Panasonic UB820/UB9000 4K UHD Blu-ray player

[HeavyHitter]

Originally Posted by rprice54

My setup is a custom curve (from a user Javs at another forum), low lamp. Wide open iris. BT2020 colorspace.

Just one thing to keep in mind: if you are simply borrowing someone else's curve, it's not "custom" or optimal to your set-up. They are only custom to Javs. The ideal Arve curve should be designed around your projector's MLL, peak light output, etc. It involves specific data and parameters to be entered into the actual curve of your individual set-up when designed.

[Kris Deering]

Sounds like all the projector owners are doing this wrong so far and don’t understand how the player works. It is my daughters birthday today so I don’t have time to explain. I’ll post tomorrow to clear things up.

[brazensol]

Originally Posted by Kris Deering

Sounds like all the projector owners are doing this wrong so far and don’t understand how the player works. It is my daughters birthday today so I don’t have time to explain. I’ll post tomorrow to clear things up.

Looking forward to your recommendations.

[Kris Deering]

Have a quick break while my wife is getting her workout done.

Projector owners, DO NOT USE standard HDR out. Just use SDR2020. DO NOT USE any tone mapping you already had (Chad curve, Arve curve). You need to calibrate your projector for a 2.4 gamma and use 2020 color (or equivalent). Figure out what your peak white nit level is and use that as a starting point for setting the brightness with the slider. I would suggest a 5x multiplier to start. SO, if you have 100 nits, you want to start with 500 nits for the slider. The default level of the slider is 350 (mid point that it starts on). If you go lower, the number gets HIGHER, if you go higher the number is LOWER! All the way up is 100 nits, so you'll hav not figure out the math for what each step is. Start with that and then you can adjust up or down if you feel the need to with different films. It does not have to be perfect, just get yourself close. I've found that 5x is a good place to start and most of the time somewhere between 4 and 6x works for just about every film. If a film is on the darker side for your taste, go to 4K. If it is a really aggressive HDR movie like Mad Max or John Wick 2, 6x will give you more dynamic range for a bit more punch.

Now, with SDR2020 the HDR Optimizer DOES do something. The reason a lot of you aren't seeing any difference between on and off is because the majority of titles on the market are mastered to 1000 nits. With HDR Optimizer OFF, the player is defaulting to a 1000 nit based tone map. With it ON, the player is adjusting the tone map based on the MaxCLL or MaxDML (which is 1000 for A LOT of movies!!!). If MaxCLL is less than MaxDML, it uses CLL. If MaxCLL is higher than DML, it uses DML. If MaxCLL is 0 it uses DML. If all are zero, it uses 1000. So I would suggest that you turn is ON. The only title that I feel this could cause an issue with is Sicario, as it has a MaxCLL of 0 and MaxDML of 4000 but the MaxCLL is actually really close to 1000, so this is a title where HDR Optimizer OFF will actually look MUCH better. Otherwise, On would work with 99% of titles more effectively.

I DO NOT recommend using regular HDR out with the HDR Optimizer plus your Arve curves or what Chad did. That is applying overlaying tone maps that are already aggressive because of low light output. That is a recipe for issues galore. So SDR2020 for projectors!!!

Good luck!

[LordoftheRings]

Originally Posted by RodChester

Man those HDR optimizer pics are something else. The 820 is really looking like a great player. I’m starting to consider selling my Oppo 203 and getting an 820. Hell, I may even come out a few dollars ahead seeing what the 203s are going for.

The only thing about the 820 that I don’t like is how the front looks. I’m not a fan of how the whole front panel folds down. I’d rather have the disc tray visible instead of hidden.

Less dust gets in...hidden tray.

[Robert Zohn]

@Kris Deering, great post! Thanks for the exceptional support and valuable information.

Originally Posted by RodChester

Man those HDR optimizer pics are something else. The 820 is really looking like a great player. I’m starting to consider selling my Oppo 203 and getting an 820. Hell, I may even come out a few dollars ahead seeing what the 203s are going for.

The only thing about the 820 that I don’t like is how the front looks. I’m not a fan of how the whole front panel folds down. I’d rather have the disc tray visible instead of hidden.

I have an engineering sample of Panasonic's flagship UB9000 and it has a standard disc tray operation and look. You also get the best build and design quality and premium audio decoding and output.

Here's a few pictures of Panasonic's UN9000. Delivery scheduled for October 2018.

[LordoftheRings]

In time for Mission: Impossible - Fallout (4K)
_____

* Happy Birthday to your daughter, Kris.

[DJR662]

Originally Posted by Kris Deering

Have a quick break while my wife is getting her workout done.

Projector owners, DO NOT USE standard HDR out. Just use SDR2020. DO NOT USE any tone mapping you already had (Chad curve, Arve curve). You need to calibrate your projector for a 2.4 gamma and use 2020 color (or equivalent). Figure out what your peak white nit level is and use that as a starting point for setting the brightness with the slider. I would suggest a 5x multiplier to start. SO, if you have 100 nits, you want to start with 500 nits for the slider. The default level of the slider is 350 (mid point that it starts on). If you go lower, the number gets HIGHER, if you go higher the number is LOWER! All the way up is 100 nits, so you'll hav not figure out the math for what each step is. Start with that and then you can adjust up or down if you feel the need to with different films. It does not have to be perfect, just get yourself close. I've found that 5x is a good place to start and most of the time somewhere between 4 and 6x works for just about every film. If a film is on the darker side for your taste, go to 4K. If it is a really aggressive HDR movie like Mad Max or John Wick 2, 6x will give you more dynamic range for a bit more punch.

Now, with SDR2020 the HDR Optimizer DOES do something. The reason a lot of you aren't seeing any difference between on and off is because the majority of titles on the market are mastered to 1000 nits. With HDR Optimizer OFF, the player is defaulting to a 1000 nit based tone map. With it ON, the player is adjusting the tone map based on the MaxCLL or MaxDML (which is 1000 for A LOT of movies!!!). If MaxCLL is less than MaxDML, it uses CLL. If MaxCLL is higher than DML, it uses DML. If MaxCLL is 0 it uses DML. If all are zero, it uses 1000. So I would suggest that you turn is ON. The only title that I feel this could cause an issue with is Sicario, as it has a MaxCLL of 0 and MaxDML of 4000 but the MaxCLL is actually really close to 1000, so this is a title where HDR Optimizer OFF will actually look MUCH better. Otherwise, On would work with 99% of titles more effectively.

I DO NOT recommend using regular HDR out with the HDR Optimizer plus your Arve curves or what Chad did. That is applying overlaying tone maps that are already aggressive because of low light output. That is a recipe for issues galore. So SDR2020 for projectors!!!

Good luck!

Thanks for your input.

Any particular reason as to why you would not be using a projector's standard HDR out?

I have only seen a couple of movies so far with the 820 + my previous Sony 285ES projector (haven't tried anything yet with my current Sony 385ES though), but I did do quite a bit of testing by just watching different scenes from various movies on it. I thought it looked great with HDR out and no custom curves. No clipping and still a bright picture with movies like Mad Max and Starship Troopers for example.

Might want to try with HDR off and selecting BT2020 manually, see what difference it will make. So you would then recommend choosing gamma 2.4?

[COACH10810]

Originally Posted by Kris Deering

Have a quick break while my wife is getting her workout done.

Projector owners, DO NOT USE standard HDR out. Just use SDR2020. DO NOT USE any tone mapping you already had (Chad curve, Arve curve). You need to calibrate your projector for a 2.4 gamma and use 2020 color (or equivalent). Figure out what your peak white nit level is and use that as a starting point for setting the brightness with the slider. I would suggest a 5x multiplier to start. SO, if you have 100 nits, you want to start with 500 nits for the slider. The default level of the slider is 350 (mid point that it starts on). If you go lower, the number gets HIGHER, if you go higher the number is LOWER! All the way up is 100 nits, so you'll hav not figure out the math for what each step is. Start with that and then you can adjust up or down if you feel the need to with different films. It does not have to be perfect, just get yourself close. I've found that 5x is a good place to start and most of the time somewhere between 4 and 6x works for just about every film. If a film is on the darker side for your taste, go to 4K. If it is a really aggressive HDR movie like Mad Max or John Wick 2, 6x will give you more dynamic range for a bit more punch.

Now, with SDR2020 the HDR Optimizer DOES do something. The reason a lot of you aren't seeing any difference between on and off is because the majority of titles on the market are mastered to 1000 nits. With HDR Optimizer OFF, the player is defaulting to a 1000 nit based tone map. With it ON, the player is adjusting the tone map based on the MaxCLL or MaxDML (which is 1000 for A LOT of movies!!!). If MaxCLL is less than MaxDML, it uses CLL. If MaxCLL is higher than DML, it uses DML. If MaxCLL is 0 it uses DML. If all are zero, it uses 1000. So I would suggest that you turn is ON. The only title that I feel this could cause an issue with is Sicario, as it has a MaxCLL of 0 and MaxDML of 4000 but the MaxCLL is actually really close to 1000, so this is a title where HDR Optimizer OFF will actually look MUCH better. Otherwise, On would work with 99% of titles more effectively.

I DO NOT recommend using regular HDR out with the HDR Optimizer plus your Arve curves or what Chad did. That is applying overlaying tone maps that are already aggressive because of low light output. That is a recipe for issues galore. So SDR2020 for projectors!!!

Good luck!

Thank you for this explanation. I would like to clarify one thing and ask a quick question.

When you mention the "slider" in regards to getting the SDR 2020 picture dialed in.
1. Are you talking about the Dynamic Range slider or the brightness slider?
2. What would be the best way of determining the peak white nit level? Would that be the 60 or 61 nit level that Chad told me I was getting? Or would be another number I can locate on a calibration report?

Thanks again.

Originally Posted by Robert Zohn

@Kris Deering, great post! Thanks for the exceptional support and valuable information.



I have an engineering sample of Panasonic's flagship UB9000 and it has a standard disc tray operation and look. You also get the best build and design quality and premium audio decoding and output.

Here's a few pictures of Panasonic's UN9000. Delivery scheduled for October 2018.

Hey Robert, Have you found any differences with the video performance of the UB9000 vs UB820? Or any audio from a home theater only stand point? I LOVE the look and build of this machine, but I am trying to decide if it is worth the money to upgrade for that alone.

[Robert Zohn]

I have only compared them one time and could not visually see any difference in the video performance between the UB820 and UB9000. I'd like to do more a/b comparisons before making a final judgement.

I theory the UB9000 may be able to deliver a slightly better image due to it's entirely separated circuits and power supplies and distribution of the audio and video circuitry. The audio and video sections are separated and shielded from each-other. The purpose is to eliminate any possible interference from any of the components.

As you noted the build quality and audio DAC is the most impressive upgrades of the UB9000. I'm hoping for my 1st small allocation mid October.

[elwaylite]

I think people should not over complicate, even though they always do. Look at Oppo 203 and Oppo 205, and what most Oppo folks would say. If you just spin discs and bitstream audio, get the 820. If you want the more advanced outputs on the 9000, get the 9000.

Now I know "build quality" is a big deal to some, so in that case it is your dollar.

[Kris Deering]

Originally Posted by DJR662

Thanks for your input.

Any particular reason as to why you would not be using a projector's standard HDR out?

I have only seen a couple of movies so far with the 820 + my previous Sony 285ES projector (haven't tried anything yet with my current Sony 385ES though), but I did do quite a bit of testing by just watching different scenes from various movies on it. I thought it looked great with HDR out and no custom curves. No clipping and still a bright picture with movies like Mad Max and Starship Troopers for example.

Might want to try with HDR off and selecting BT2020 manually, see what difference it will make. So you would then recommend choosing gamma 2.4?

Again the reason is your overlapping two aggressive tone maps. There is absolutely no reason to do that. You may still end up with acceptable results, but I think the better way to go will be SDR2020 with a projector for the single tone map. A gamma of 2.4 is what Panasonic assumes for their baseline, so if you want the image to look as intended, that is the gamma you should select.

[Kris Deering]

[QUOTE=COACH10810;15374941]Thank you for this explanation. I would like to clarify one thing and ask a quick question.

When you mention the "slider" in regards to getting the SDR 2020 picture dialed in.
1. Are you talking about the Dynamic Range slider or the brightness slider?
2. What would be the best way of determining the peak white nit level? Would that be the 60 or 61 nit level that Chad told me I was getting? Or would be another number I can locate on a calibration report?

Thanks again. /QUOTE]

Yes, dynamic range slider. All it is changing is the multiple for the tone map.

Best way to determine the peak white nit level is to measure it off your screen, but the number Chad told you should be yours. So you would start with 300 nits. So you're really close to the default of the player. Maybe a tick or two up.

[DJR662]

Originally Posted by Kris Deering

Again the reason is your overlapping two aggressive tone maps. There is absolutely no reason to do that. You may still end up with acceptable results, but I think the better way to go will be SDR2020 with a projector for the single tone map. A gamma of 2.4 is what Panasonic assumes for their baseline, so if you want the image to look as intended, that is the gamma you should select.

Thanks.

Will definitely try that next time.

[elwaylite]

I used SDR 2020 with the Fury and UB900 on a LG EF9500. It was amazing how good it looked (the EF9500 has terrible HDR tone mapping).

[DLCPhoto]

Originally Posted by Kris Deering

Again the reason is your overlapping two aggressive tone maps. There is absolutely no reason to do that. You may still end up with acceptable results, but I think the better way to go will be SDR2020 with a projector for the single tone map. A gamma of 2.4 is what Panasonic assumes for their baseline, so if you want the image to look as intended, that is the gamma you should select.

Appreciate your sharing your knowledge and experience!

If one has a truly custom-designed Arve-type curve, and using straight HDR output from this, or other, UHD BD Player, is there any theoretical or real-world benefit, or disadvantage, compared to using the SDR2020 from the UB820?

Back a year or more ago, people switched from the SDR2020 approach (using the UB900, for example, with an appropriate HDFury device), to using straight HDR output from the Player, and utilizing Arve's custom curves, thinking this would yield superior results.

How is this different, or not different, with the use of the UB820?

It seems, on the surface at least, that going 'back' to an SDR2020 approach with Projectors at least, rather than an HDR/Arve Curve approach, is giving something up?

[Ant1010]

Robert,

how does the up conversion for regular BD and DVD look on the 9000?

[pathfinder2810]

@Kris Deering

What advice can you give to those who do not have a 4k video projector?I am one of these since I have a Jvc D-Ila Rs 10....

[Kris Deering]

Originally Posted by pathfinder2810

@Kris Deering

What advice can you give to those who do not have a 4k video projector?I am one of these since I have a Jvc D-Ila Rs 10....

The player will work fine with 1080p projectors so long as the HDCP is valid. You would just tell the player you have a 1080p display and set it to SDR709. In then end you would probably be just as well off playing back standard Blu-ray since you're tone mapping and scaling down anyways, but you'd be able to play the discs if you want to.

[HeavyHitter]

DLCPhoto,

As good as the Arve curves are (mine were done by Chad B), there are moments which are fairly rare, yet still happen, where certain highlights can look a bit too compressed in a certain scenes. It can be a specular highlight that looks overly "hot". If the HDR Optimizer can help 'decompress' these moments better while giving me the rest of the benefits of the Arve curve, I think the 820 would be worthwhile for me. This is the only issue I ever encounter with HDR in general on my RS440. I know some projection owners complain about lack of brightness or the image looking too dark with HDR, but I don't encounter that (although surely more nits would improve compressed highlights while maintaining sufficient APL).