2017 TV Shootout Evaluation event will be in NYC, July 12 and July 13, 2017

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Waboman

You seem to have beef with AVS. Why?

I thought I explained the philosophical concerns in the 2nd and 3rd paragraphs of post #15. My belief is not restricted to AVS per se. I’m not surprised if there are members from other forums/websites who read Blu-ray.com for information (which is sometimes leading edge exclusive), but also won’t post direct links to threads on this forum, for example,

or won’t participate here in good faith for the same reasons. My ‘beef’ as you call it, is I feel if one is sincere (rather than pursuing advertisers or other self promoting motives) in the pursuit of learning or achieving something better in science, technology, health, etc., these disciplines should not be bound by forum or institutional fanboyism purposely leading to isolationism.

The point is if you read a paper in a truly scientific journal about some aspect of the eyes which seems to be a prominent anatomical organ in AV world discussions, as I said above, it’s not uncommon to see *competing* institutions listed in the Bibliography because the investigators are working toward the common good of improving sight.

The ITU Working Party responsible for producing ITU-R BT. 2100 continues to work with participation by many diverse entities which one could ascertain as being competitive to each other, but I feel the primary goal is geared toward bringing better and better imagery to the public……just today and before - https://www.itu.int/md/R15-WP6C-C/en

Originally Posted by Waboman

Please do tell.

Well personally, some people don’t like seeing clips of gratuitous violence from movies during a presentation on a pleasure cruise, but no need in opening up old wounds (Blu-ray vs. HD DVD codecs, interoperability features, etc. emphasized by evangelists) if, and I’m hoping so, in the years since, Kevin has shown in actions or word that he has put any anti-Sony sentiment behind him. This is what I don’t know and would be good to know to somewhat assure outside observers of a fair judging panel. The more transparency to all aspects of this shootout, the better, since some of the public may be making purchasing decisions based upon its findings.

[ray0414]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

I thought I explained the philosophical concerns in the 2nd and 3rd paragraphs of post #15. My belief is not restricted to AVS per se. I’m not surprised if there are members from other forums/websites who read Blu-ray.com for information (which is sometimes leading edge exclusive), but also won’t post direct links to threads on this forum, for example,

or won’t participate here in good faith for the same reasons. My ‘beef’ as you call it, is I feel if one is sincere (rather than pursuing advertisers or other self promoting motives) in the pursuit of learning or achieving something better in science, technology, health, etc., these disciplines should not be bound by forum or institutional fanboyism purposely leading to isolationism.

The point is if you read a paper in a truly scientific journal about some aspect of the eyes which seems to be a prominent anatomical organ in AV world discussions, as I said above, it’s not uncommon to see *competing* institutions listed in the Bibliography because the investigators are working toward the common good of improving sight.

The ITU Working Party responsible for producing ITU-R BT. 2100 continues to work with participation by many diverse entities which one could ascertain as being competitive to each other, but I feel the primary goal is geared toward bringing better and better imagery to the public……just today and before - https://www.itu.int/md/R15-WP6C-C/en

Well personally, some people don’t like seeing clips of gratuitous violence from movies during a presentation on a pleasure cruise, but no need in opening up old wounds (Blu-ray vs. HD DVD codecs, interoperability features, etc. emphasized by evangelists) if, and I’m hoping so, in the years since, Kevin has shown in actions or word that he has put any anti-Sony sentiment behind him. This is what I don’t know and would be good to know to somewhat assure outside observers of a fair judging panel. The more transparency to all aspects of this shootout, the better, since some of the public may be making purchasing decisions based upon its findings.

I don't like posting direct links to bluray.com from AVS because there's some bad apples over there that I'd like to keep there and not find their way over here. I do however give a shout out here and there.

[PaulGo]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

I don’t mean to be a killjoy to the news, but for the record, as the self proclaimed “HD-DVD evangelist” after Amir from Microsoft, Kevin (e.g. [url]https://forum.blu-ray.com

You brought up some very bad memories of the format wars especially with my battles with Amir. You are correct both Amir and Kevin tried to distort the facts in favor of Microsoft's "superior" technology. But then again they were employees of Microsoft who were trying to save their jobs. Hopefully Kevin can now be an impartial judge of Sony technology.

[punisher]

Ken Ross....if I go I'll make sure it's the day HE IS NOT THERE...

lol...

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by PaulGo

You brought up some very bad memories of the format wars especially with my battles with Amir. You are correct both Amir and Kevin tried to distort the facts in favor of Microsoft's "superior" technology. But then again they were employees of Microsoft who were trying to save their jobs. Hopefully Kevin can now be an impartial judge of Sony technology.

Oh, I hope so too….to avoid any inherent bias, although Robert’s input into my honest concern (I haven't followed Kevin since the format war ended) reminds me of Tillerson….http://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow/w...s-893472835709

Anyway, also after reading the hyperlink that Robert provided, I get the impression that the calibrators, or those involved someway in the calibration of the TVs will be the expert judges. Is this true?

If so, is it possible to get some expert judges having nothing at all to do with calibrating or setting up the televisions in any way in order to avoid any inherent bias relating to their inside knowledge of objective measurements (i.e. this TV measures higher or better than that TV with my instruments, ergo it’s *better*….‘it has to be, even though I can’t see it’) which some calibrator judges may place a subconscious emphasis on when filling out their subjective scorecards….even if there is no intent to do so.

What’s critical here is not what the TVs measure, but what they look like (i.e. subjectivity rules), of course, in regards to movies, with the caveat that they are preserving creative intent and not adding on some consumer television eye candy processing changing the picture from what the filmmaker intended in the mastering suite.

Robert, if you need a referral to fill out the expert panel, you might want to contact one of the Vice-Chairs of Working Party 6C, scroll down here - http://www.itu.int/online/compass/pa...0Vice-Chairmen as they are well aware of such qualified individuals who may be willing to provide such a service. Outside of that, Qualcomm also has several highly qualified (and published) people.

[PaulGo]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

If so, is it possible to get some expert judges having nothing at all to do with calibrating or setting up the televisions in any way in order to avoid any inherent bias relating to their inside knowledge of objective measurements (i.e. this TV measures higher or better than that TV with my instruments, ergo it’s *better*….‘it has to be, even though I can’t see it’) which some calibrator judges may place a subconscious emphasis on when filling out their subjective scorecards….even if there is no intent to do so.

What’s critical here is not what the TVs measure, but what they look like (i.e. subjectivity rules), of course, in regards to movies, with the caveat that they are preserving creative intent and not adding on some consumer television eye candy processing changing the picture from what the filmmaker intended in the mastering suite.

I totally agree with you!

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by ray0414

I don't like posting direct links to bluray.com from AVS because there's some bad apples over there that I'd like to keep there and not find their way over here.

No problem if they find their way over here

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by PaulGo

I totally agree with you!

And with regards to another consideration offered to make thee TV shootout the best ever, I’ll kindly remind Robert and/or other silently lurking organizers of the event, of a recommendation I made last August (2016) for his upcoming shootout….

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

temporarily setting up a rental BVM-X300 (http://bexel.com/services-solutions/ )
adjacent to all your consumer TVs as a reference or *control* would be optimal because it’s been used during the creation of so many UHD titles and since you’ll never get your hands on a Dolby Pulsar.

As an alternative to the X300 as a reference monitor for the shootout, you might be able to procure a Dolby 2000 nit LCD as shown here at SMPTE conference, but I wouldn’t recommend it because the black level is not that good. For your purposes, I would also not recommend the 4,000 SIM2 HDR display -



as a reference monitor for comparison to the consumer TV contenders.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Robert Zohn

Thanks Penton-Man for your kind words....

Remember the good ‘ol days, back in the store?...and looking at what’s transpired since….https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PNLY4mKcrQ4#t=44m49s

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

And with regards to another consideration offered to make thee TV shootout the best ever...

Try to include as much (and, as diverse) sample content as you can in the time allotted for your observers to evaluate during the event, e.g. 8 sequences submitted for evaluation just at a recent meeting of international video professionals for visual assessment…. https://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.p...postcount=1353

[Robert Zohn]

Our 2017 TV Shootout will be held with CE Week NY. The July 12 - 13, 2017 dates are correct.

[Penton-Man]

I had no idea of the meaning/significance of your contribution ^ and had to PM someone else because I was confused about it and too embarrassed to ask you as to its relevance with it seeming so redundant, if not senile, at first glance.

On the contrary, I understand now . And it’s so fitting an example as to exactly the behavior I was referring to in post #15 on the last page…..

https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?t=289076

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Robert Zohn

We're holding our 2017 TV Shootout TM evaluation event in conjunction with CE Week NY on 7/12 - 13, 2017.

Any plans for something like a drawing for door prizes(s) for participants?

[Robert Zohn]

Yes, we are working on gift bags and door prizes.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Robert Zohn

Yes, we are working on gift bags and door prizes.

Yet another incentive for people to get out the house and attend.

[Penton-Man]

Robert, something was recently brought to my attention via PM on Thursday (me responding just after midnight the following day) , which got me wondering as regards to the TVs used as candidates in your upcoming shootout this summer.

When you acquire these units from Sony, LG, Samsung, etc., do the television manufacturers know beforehand that the specific unit they are supplying you with, ultimately will be used in the Value Electronics shootout? I’m thinking is there a way to preserve (in your materials and methods). as much as possible, a random sampling process as to what the typical consumer might get when they purchase one.

[Robert Zohn]

Glad you asked. Since the conception of my TV Shootout one of the core rules is that the TVs are randomly selected from my inventory. I actually go to my warehouse and "go eeny meeny miney mo, you are the one participating in this year's TV Shootout."

Over the 13 year history, only once did we accept a sample from a manufacturer. In 2014 when we accepted the 65" ZT60 from Panasonic. I forced them to send us two 65" ZT60s just to make it as difficult as possible to select the best sample and we also included the VT60 from my inventory so Panasonic had two PDPs in the 2014 TV Shootout.

I buy all of the TVs that are included in our TV Shootout.

[JimShaw]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Yet another incentive for people to get out the house and attend.

Boy would I love to go.

I almost went two years ago. I estimated that it would cost me around $1100-$1400 in airline tickets, hotels, food, car rental, etc.

So, I decided to save the money and buy a $10,000 TV from Robert.

Maybe I should have gone and saved money by not buying a new TV


.

[Zhorik]

Would there be a reference monitor in the shootout? If not how is it determined if the image is reproduced as it should?

Are the scores (out of 10) normalized? Would it be better to rank the displays from best to worst instead of the scores?

Will the bezel / logo be covered for all TV's? Although using the menu will defeat this.

I presume it will be live streamed (or video taped) and post on you-tube?

Will the TV's be ranked on both HD and UHD - SDR/HDR?

[Robert Zohn]

We're working on getting Sony's 30" OLED, BVMX300 professional color grading monitor as our reference.

The voting is set-up as a scale from 1 - 10, with 10 being best. Once we tabulate all of the ballots you can easily see the ratings from best to worst in each voting attribute.

Correct we do not cover the bezels as the menus would defeat the effort and we trust the integrity of the expert panel who are instructed to leave all biases out of their judgement.

Yes, we stream the event live. In the past I've used Vimeo, however, I am not considering other streaming services. Many years are archived on our Youtube TV Shootout page.

Yes, we vote on several elements of FHD and UHD.

Thanks to all for the very good questions and comments.