The Criterion Collection

[bwdowiak]

Originally Posted by Rich Pure Doom

So you'd prefer if I disliked a film in a more polite way? I said I disliked the films and stated why. What's the harm in that? I find that when people ask for recommendations, particularly in this thread, it's nothing but endless positivity. The films ALWAYS get recommended and there is rarely a dissenting opinion. I'm not trying to dissent for the hell of it and I genuinely find these films to be vastly overrated. I have on repeated occasions expressed my love for films just as much as ones I dislike.

it takes courage to express a dissenting opinion. keep doing what you're doing. I think people just don't like to read bad thoughts about the films they love. it has nothing to do with what you're saying or how you're saying it.

[thatguamguy]

Originally Posted by Rich Pure Doom

I find that when people ask for recommendations, particularly in this thread, it's nothing but endless positivity. The films ALWAYS get recommended

The devil you say! People always respond to requests for recommended films with films that they recommend? Good thing you're around to throw a wrench in such behavior.

[Baron Blood]

Originally Posted by Rich Pure Doom

Unfortunately I didn't see either the art or the horror. I experienced the boredom though...

Fine.
The problem is when you say things like..."Onibaba is exploitation nonsense disguised as an art film." as if it's a fact.

[Rich Pure Doom]

Originally Posted by Baron Blood

Fine.
The problem is when you say things like..."Onibaba is exploitation nonsense disguised as an art film." as if it's a fact.

I'm allowed to state my opinion as a fact. Stating "in my opinion" after every statement is so unbelievably redundant and is only there to appease the lowest common denominators. The concept that I have this opinion IS a fact. If you can't observe that it's not UNIVERSAL fact, then it's your reading comprehension that's the problem, not my wording.

[Cremildo]

Onibaba certainly isn't "nonsense" - it's an allegory that deals with gender and class, as well as generational conflict. I just don't think it makes for a very interesting watch (which is something wholly subjective). Kuroneko, on the other hand, is not as renowned for having deep themes, but the way it's made is utterly hypnotic.

I'm all for movies that have something relevant to say, but their thematic substance is worth of praise so far as the execution does it justice.

[Dailyan]

Originally Posted by Rich Pure Doom

I'm allowed to state my opinion as a fact. Stating "in my opinion" after every statement is so unbelievably redundant and is only there to appease the lowest common denominators. The concept that I have this opinion IS a fact. If you can't observe that it's not UNIVERSAL fact, then it's your reading comprehension that's the problem, not my wording.

[Snicket]

Originally Posted by Baron Blood

Fine.
The problem is when you say things like..."Onibaba is exploitation nonsense disguised as an art film." as if it's a fact.

Originally Posted by Rich Pure Doom

I'm allowed to state my opinion as a fact. Stating "in my opinion" after every statement is so unbelievably redundant and is only there to appease the lowest common denominators. The concept that I have this opinion IS a fact. If you can't observe that it's not UNIVERSAL fact, then it's your reading comprehension that's the problem, not my wording.

On this point Rich is 100% correct.

*Trigger warning*

This post is an opinion.

[Banned User]

Originally Posted by Cremildo

Onibaba certainly isn't "nonsense" - it's an allegory that deals with gender and class, as well as generational conflict. I just don't think it makes for a very interesting watch (which is something wholly subjective). Kuroneko, on the other hand, is not as renowned for having deep themes, but the way it's made is utterly hypnotic.

I'm all for movies that have something relevant to say, but their thematic substance is worth of praise so far as the execution does it justice.

I really find it strange how different people see these two films. IMO Onibaba is the better film and far more hypnotic while the later film, Kuroneko, seems to cover the same theme's and is really a sister film to Onibaba. I saw Onibaba first and Kuroneka second which makes me wonder if that has any bearing on my experience with the films.

I think a lot of the Symbolism in Onibaba is missed by western audiences. There is a lot of Noh theater involved in this film. Which is evident by the Hannya mask. Its use in Noh is meant to portray the souls of women who have become demons through obsession or jealousy. Matter a fact there are different Noh masks for every archetype, characters status and even animals.

Frankly I find it hard not to see how hypnotic and beautifully crafted both these films are. IMO they are anything but boring, but I think a lot of the perceived 'slow grind' vary's by experience. I know in my early days most movies that didn't involve ever changing plots and were more emotional or inner would bore me to tears, but one also has to understand the Noh reference. If you've ever seen Noh theatre it is a very very slow, subtle experience with the actors movements being methodical and deliberate to a snails pace.

Onibaba was a fairly large departure in Japanese cinema at the time as most films in this era glamorized the Samurai and the violence. The director, being born in 1912 and being a native of Hiroshima, obviously had a few things to say about violence and destruction in the world. When the ladies mask is peeled off in the film the underlying look was designed by Shindo himself based off of pictures of Hiroshima victims.

There is a reason the film opens looking up from within the deep dark hole where the women dump their victims bodies. With the opening lines "The Hole, Deep and Dark. It's Darkness has lasted since ancient times" This Film is soaked in the blood of that darkness from beginning to end. A darkness put upon man by other men. The spoils of war and it's rewards go to the leaders and warlords while on both sides the meek and lower class suffer the unimaginable horrors that war creates in its wake.

According to the director the reeds represent the world. These two demon hags (oni=demon)-baba=old hags) struggle to survive and life is cheap and violent. "In the reeds they are hidden & unseen by Lords & Politicians". This comes from an interview in 72' with Joan Mellen on the Criterion disc.

I think the film is showing how wide war's devastation is and how just through the sheer humanistic desire for survival and the needs of humans like food, clothing, shelter and sex can turn average people into demons that survive off the misery of others. And how war cheapens life all around it.

I must also point out the soundtrack. An amazingly minimalist orchestration of drums and rhythmic peaks and valleys.

I can accept peoples opinions of a film, but it's hard to see a film with this much thought and artistic sweat and blood put into it be described as a cheap exploitation film that wants to show breasts to sell tickets.

[Rich Pure Doom]

Originally Posted by Banned User

I can accept peoples opinions of a film, but it's hard to see a film with this much thought and artistic sweat and blood put into it be described as a cheap exploitation film that wants to show breasts to sell tickets.

You seem stuck on that comment of mine so let me explain it better. Do I think the entire point of the film is to show boobs? Of course not. Do I think they are there for exploitative reasons and as you said "to sell more tickets"? Absolutely. That's just how it came across for me. We can argue over what Shindo's intentions were all day, but that's what I felt while watching.

[regeyer]

All i know is that I really like Kuroneko and this thread has me wanting to check Onibaba out. So I reserved the Criterion DVD at the library today. I should have it by next week.

[Ray Jackson]

Originally Posted by Rich Pure Doom

Onibaba:

[Show spoiler] is exploitation nonsense disguised as an art film. Sure, the mask imagery towards the end is incredibly striking and there are the occasional slow motion shots of weeds (CLEARLY AN ART FILM), but besides that, this is a miserable slog of a film that is depressing to endure.

This must've been quite the experience in 1964 Japan simply for the amount of boobs you get to see. Seriously, boobs are all over the screen for seemingly no reason at all in most scenes. It just became silly at a certain point.

[Show spoiler]This is coming from a guy who loves boobs. This would've worked twice as well in a format similar to Kwaidan, at half the length. Onibaba is the type of cinema that deems it artful to wallow in misery that I just can't stand.

Could you elaborate on this particular point?

[Show spoiler]

[SuperFlyHighGuy]

Onibaba is indeed a masterful film and definitely unforgettable. I first saw it on VHS like 25 years ago cause my roommates and I were cruising the video store for something bizarre to watch and the cover was inviting. Afterwards, my uneducated, juvenile and drug-addled mind may not have understood what I just saw, but it started me down a long path of finding more classic Japanese films of the challenging and bizarre...which still continues on. And Onibaba is still great.

Criterion needs to upgrade both this and Jigoku.

[AaronJ]

I have yet to see Onibaba, for which I feel very guilty.

[Banned User]

Originally Posted by SuperFlyHighGuy

Criterion needs to upgrade both this and Jigoku.

Jigoku is indeed a strange film & you mentioning it right now and the timing of this Criterion post is strange. Maybe the universe is signalling it's time for a Bluray

https://twitter.com/Criterion/status...05064635023360

[dwk]

Originally Posted by CODE RED DVD

i always viewed the film as a Art horror film.

Man, I'd love a Criterion closet video or Adventures in Moviegoing with Banana Man.

[Rzzzz]

Originally Posted by CODE RED DVD

i always viewed the film as a Art horror film.

Speaking of Art horror, I just watched Goke, Body Snatcher From Hell. Wow, what a movie. Criterion needs to upgrade this to blu-ray. I love the Japanese acting style. I find it highly entertaining....

[Mike0284]

[sandman007]

Originally Posted by Mike0284

I kind of like it in its simplicity.

[ravenus]

^With all those discs in, it'd be a frakking heavy book to actually sit down and read.

[Gambit1138]

Originally Posted by ravenus

^With all those discs in, it'd be a frakking heavy book to actually sit down and read.

I got the impression that the book and the disc compendium are separate entities.

The disc listing implies that too:

"...Accompanied by a 248-page book with essays on each program, as well as by more than thirty hours of supplemental features..."

"PLUS: A lavishly illustrated 248-page book, featuring essays on the films by critics, scholars, and authors including Cowie, Alexander Chee, Molly Haskell, Karan Mahajan, Fernanda Solórzano, and many others, along with selections from remarks and texts by Bergman himself"