Panasonic UB820/UB9000 4K UHD Blu-ray player

[Kris Deering]

Originally Posted by DLCPhoto

Appreciate your sharing your knowledge and experience!

If one has a truly custom-designed Arve-type curve, and using straight HDR output from this, or other, UHD BD Player, is there any theoretical or real-world benefit, or disadvantage, compared to using the SDR2020 from the UB820?

Back a year or more ago, people switched from the SDR2020 approach (using the UB900, for example, with an appropriate HDFury device), to using straight HDR output from the Player, and utilizing Arve's custom curves, thinking this would yield superior results.

How is this different, or not different, with the use of the UB820?

It seems, on the surface at least, that going 'back' to an SDR2020 approach with Projectors at least, rather than an HDR/Arve Curve approach, is giving something up?

Couple things here. An Arve curve is just a generated tone map, but it is literally a single tone map that is trying to be the best for a WIDE range of material that is mastered at vastly different levels. The UB820 (NOT the UB900) adapts its tone map to each individual titles mastering data, the Arve curve does not. Also, depending on what projector you are using, you don't need a box in between the player and projector to use features like the dynamic iris and such.

You're comment about going "back" infers that this is a step in the wrong direction. The Arve curves are nothing more than tone maps to your projectors peak output, this is no different. But this is based on Panasonic's in house research for tone mapping (the Arve tool is not, but its an intelligent approach with VASTLY different results based on the users trial and error or best guess) and adapts title to title. To me the Arve tool and its limitations are a step back from this approach.

[rprice54]

Originally Posted by Kris Deering

Have a quick break while my wife is getting her workout done.

Projector owners, DO NOT USE standard HDR out. Just use SDR2020. DO NOT USE any tone mapping you already had (Chad curve, Arve curve). You need to calibrate your projector for a 2.4 gamma and use 2020 color (or equivalent). Figure out what your peak white nit level is and use that as a starting point for setting the brightness with the slider. I would suggest a 5x multiplier to start. SO, if you have 100 nits, you want to start with 500 nits for the slider. The default level of the slider is 350 (mid point that it starts on). If you go lower, the number gets HIGHER, if you go higher the number is LOWER! All the way up is 100 nits, so you'll hav not figure out the math for what each step is. Start with that and then you can adjust up or down if you feel the need to with different films. It does not have to be perfect, just get yourself close. I've found that 5x is a good place to start and most of the time somewhere between 4 and 6x works for just about every film. If a film is on the darker side for your taste, go to 4K. If it is a really aggressive HDR movie like Mad Max or John Wick 2, 6x will give you more dynamic range for a bit more punch.

Now, with SDR2020 the HDR Optimizer DOES do something. The reason a lot of you aren't seeing any difference between on and off is because the majority of titles on the market are mastered to 1000 nits. With HDR Optimizer OFF, the player is defaulting to a 1000 nit based tone map. With it ON, the player is adjusting the tone map based on the MaxCLL or MaxDML (which is 1000 for A LOT of movies!!!). If MaxCLL is less than MaxDML, it uses CLL. If MaxCLL is higher than DML, it uses DML. If MaxCLL is 0 it uses DML. If all are zero, it uses 1000. So I would suggest that you turn is ON. The only title that I feel this could cause an issue with is Sicario, as it has a MaxCLL of 0 and MaxDML of 4000 but the MaxCLL is actually really close to 1000, so this is a title where HDR Optimizer OFF will actually look MUCH better. Otherwise, On would work with 99% of titles more effectively.

I DO NOT recommend using regular HDR out with the HDR Optimizer plus your Arve curves or what Chad did. That is applying overlaying tone maps that are already aggressive because of low light output. That is a recipe for issues galore. So SDR2020 for projectors!!!

Good luck!

I wasnt using the HDR Opt with my curve- I was comparing the two. HDR Opt with the PJs default HDR 2084 settings was worse than my Javs curve.

Yes- I realize Javs curve isn’t technically ‘custom’ but most refer to it as custom since we are adding it to the projector with a python script as opposed to the out of the box curves. I did dial in my own peak brightness and black floor levels so my curve is different from the original curve. Semi-custom?

When I turn on SDR/2020 my JVC 540 still reports an HDR signal (it does change from HDR.2084 and now just says HDR. The maxCll data is stripped.) Any thoughts there?

[DLCPhoto]

Originally Posted by Kris Deering

Couple things here. An Arve curve is just a generated tone map, but it is literally a single tone map that is trying to be the best for a WIDE range of material that is mastered at vastly different levels. The UB820 (NOT the UB900) adapts its tone map to each individual titles mastering data, the Arve curve does not. Also, depending on what projector you are using, you don't need a box in between the player and projector to use features like the dynamic iris and such.

You're comment about going "back" infers that this is a step in the wrong direction. The Arve curves are nothing more than tone maps to your projectors peak output, this is no different. But this is based on Panasonic's in house research for tone mapping (the Arve tool is not, but its an intelligent approach with VASTLY different results based on the users trial and error or best guess) and adapts title to title. To me the Arve tool and its limitations are a step back from this approach.

Thank you very much for the reply and explanation.

I didn't realize that the UB820 intelligently adapts its tone mapping for each title. That is a huge difference, as you clearly point out.

I thought there was something more going on with the UB820's approach to SDR2020 (which is why I said that it appeared 'on the surface' as if it were a step backward), based on the various posts from you and other knowledgeable people! Your reply shows exactly how and why this is the case.

In other words, "this isn't your father's SDR2020"!!

I have the RS400, and so have the Linker in line, to restore DI and prevent Gamma D autoswitching. I could take this out of the chain with the UB820, as you also point out.

The only other thing I would want would be the ability to shift subtitles (which are frequently on the black border of my 1.35:1 scope screen). I have read the UB820 User Manual, and don't see it mentioned there as an option.

Can you or anyone confirm whether the UB820 (or the upcoming 9000) will enable the user to shift subtitles?

[DLCPhoto]

Originally Posted by HeavyHitter

DLCPhoto,

As good as the Arve curves are (mine were done by Chad B), there are moments which are fairly rare, yet still happen, where certain highlights can look a bit too compressed in a certain scenes. It can be a specular highlight that looks overly "hot". If the HDR Optimizer can help 'decompress' these moments better while giving me the rest of the benefits of the Arve curve, I think the 820 would be worthwhile for me. This is the only issue I ever encounter with HDR in general on my RS440. I know some projection owners complain about lack of brightness or the image looking too dark with HDR, but I don't encounter that (although surely more nits would improve compressed highlights while maintaining sufficient APL).

Thanks for the comment. Kris's reply to my post explains how the UB820's SDR2020 approach works, using different tone-mapping for each title. This alone could provide a superior result to even the best designed Arve curve.

This could be very tempting...

[Kris Deering]

I think there was a report that the JVCs will report HDR with a 2020 input, but it isn't forcing its HDR tone map (when it says HDR2084). So that doesn't make any difference. It won't report MaxCLL anymore because it is seeing a standard SDR input. This is why I said you have to use a gamma of 2.4, NOT your Arve curve or the projector's HDR 2084 curve.

HDR Optimizer with your projectors 2084 would require some grooming. The projector's curve is set for a specific tone map (could be 10,000 nits, 4,000 nits, 1000 nits, who knows) and now with Optimizer the player is doing it for either 1500, 1000, 800, or 500. So again, overlapping tone maps will more than likely yield unpleasant results.

[HeavyHitter]

Kris,

I do not have a calibrated 2.4 gamma on my RS440, but Chad did a bt.1886 for me (which I think averages around 2.33 or 2.34). Should this be close enough for the SDR 2020 on the 820?

[Kris Deering]

Originally Posted by HeavyHitter

Kris,

I do not have a calibrated 2.4 gamma on my RS440, but Chad did a bt.1886 for me (which I think averages around 2.33 or 2.34). Should this be close enough for the SDR 2020 on the 820?

Should be close. 1886 is a 2.4 gamma with correction for your actual black level, so it should be fine.

[stevegee]

Any idea if/when the UB420 is coming to the states?

I have a JVC projector and cant make any use of Dolbyvision or the additional outputs so I think the 820 would be overkill for me. And probably a waste of $

[ronboster]

Originally Posted by stevegee

Any idea if/when the UB420 is coming to the states?

I have a JVC projector and cant make any use of Dolbyvision or the additional outputs so I think the 820 would be overkill for me. And probably a waste of $

As of current reports (from Robert, who would know), it is NOT coming to the US...so our options are the 820 or the 9000

[kalex]

Has anyone tested if the 820 de-interlaces 480i content any better than Panny's 2017 UHD models (e.g., the 900)?

[COACH10810]

Originally Posted by Robert Zohn

I have only compared them one time and could not visually see any difference in the video performance between the UB820 and UB9000. I'd like to do more a/b comparisons before making a final judgement.

I theory the BB9000 may be able to deliver a slightly better image due to it's entirely separated circuits and power supplies and distribution of the audio and video circuitry. The audio and video sections are separated and shielded from each-other. The purpose is to eliminate any possible interference from any of the components.

As you noted the build quality and audio DAC is the most impressive upgrades of the UB9000. I'm hoping for my 1st small allocation mid October.

Hey Robert. I will shoot you an email shortly about this.

[quote=Kris Deering;15375278]

Originally Posted by COACH10810

Thank you for this explanation. I would like to clarify one thing and ask a quick question.

When you mention the "slider" in regards to getting the SDR 2020 picture dialed in.
1. Are you talking about the Dynamic Range slider or the brightness slider?
2. What would be the best way of determining the peak white nit level? Would that be the 60 or 61 nit level that Chad told me I was getting? Or would be another number I can locate on a calibration report?

Thanks again. /QUOTE]

Yes, dynamic range slider. All it is changing is the multiple for the tone map.

Best way to determine the peak white nit level is to measure it off your screen, but the number Chad told you should be yours. So you would start with 300 nits. So you're really close to the default of the player. Maybe a tick or two up.

Thanks again Kris for your patience and willingness to answer my questions along with everyone else's on here. I plan on giving this a go later today or tonight. Since I am "Nit starved" with my low lamp curve and I don't always like the high lamp fan noise, this might be a very good way of getting the PQ where I want it to be.

Last time Chad was here, he gave me a 2.4 gamma setting, which I used when testing SDR2020.

[groundhog2]

Originally Posted by Kris Deering

The player will work fine with 1080p projectors so long as the HDCP is valid. You would just tell the player you have a 1080p display and set it to SDR709. In then end you would probably be just as well off playing back standard Blu-ray since you're tone mapping and scaling down anyways, but you'd be able to play the discs if you want to.

I think what those of us who don't have 4k HDR projectors yet want to be able to watch 4k discs because some remasters aren't available on the blu ray versions and many 4k discs have atmos when the blu ray counterpart doesn't.

I don't think we're expecting 4k discs to look better than a blu ray from the same masters, we just don't want it to look worse. I'm hoping that hdr to sdr conversion is at the point where the trade off is small.

One wrinkle I have is my runco q750i can reproduce the wider color gambit. Will the 820 output 1080p 2020?

[evan201]

Originally Posted by Kris Deering

Should be close. 1886 is a 2.4 gamma with correction for your actual black level, so it should be fine.

Hey Kris,

The Epson 5040 gamma is a grid with vertical sliders. Not sure If you're familiar with the differences of the Epson vs. the JVC's, but would going into the gamma settings and going to +2 across the whole grid be getting closer to 2.4 rather than leaving it at standard 0 gamma setting? This would definitely brighten things up, but would have to bring down the blacks with the projectors brightness setting after ticking up the gamma to +2 I assume.

Thanks for your help here.

[JWB2]

Originally Posted by evan201

Hey Kris,

The Epson 5040 gamma is a grid with vertical sliders. Not sure If you're familiar with the differences of the Epson vs. the JVC's, but would going into the gamma settings and going to +2 across the whole grid be getting closer to 2.4 rather than leaving it at standard 0 gamma setting? This would definitely brighten things up, but would have to bring down the blacks with the projectors brightness setting after ticking up the gamma to +2 I assume.

Thanks for your help here.

For SDR2020 mode, youll want to use the same settings in your epson that you use for regular blu ray (gamma 2.4, d65 ...or whatever the equivelant labels the epsons use) since the player will be doing all the TM instead of the PJ.

[curlyjive]

Originally Posted by groundhog2

I think what those of us who don't have 4k HDR projectors yet want to be able to watch 4k discs because some remasters aren't available on the blu ray versions and many 4k discs have atmos when the blu ray counterpart doesn't.

I don't think we're expecting 4k discs to look better than a blu ray from the same masters, we just don't want it to look worse. I'm hoping that hdr to sdr conversion is at the point where the trade off is small.

One wrinkle I have is my runco q750i can reproduce the wider color gambit. Will the 820 output 1080p 2020?

There is no free lunch here. HDR to SDR tone mapping can range from looks great to pretty bad. The oppo did a terrible job, while the Panasonic models have been the best at it.

I see a a lot title to title variance based on how the UHD was graded.

For example, titles like Deadpool and Guardians of the Galaxy 2 can look as good if not better than their blur ray counterparts when tone mapping to SDRBT2020. Sometimes the tradeoff might be a slightly darker average brightness, but better color and a cleaner transfer due to better compression and higher native resolution.

Other titles like John Wick and Star Ward the Last Jedi look better on blu ray. The way they are graded, I just can't get them to look nearly as natural and they often look dark and flat.

So their are some titles that I just stick with the bluray and others where it can be close to the same or better in some aspects...but there are almost always some tradeoffs.

[evan201]

Originally Posted by curlyjive

So their are some titles that I just stick with the bluray and others where it can be close to the same or better in some aspects...but there are almost always some tradeoffs.

This is how I feel about the "auto" vs. "auto-bright" signal modes in the dynamic range menu on the Epson. Some movies need more punch so Auto-Bright is best. Some movies don't require as much light punch so I can get away with "auto" mode which gives way better and wider looking colors.

[curlyjive]

Originally Posted by evan201

This is how I feel about the "auto" vs. "auto-bright" signal modes in the dynamic range menu on the Epson. Some movies need more punch so Auto-Bright is best. Some movies don't require as much light punch so I can get away with "auto" mode which gives way better and wider looking colors.

This is also where the dynamic range slider can help. Some titles benefit from turning it up a bit, others will looked washed out or too hot at the same level.

[Bond84]

Any other OLED owners want to chime in with their reviews/thoughts? I'm wondering whether I should sell the Oppo and grab this.

[elwaylite]

I sold the used Oppo 203 for $750 and bought this for $499. No brainer to me...

[RogerMathus]

Have confirmed that a Region A Panasonic BD820 will play Region B Blu-Ray discs with certain button sequence.

1.0 Put Region B disc in drawer. Press PLAY.
2.0 When Sorry this Disc is wrong Region appears, press STOP
3.0 Press TOP MENU and wait for menu screen to appear, Press ENTER for PLAY on Menu
The movie now starts.

Note: If you get a not allowed error message when TOP MENU is first pressed, press TOP MENU
again after error message at top of screen goes off. There may be some wait time. Lions
Gate Region B works with second press of TOP MENU button.

This has worked smoothly on five out of five different labels from UK that are Region B locked.
(Arrow, BFI,Masters of Cinema, CURZON Artificial Eye and Universal)

Could not make this work on France or Germany Region B discs.managed to play one German disc by skipping STOP and going to TOP MENU first.