HDR Discussion Thread

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

scene-based changes

As an aside, reminds me, for those who don’t understand Japanese - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qb4sbWMOMXQ#t=6m24s

One can read this in English….http://www.sony.co.uk/pro/attachment...PvLQOCOO-y1Q.. as 'SR' stands primarily for 'Scene Referred'.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

That's kinda the point I think: IF the display can properly handle HDR10 then the lack of dynamic metadata isn't a huge concern, and never has been for such well-equipped folks. It's with the OLEDs and 'HDR lite' sets of the world (not to mention us poor old SDR boys!) whereupon the lack of scene-based changes really starts to hinder the presentation.

BUT naturally this will be levelled out in time as the HDR lite/SDR sets diminish and LG finally get a grip on their HDR10 processing implementation (already begun with a recent firmware update, I think?) so by the time dynamic metadata becomes a thing it may find itself as a solution without a problem. And HLG doesn't even need metadata in the same way, as the display applies the appropriate rendering intent.

Good points, although I don’t think you’ve charmed the Dolby Vision ideologs with your comment. As an aside, the word ‘rendering’ triggered a thought in my mind in regards to -

As far as from the perspective of a colorist, a royalty free dynamic metadata alternative to Dolby which everyone could use as a standard for transmitting metadata that describes how to transform the HDR image into a properly graded SDR image will remain an enticing option.

Because these days without a Dolby Vision license, the colorist has to render the SDR versions separately from the HDR versions as separate video files and build LUTS for the HDR -> SDR cross conversion, which is a more cumbersome and time-consuming process compared to the more elegant and efficient process of using dynamic metadata like with Dolby’s solution.

[Dragoncaine]

I've had my Samsung 55" Curved 4K UHD Smart TV (Model UN55KU6500F) for a while now, and I've been thoroughly enjoying the uptick in resolution, color, etc., but I do have one concern pertaining to HDR. My TV fully supports HDR and I have 4K HDMI cables hooked up for the TV and the Samsung UHD Blu-Ray player I own. When I insert a 4K Blu-Ray into the player, it informs me that an HDR-compatible disk is in use and it very obviously projects a sufficient 4K image. Additionally, when watching cable I can turn on the "HDMI UHD Color" feature to implement HDR in my basic television viewing.

However, despite all the signs indicating that I should be able to get this to work, when I go to turn on the "HDMI UHD Color" feature for the 4K Blu-Ray player, the menu doesn't even give me the option to turn it on or off. It's just permanently locked on "Off". When I click on the grayed-out option, a message displays saying, "This function is not available." I am thoroughly confused, considering I'm able to display HDR during cable viewing, both my TV and player are HDR-compatible, and I even get a message notifying me that an HDR disk is now playing upon inserting a 4K Blu-Ray into the player. Does anybody have any suggestions as to what I could try for a fix? 4K is nice, but without HDR a whole lot of nuance is lost.

[GunZenBomZ]

Would it be a horrible comment to inform you to read & comprehend the no doubt PDF manual version for your television? Or is it still okay in 2016 too request other people do the hard miles for you by reading your Tv's manual. And then been subservient to the whims of the feeble minded gentry we have become surrounded by online.

Infact before some overzealous admin finds I'm causing issues, go create a thread how you are confused by the technology you own & cannot comprehend how it works. It will get you surprising results far quicker then chasing info on a thread about HDR, not specific television makes.

[Geoff D]

Wind your neck in bruv.

[chip75]

Originally Posted by GunZenBomZ

Would it be a horrible comment to inform you to read & comprehend the no doubt PDF manual version for your television?

Most on-line manuals are terrible (especially some of the one-size-fits all e-manuals). Helping and supporting other members is one of the benefits of this site. The whole UHD BD HDR implementations has been terribly confusing for those who are trying to keep up-to-date, for the average consumer it's been a bit of a nightmare.

Originally Posted by Dragoncaine

I've had my Samsung 55" Curved 4K UHD Smart TV (Model UN55KU6500F) for a while now, and I've been thoroughly enjoying the uptick in resolution, color, etc., but I do have one concern pertaining to HDR. My TV fully supports HDR and I have 4K HDMI cables hooked up for the TV and the Samsung UHD Blu-Ray player I own. When I insert a 4K Blu-Ray into the player, it informs me that an HDR-compatible disk is in use and it very obviously projects a sufficient 4K image. Additionally, when watching cable I can turn on the "HDMI UHD Color" feature to implement HDR in my basic television viewing.

I'm not sure if this helps:

HDMI UHD Color
When you set the HDMI connection to On, the TV turns off and then on automatically.

The HDMI connection with HDMI UHD Color set to Off supports up to UHD 50P/60P 4:2:0 input signals, while the HDMI connection with HDMI UHD Color set to On supports up to UHD 50P/60P 4:4:4 and 4:2:2 input signals. For more information, refer to "Supported Resolutions for UHD Input Signals."

For the SUHD models, each HDMI connection can be individually optimized for HDMI UHD Color. For the UHD models, make sure to connect to the HDMI IN 1 port of the TV.

When you connect the TV to an external device that supports only the UHD 24 or 30 Hz frequency or any FHD frequency, the HDMI UHD Color function may not be available. In this case, set HDMI UHD Color to Off.

I'd double check that your player is in HDMI 1, apart from that you might have to adjust the player's options.

[EbonDragon]

Originally Posted by GunZenBomZ

Would it be a horrible comment to inform you to read & comprehend the no doubt PDF manual version for your television? Or is it still okay in 2016 too request other people do the hard miles for you by reading your Tv's manual. And then been subservient to the whims of the feeble minded gentry we have become surrounded by online.

Infact before some overzealous admin finds I'm causing issues, go create a thread how you are confused by the technology you own & cannot comprehend how it works. It will get you surprising results far quicker then chasing info on a thread about HDR, not specific television makes.

Or you could have just moved on instead of acting as if his question somehow personally inconvenienced you? Manuals are not always helpful when troubleshooting new tech.

[Penton-Man]

Rather than talking politics during Thanksgiving dinner this evening with any of your stubborn relatives who may be visiting and naively have no clue as to things like the Dodd–Frank Wall Street Reform and Consumer Protection Act or perhaps simply how ‘conflicts of interest’ by those who govern us can be incredibly dangerous to the nation (hell, this is why judges recuse themselves from certain cases even if there could be just the appearance of a potential conflict of interest).

Here is something video-ish to think about so as not to get your blood pressure up or frantically research ways of moving to Canada for the next four years…..

https://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/new...33_218800.html , namely Samsung buying QD Vision, who also does color science YouTubes….

Rec. 2020 - YouTube

Since calibrators and consumer videophiles (especially those advocating Dolby Vision) consider a faithful reproduction of the Director’s original creative intent to be of paramount importance….in terms of getting closer and closer to BT. 2020 coverage , what is Samsung’s stance? on the susceptibility to observer metamerism, not so much from marketing YouTubes, but rather from a scientific viewpoint, e.g. https://cias.rit.edu/media/uploads/f...metamerism.pdf

And a few more for reference:

Y. Asano, M.D. Fairchild and L. Blondé, Observer variability experiment using a four-primary display, AIC Colour 2013, Newcastle, 136-137 (2013).
Y. Asano and M.D. Fairchild, Observer variability experiment using a four-primary display, IS&T 21st Color & Imaging Conference, Albuquerque, 171-176 (2013).
D.L. Long and M.D. Fairchild, Reducing observer metamerism in wide-gamut multiprimary displays, SPIE/IS&T Electronic Imaging Conference, San Francisco, Volume 9394, 93940T (2015).
D.L. Long and M.D. Fairchild, Observer metamerism models and multiprimary display systems, SMPTE Annual Technical Conference, Hollywood, (2015).
M.D. Fairchild and R.L. Heckaman, Measuring observer metamerism: The Nimeroff approach, Color Research and Application 41, 115-124 (2016).
D.L. Long and M.D. Fairchild, Observer metamerism models and multiprimary display systems, SMPTE Motion Imaging Journal 125, 18-29 (2016).
M.J. Murdoch and M.D. Fairchild, Effects of inter-observer variation on color rendering metrics, IS&T 24th Color & Imaging Conference, San Diego, in press (2016).
Zhou, B. Grotton, K. Kruse, A. Skinner, A. DoVale, S. Farnand and M.D. Fairchild, Observer calibrator for color vision research, IS&T Electronic Imaging 2017 Conference, San Francisco, in press (2017).

[DanBa]

"Sony 4K HDR-compatible TVs support HDR10, but do not support the following formats:

. Dolby-Vision
. VP9-HLG
. VP9-HDR10 [i.e. VP9-PQ]

Android HDR-compatible TVs released in 2016 are scheduled to support VP9-HLG for YouTube with a future software update."

https://sony-paa-pa-en-web--paa.cust...il/a_id/168120

Will they be also compatible with HEVC HLG HDR since HEVC & HLG functions will be already there?

Will they be also compatible with VP9-PQ since 10-bit VP9 & CTA HDR10 functions will be already there?

[Penton-Man]

Figuring I have used the phrase ‘display adaptation’ in at least one of my prior posts, but thinking probably never defined it. Will do so now….

Display adaptation is a generic term covering techniques of video signal processing which adapts the decoded video signal to a target display. Techniques providing display SDR backward compatibility can be considered as a subset of display adaptation.

Display adaptation techniques aim at converting an HDR/WCG video signal, originally produced for a reference display capable to display a certain color volume (dynamic range and color gamut), to a video signal suitable to a target rendering device of different (from reference display) color volume capabilities.

For instance, it can be used to convert a non-constant luminance (NCL) YCbCr 4:2:0 10-bits Rec. ITU-R BT.2100 PQ signal whose master was produced on a display with a given peak luminance, to a lower peak luminance capable display. Display adaptation could also increase the color volume, if desired.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

relatives

I took my younger nieces and nephews to see Moana (http://www.dolby.com/us/en/movie-fin...MV008600760000) and instead of science, it gave me an opportunity to teach history (Pacific Islander) and pull out a T-shirt to show them which I’m still romantically proud of to this day, as it is a memento of both the sailing accomplishment of those sailors and when/where I met their aunt when we cheered the wayfinders into port…..https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...ea#post9159541

[Richard Paul]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Static Metadata is holding its own given its implementation with the release of The Grand Tour described on the last page, nevertheless, if you guys insist, a preview….https://standards.cta.tech/kwspub/pu...-G-Preview.pdf

Based on the section names listed in the preview for CTA-861-G it has additional InfoFrames, sections on dynamic metadata, and sections on 3D audio.

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

For Richard, more than a preview ….https://www.dvb.org/resources/public...-1_phase_2.pdf

It is very nice that the DVB puts their technical documents on their website for free and that consumer friendly approach is greatly appreciated.

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

As far as from the perspective of a colorist, a royalty free dynamic metadata alternative to Dolby which everyone could use as a standard for transmitting metadata that describes how to transform the HDR image into a properly graded SDR image will remain an enticing option.

I am hoping that SMPTE ST 2094-40 will eventually get added to HDR10.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

it gave me an opportunity to teach…..https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...ea#post9159541

Because they are eager to learn…https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2VTxUBgy8O4#t=5m51s

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

wayfinders

Forget to mention that they all enjoyed Moana in HDR, here’s one SDR video clip of the movie for context….

"We Know The Way" Clip - Moana - YouTube

I’m looking forward to the day when major Hollywood studios begin uploading their clips of feature films in HDR on YouTube because at the very minimum, it will increase consumer awareness to the format. Until then, indies like zmarty are blazing the trail.

[DanBa]

Originally Posted by Richard Paul

I am hoping that SMPTE ST 2094-40 will eventually get added to HDR10.

"Static and Dynamic HDR MetaData": Typo or not typo?
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/465-hi...oid-7-0-a.html

Royalty-free VP9-PQ YouTube HDR doesn't have dynamic metadata for the time being.
Royalty-free ST 2094-40 dynamic metadata should be welcome.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Richard Paul

Based on the section names listed in the preview for CTA-861-G it has additional InfoFrames...

Yes it’s a building block. During a discussion on a previous post here back in August, I made brief mention of it, but for typing convenience and the fact that I was multi-tasking at the time, shortened the nomenclature used on page 88 (HDR Dynamic Metadata Extended InfoFrame)
to 'einfoframe' in the post.....

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

...CTA developing a standard to support dynamic metadata (an eInfoFrame) in a revision.

[Penton-Man]

Speaking of info, a proposed helpful little tidbit is that in the coding of HDR/WCG video, the ambient viewing environment SEI message aims at describing the ambient viewing environment assumed when mastering the associated video content. It conveys the environmental illuminance and chromaticity coordinates in the CIE 1931 xyY color space of the mastering nominal ambient viewing environment.

This indicative information may assist the receiving system in adapting the received video content for local display in viewing environments that may differ from those assumed when mastering the video content.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Richard Paul

It is very nice that the DVB puts their technical documents on their website for free and that consumer friendly approach is greatly appreciated.

Although I doubt the info mentioned in my last post is included in any of the documents listed here – https://www.itscj.ipsj.or.jp/sc29/29w4vote1.htm , at times, ISO/IEC can be pretty open too (unlocked padlocks).

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Richard Paul

I am hoping that SMPTE ST 2094-40 will eventually get added to HDR10.

If you and others are fond of that solution for usage with regards to its intended purpose, one question is when will it be considered in scope and submitted to the JCT-VC (http://www.itu.int/en/ITU-T/studygro.../16/jctvc.aspx), because the SEI payload Syntax for ST 2094-40 is already ready (courtesy of Li et al. - https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...i#post12440020

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

"We Know The Way" Clip - Moana - YouTube

Deep Dive into history (they were the astronauts of our ancestors… the greatest explorers )

History of Hokulea - YouTube

[Penton-Man]

Whether it be opening it (10th down on the list -
https://tech.ebu.ch/events/hdr2016;j...D8F04FA8C4C244


or closing it…

CBS News discusses Vatican TV. - YouTube

This door of St. Peter’s Basilica



sure gets a lot of 4K HDR video coverage.....for a door. Using the HLG format as delivery, I heard the images of the Closing of the Holy Door were to be broadcast live into the Paolo VI Auditorium at the Vatican where they were planned to be seen side by side in HDR and SDR (for comparison). I hope there will be (like with the Opening), a Case Study presentation with pretty slides and flow charts of the Closing at an upcoming production seminar (EBU) or show (IBC)
http://digital-library.theiet.org/do...2432C639A28BFE

I mean if it can make National News.