

OLED and auto-HDR tone mapping and Game-Mode detection. Plus, Dolby Vision. I really like my Samsung QLED but I want to experience DV and it seems like that just isn't going to happen with them.

[PUsokrJosh305]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Yes, the distinction I'm trying to get at here is whether the Optimiser is adjusting the tone mapping *itself* or whether the altered max display mastering level metadata is changing how the TV's internal tone mapping is reacting. Either way the Optimiser is having an effect, so I guess it all counts. (My own TV ignores the brightness metadata of the content so changing those parameters has zero effect at my end.)

So, I did look more into this today. You are right in the fact that the Super High Luminace Setting (1,500 setting) for the Optimizer does nothing for HP 5 since the highest grade is 1135 nits. However, I did notice a big change in the Optimizer when set to the OLED setting. I used a different scene this time. Note: LG's DTM is "Off" on both pictures.


When the Optimizer was "On" and set to OLED this is what it looked like:




This is when the Optimizer was "Off" and set to OLED:




Clearly, you can see the Optimizer seemingly over exposing the highlights, making them more reddish than blue/white. When it was "Off," the highlights seem to go back to a more blue/white, which seems more natural to the scene. Red doesn't make sense unless if Dumbledore's Spell is there. Again, I didn't see this in the blu-ray though. Everything was more blue/white.

Again, this could be HP and how they did the HDR grade, but I feel as though the Optimizer works better for me set at Super High mode rather than OLED.

[pbz06]

That's just the difference between clipped and tonemapped. The optimizer brings back lost color. WOLED is poor with hdr color at high luminance, relies on white subpixel so mostly white gets bright in HDR.